[350 GH/s] "Eligius" (experimental) pool: almost feeless PPS, hoppers welcome

[SoreGums]

Why is the share rejection rate of Eligius for me consistently worse than other pools with LP? I've seen Continuum, Bitcoin Pool, Eclipse, and even bitcoin.cz (which doesn't have LP) all do better than Eligius in this respect.

my stale here is the same as slush/btcmine... ~not much.

i have fairly solid connection (804GB data for june, upto 459GB for july so far, 7th is anniversary. 20Mbps/2Mbps down/up adsl2+annexM), maybe this helps?

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[Yeti]

Why is the share rejection rate of Eligius for me consistently worse than other pools with LP? I've seen Continuum, Bitcoin Pool, Eclipse, and even bitcoin.cz (which doesn't have LP) all do better than Eligius in this respect.

Yeah, this concerns me as well. Every time I look at my miner to check if it's doing ok, within minutes it shows a "timeout - can't connect" warning and about 8% of the found shares do never get to Eligius. That is also why my hashrate is under-reported. After the next payout I will give BTCGuild another try.

[Luke-Jr]

Why is the share rejection rate of Eligius for me consistently worse than other pools with LP? I've seen Continuum, Bitcoin Pool, Eclipse, and even bitcoin.cz (which doesn't have LP) all do better than Eligius in this respect.

Yeah, this concerns me as well. Every time I look at my miner to check if it's doing ok, within minutes it shows a "timeout - can't connect" warning and about 8% of the found shares do never get to Eligius. That is also why my hashrate is under-reported. After the next payout I will give BTCGuild another try.

Try the bleeding-edge DiabloMiner (I don't know what version; Diablo just fixed it a few days ago) or my branch of poclbm, both of which have been made more robust to handle network issues (which should hopefully be much less with the big upgrade).

[Yeti]

Thanks for the hint! I am actually using DiabloMiner, because I could never strangle the python (neither phoenix nor poclbm) and will update right away.

[bitcoin0918]

I have been using guiminer+poclbm and consistently getting under 2% stale, currently at 0.8%. And this is on my blazing fast 768 kbps connection.

[bitcoin0918]

Ha! Just as I say that, the stale rate jumps to 12%!

[Yeti]

Yeah, that's because of the extreme luck the pool is experiencing right now. I got 7 stale hashes in 15 minutes, before 200 blocks without incident (new DiabloMiner version, thanks Luke-Jr!).

When luck hits, it seems there are a lot more collisions resulting in stale hashes for those that are a bit too late in transmitting.

[shamathana]

about a week ago i had a smaller reward than it probably should:
my shares: 28 total: 470,841 reward: 0.00246757 BTC block http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000004c59c645e133dc783c9efcc355165487b46b24cfe625f79b4f5
but 50 * (28 / 470 841) = 0.00297340291 so just 5/6 paid out

it's not much, but if it sums up...

[GimEEE]

about a week ago i had a smaller reward than it probably should:
my shares: 28 total: 470,841 reward: 0.00246757 BTC block http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000004c59c645e133dc783c9efcc355165487b46b24cfe625f79b4f5
but 50 * (28 / 470 841) = 0.00297340291 so just 5/6 paid out

it's not much, but if it sums up...

Was that around June 14th? Thats when the maximumpps shorting system was implemented.
maybe if you link to your stats page it will be easier to research, like this:
http://eligius.st/~artefact2/blocks/1QEkXwhhHbaBCfmEHY7bh8QNPVkFtorQkK
Now for that address, you can see the maximum pps shorting did it's job during these rounds:
1h2m   4s   3,338/145,196=   2.2990 %   0.29390580 BTC (should be 1.1495)
16m43s   854/39,560=   2.1587 %   0.07508482 BTC (1.07935)
3h22m34s   5,498/470,841=   1.1677 %   0.48443702 BTC (.58385)
1h38m18s   5,022/239,107=   2.1003 %   0.44257700 BTC (1.05015)
29m49s   1,578/72,605=   2.1734 %   0.13906552 BTC (1.0867)
1h23m24s   3,817/176,193=   2.1664 %   0.33638325 BTC (1.0832)
For a total shorting of around 4BTC which wasn't made up for (by even .01BTC) in the longer round below that awarded the expected amounts of 50 BTC * % contributed:
4h   34m   14s no reimbursement
1h   33m   52s no reimbursement   
4h   6m   41s no reimbursement
9h   33m   13s no reimbursement
3h   22m   34s no reimbursement
2h   9m   54s no reimbursement

Coupled with the almost 7 BTC that the pool acknowledges it owes him but presumably has not yet made plans to pay him, I can see why this miner left and never returned to eligius.

If you have any disagreement on the math, PLMK where my mistake was.

There's a reason why all the top hashers have been with eligius less than 1 week:
After someone screws you out of BTC, would you keep mining with them?
Hopefully he won't do it to the new users, but you've all been warned. . .

[Luke-Jr]

Coupled with the almost 7 BTC that the pool acknowledges it owes him but presumably has not yet made plans to pay him, I can see why this miner left and never returned to eligius.

If you have any disagreement on the math, PLMK where my mistake was.

There's a reason why all the top hashers have been with eligius less than 1 week:
After someone screws you out of BTC, would you keep mining with them?
Hopefully he won't do it to the new users, but you've all been warned. . .

Please stop trying to spread FUD. As you admit, the pool acknowledges the correct unpaid balance of 6.31658302 BTC (which isn't "almost 7"-- where did you learn math?).

[GimEEE]

Coupled with the almost 7 BTC that the pool acknowledges it owes him but presumably has not yet made plans to pay him, I can see why this miner left and never returned to eligius.

If you have any disagreement on the math, PLMK where my mistake was.

There's a reason why all the top hashers have been with eligius less than 1 week:
After someone screws you out of BTC, would you keep mining with them?
Hopefully he won't do it to the new users, but you've all been warned. . .

Please stop trying to spread FUD. As you admit, the pool acknowledges the correct unpaid balance of 6.31658302 BTC (which isn't "almost 7"-- where did you learn math?).

You're not going to pay him the money from eu? I thought you would acknowledged that debt also.
Since it's closer to 7 than it is to 6 --> almost 7, no need to put out a bunch of decimals, we see you owe a lot, that's all that matters.
Also, I guess you can't argue with the facts on the maximum pps shorting system that looted us.

Be careful miners, there's reports the stats pages are eliminated after a week of inactivity, whether or not eligius still owes you money.

I'll be sure to edit the facts if eligius ever comes clean and pays out the money it borrowed (without permission). It's just wrong. . .
If you didn't take work from hundreds of miners then fail to pay us, I wouldn't need to spread the truth. . .

[GimEEE]

Hey GimEEE,
I'm not being a smart arse here, but I'm wondering if you realise how the score based system Luke Jr uses works? Ignore my post if you do, but I noticed in your post:

(while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

If you mean the EU server, this is how the score based system works - your shares decay over time, you get the same for longer rounds as shorter ones, and shares contributed at the start of the round are  worth less than those at the end (to try to reduce the value of pool hopping).
Also:

us server pps shorting

Max PPS ran on the US server for only very short period of time. And even if you did run on it for a while, you might see some short term reduction in payout the value of which you'll get back as soon as US is up.
Luke has been totally open about all this (although maybe not as clear as I'd like) and he has a long history here. I'd trust him to get you your coins if they are missing. If I've misunderstood your post, I apologise in advance.

Regarding the maximumpps shorting system, it's totally different from "score based systems" - Here we had a pool operator reducing rewards for rounds less than 90 minutes and keeping the reduction to themselves (or loaning it to themselves if you want to give him the benefit of your optimism), there was a promise that rounds later that were longer would be repaid this loaned BTC, but this repayment was never implemented. there is a typical example of how it affected a user in my post above.
Of course optimism, hope, opinion, and LOTS of WAITING would be good in this case to reach the conclusion that nothing is fishy. Can the shorted miners use all those tools to accept current situation? yes, of course, they could also get a lobotomy and accept it.
Should miners quietly accept the fact that a pool took work under explicit promises, then failed to meet the conditions promised? Apparently you're saying I should. . .
Well, I did several days of waiting and hoping and being optimistic, and it didn't deliver the coins he owed me.

[supa]

Should miners quietly accept the fact that a pool took work under explicit promises, then failed to meet the conditions promised? Apparently you're saying I should. . .
Well, I did several days of waiting and hoping and being optimistic, and it didn't deliver the coins he owed me.

This is my favorite part.

Are you running for governor of something?

Where are the explicit promises?  If we unionized and signed a contract with luke-jr, I would certainly like to know.  I would also like to know who represented me in negotiating those terms - as I'm sure I don't agree with whatever terms they chose purely out of spite.  If you're suggesting luke-jr performed the activities required of both parties in creating this contractual agreement, well... that's should be quite obvious in the ludicrous department.

I don't remember signing any long term agreements with Luke Jr. nor do I remember making any explicit commitments that I would even deliver work and on delivery of the work I never agreed to deliver.... I would get paid an amount reasonably close to my own expectations upon the delivery of the work that was never made clear.

If anything, I would insist that you pay me for failing to meet your obligation of committing work - that is, by neglecting to uphold your agreement to contribute with the rest of us you potentially cost me money.  At what time can I expect repayment of your obligations and clearly explicit promises?  In the event that you decide to neglect any rightful action on your explicit acceptance of any explicit promises, I expect a notarized letter to include any negotiation proposals in honest good-faith compromise.  If acceptable, I will also sign the document absolving any commitments you had to me by proxy of the pool.

Please be aware that there are many users of the Eligius pool and I am not responsible nor able to endorse any negotiations on their part and you may need to repeat this action in good-faith for every user.

Sincerely,
supa

PS - Bitcoin is still a very young project.  Please be aware and take proper precautions to avoid high blood pressure, nausea, male pattern baldness, hemorrhaging of soft-tissues, property damage and bodily harm during it's growth by utilizing good judgment during the journey.  This pool certainly isn't the only one with technical difficulties as the project grows and twists into something unrecognizable to the original concepts.

[Yeti]

PS - Bitcoin is still a very young project.  Please be aware and take proper precautions to avoid high blood pressure, nausea, male pattern baldness, hemorrhaging of soft-tissues, property damage and bodily harm during it's growth by utilizing good judgment during the journey.  This pool certainly isn't the only one with technical difficulties as the project grows and twists into something unrecognizable to the original concepts.

YMMD!

Also: Please ask your doctor if mining is the right choice for you!

[SoreGums]

PS - Bitcoin is still a very young project.  Please be aware and take proper precautions to avoid high blood pressure, nausea, male pattern baldness, hemorrhaging of soft-tissues, property damage and bodily harm during it's growth by utilizing good judgment during the journey.  This pool certainly isn't the only one with technical difficulties as the project grows and twists into something unrecognizable to the original concepts.

Awesome supa!

I'm just pressing the "mine" button cause I can, if I get something awesome! if I don't I'll go somewhere else/pursue some other idea. Atm I get more than I loose and Luke-Jr is a pretty cool dude, life's great =)

[GimEEE]

Explicit promise doesn't require a contract, only a condition generally that entices someone to change their position or do something they would otherwise not do.
In this case, when Eligius operator wrote to me: I'll pay you when your balance is 1BTC or more. BINGO, explicit promise.
When I relied on that promise to give him mining work = fulfilment of my part of the conditional, leaving only his promise which is broken.
As opposed to no promise: I'll pay you if I feel like.
Or implicit promis: I'll pay you in a reasonable time. (which might be harder to argue, but still possible)

This case is clearly two explicit promises that were broken:
1) Eligius failed to pay usserver users as their balance exceeded 1 BTC
2) Eligius failed to reimburse the maximumpps shorting on longer rounds (which eligius failed to reimburse the shorting on)


This is a public dispute between Eligius and myself (and the owner of all the other addresses that have been shorted and non-payed).
I don't understand the running for governor thing? or unionizing, or your involvement.
I had BTC promised to me, then the promisor reniged and failed to deliver after I delivered my part of the bargain.

Jokes are a good way to help with the sad reality of being screwed out of BTC.
Was I gullible, yeah, I mined with Eligius AFTER seeing the results of the maximumpps shorting system. I even mined AFTER he failed to pay out the > 1 BTC he owed me and trusted his promise to pay it. Maybe I'm too trusting. . .
I guess this could happen to miners on any pool, working for people who have control over large quantities of earned BTC.

[DiabloD3]

Hey GimEEE,
I'm not being a smart arse here, but I'm wondering if you realise how the score based system Luke Jr uses works? Ignore my post if you do, but I noticed in your post:

(while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

If you mean the EU server, this is how the score based system works - your shares decay over time, you get the same for longer rounds as shorter ones, and shares contributed at the start of the round are  worth less than those at the end (to try to reduce the value of pool hopping).
Also:

us server pps shorting

Max PPS ran on the US server for only very short period of time. And even if you did run on it for a while, you might see some short term reduction in payout the value of which you'll get back as soon as US is up.
Luke has been totally open about all this (although maybe not as clear as I'd like) and he has a long history here. I'd trust him to get you your coins if they are missing. If I've misunderstood your post, I apologise in advance.

Regarding the maximumpps shorting system, it's totally different from "score based systems" - Here we had a pool operator reducing rewards for rounds less than 90 minutes and keeping the reduction to themselves (or loaning it to themselves if you want to give him the benefit of your optimism), there was a promise that rounds later that were longer would be repaid this loaned BTC, but this repayment was never implemented. there is a typical example of how it affected a user in my post above.
Of course optimism, hope, opinion, and LOTS of WAITING would be good in this case to reach the conclusion that nothing is fishy. Can the shorted miners use all those tools to accept current situation? yes, of course, they could also get a lobotomy and accept it.
Should miners quietly accept the fact that a pool took work under explicit promises, then failed to meet the conditions promised? Apparently you're saying I should. . .
Well, I did several days of waiting and hoping and being optimistic, and it didn't deliver the coins he owed me.

Mod here. Don't be a jackass.

[Yeti]

[yadda yadda whine ...]
In this case, when Eligius operator wrote to me: I'll pay you when your balance is 1BTC or more. BINGO, explicit promise.
[much more whine after this]

The website reads: "This amount will be paid to you when it reaches 1 BTC or after one week of inactivity, when the pool finds a block."
The US server has not found a block in almost a week, as you know. So it can't pay out, even if your balance would be 1,000 BTC, only when it comes back up again and finds another block in which to include the transactions. Unfortunate, but you wouldn't want to sell your coins at this price anyway, right?!

IMO Luke-Jr has fulfilled this "promise" (as you call it) to the letter. The downtime on US is annoying, but where was any guaranteed uptime promised?!

[GimEEE]

Hey GimEEE,
I'm not being a smart arse here, but I'm wondering if you realise how the score based system Luke Jr uses works? Ignore my post if you do, but I noticed in your post:

(while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

If you mean the EU server, this is how the score based system works - your shares decay over time, you get the same for longer rounds as shorter ones, and shares contributed at the start of the round are  worth less than those at the end (to try to reduce the value of pool hopping).
Also:

us server pps shorting

Max PPS ran on the US server for only very short period of time. And even if you did run on it for a while, you might see some short term reduction in payout the value of which you'll get back as soon as US is up.
Luke has been totally open about all this (although maybe not as clear as I'd like) and he has a long history here. I'd trust him to get you your coins if they are missing. If I've misunderstood your post, I apologise in advance.

Regarding the maximumpps shorting system, it's totally different from "score based systems" - Here we had a pool operator reducing rewards for rounds less than 90 minutes and keeping the reduction to themselves (or loaning it to themselves if you want to give him the benefit of your optimism), there was a promise that rounds later that were longer would be repaid this loaned BTC, but this repayment was never implemented. there is a typical example of how it affected a user in my post above.
Of course optimism, hope, opinion, and LOTS of WAITING would be good in this case to reach the conclusion that nothing is fishy. Can the shorted miners use all those tools to accept current situation? yes, of course, they could also get a lobotomy and accept it.
Should miners quietly accept the fact that a pool took work under explicit promises, then failed to meet the conditions promised? Apparently you're saying I should. . .
Well, I did several days of waiting and hoping and being optimistic, and it didn't deliver the coins he owed me.

Mod here. Don't be a jackass.

Sorry for not quietly accepting the loss of BTC. . .
I'm the jackass for that.
The pool operator is totally in the right.
(that was sarcasm)

[DiabloD3]

Hey GimEEE,
I'm not being a smart arse here, but I'm wondering if you realise how the score based system Luke Jr uses works? Ignore my post if you do, but I noticed in your post:

(while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

If you mean the EU server, this is how the score based system works - your shares decay over time, you get the same for longer rounds as shorter ones, and shares contributed at the start of the round are  worth less than those at the end (to try to reduce the value of pool hopping).
Also:

us server pps shorting

Max PPS ran on the US server for only very short period of time. And even if you did run on it for a while, you might see some short term reduction in payout the value of which you'll get back as soon as US is up.
Luke has been totally open about all this (although maybe not as clear as I'd like) and he has a long history here. I'd trust him to get you your coins if they are missing. If I've misunderstood your post, I apologise in advance.

Regarding the maximumpps shorting system, it's totally different from "score based systems" - Here we had a pool operator reducing rewards for rounds less than 90 minutes and keeping the reduction to themselves (or loaning it to themselves if you want to give him the benefit of your optimism), there was a promise that rounds later that were longer would be repaid this loaned BTC, but this repayment was never implemented. there is a typical example of how it affected a user in my post above.
Of course optimism, hope, opinion, and LOTS of WAITING would be good in this case to reach the conclusion that nothing is fishy. Can the shorted miners use all those tools to accept current situation? yes, of course, they could also get a lobotomy and accept it.
Should miners quietly accept the fact that a pool took work under explicit promises, then failed to meet the conditions promised? Apparently you're saying I should. . .
Well, I did several days of waiting and hoping and being optimistic, and it didn't deliver the coins he owed me.

Mod here. Don't be a jackass.

Sorry for not quietly accepting the loss of BTC. . .
I'm the jackass for that.
The pool operator is totally in the right.
(that was sarcasm)

Then use a different pool.