[XMR] Monero Speculation

[Hueristic]

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

[ArticMine]

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

[smooth]

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

[ArticMine]

...
The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

Interesting. This creates an additional exchange risk that could impact those that do not lend for margin trading.

[smooth]

...
The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

Interesting. This creates an additional exchange risk that could impact those that do not lend for margin trading.

TLDR "Hold your own private keys"

[TPTB_need_war]

Micro transactions is one thing that can be easily provided by a traditional centralized ledger provider that is funded by Monero.

Won't scale. I explained why if you had clicked my quote to read the rest of my post.

The first thing to understand here is that micro transactions by their very nature fall way below any AML/KNC regulatory requirements. Someone funding an account with say 10 USD, in order to pay for say 10,000 page views at 0.001 USD per page view is not the concern of financial regulators.

The merchants receiving the payouts do fall under AML/KYC. And any MSB has to register with FinCEN. Also criminals will structure their microtransactions across multiple anonymous user accounts to side-step limits, thus your point really does not apply.

This issue with micro transactions with the current fiat payment systems is not the actual micro transactions themselves but how do you fund the account in the first place

Yes. Credit cards can be incentivize massive fraud especially if they can pay themselves as merchants.

But the scaling problem of centralized ledgers is just as onerous an issue too.

, especially if anonymity is desired and this is done across international boundaries? As for the micro transaction provider themselves there is no reasonable reason for them to keep track of who sent 0.001 USD to whom. If they do not have a strict privacy policy then the market can find another provider. Filing millions of suspicious transaction reports for amounts under 0.01 USD each is not a valid reason and could easily land the provider who does this into serious legal trouble with the agency that was the target of such a denial of service attack.

Now you understand why a centralized ledger (and a centralized aggregator of funds) will never scale nor work in practice due to FinCEN requirements to avoid criminal structuring.

[Hueristic]

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

Maybe they are running a delay? Or they feel the risk is minimal and coverable. After all they do control all the data right?

[dEBRUYNE]

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

Maybe they are running a delay? Or they feel the risk is minimal and coverable. After all they do control all the data right?

They run a liquidation algorithm that is supposed to prevent flashcrashes which could result in "socialized losses".

[ArticMine]

....
Won't scale. I explained why if you had clicked my quote to read the rest of my post.

There can be many central ledger providers so this is not an issue. Once one makes it easy to fund and return funds it is easy for there to be many different providers who could specialize in publishers in different jurisdictions. This means that an aggregator can choose to only deal with a limited number of jurisdictions. We must keep in mind that Google has been doing this with adsense advertising for well over a decade. The typical market value of a page view with decent content is well under 0.01 USD. Facebook by the way does far worse than the market average under 0.001 USD per page view.  
 

...
The merchants receiving the payouts do fall under AML/KYC. And any MSB has to register with FinCEN. Also criminals will structure their microtransactions across multiple anonymous user accounts to side-step limits, thus your point really does not apply.

The aggregator not the merchants could be an MSB and would be a "Seller of Prepaid Access" so the following applies: https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/html/20111102.html It would likely fall into the closed loop exception if the merchants / publishers are vetted as legit. The limit is this case is 2000 USD in loads per day and I am talking of 10 USD per load.

...
Yes. Credit cards can be incentivize massive fraud especially if they can pay themselves as merchants.

But the scaling problem of centralized ledgers is just as onerous an issue too.

Yes but as I mentioned above this can be addressed by having many centralized ledgers.
 

...
Now you understand why a centralized ledger (and a centralized aggregator of funds) will never scale nor work in practice due to FinCEN requirements to avoid criminal structuring.

The  due diligence is done on the payment end. If someone tries to use this to launder money it would be easily apparent by looking at the click patterns on the front website much like click fraud is currently detected. So if there is something clearly amiss the aggregator can detect this, and file one rather than millions of suspicious activity reports.

By the way I have been involved with web based advertising as a publisher for well over twelve years so I am familiar with this business. What I am suggesting simply replaces the advertising component with a pay per page view component for a comparable yield  to the publisher.

Edit: Closed loop prepaid access can also work well for in person transactions since it only has to deal with one jurisdiction making compliance very simple even if registration is required. This is the critical advantage of separating this from the actual coin protocol. A very good example why this kind of separation works very well is Bitcoin ATMs since the operator only has to deal with one regulator namely that where the Bitcoin ATM is located.

[Hueristic]

They run a liquidation algorithm that is supposed to prevent flashcrashes which could result in "socialized losses".

And how would we even know if they did that or have not already done it?

[GingerAle]

Micro transactions is one thing that can be easily provided by a traditional centralized ledger provider that is funded by Monero.

Won't scale. I explained why if you had clicked my quote to read the rest of my post.

The first thing to understand here is that micro transactions by their very nature fall way below any AML/KNC regulatory requirements. Someone funding an account with say 10 USD, in order to pay for say 10,000 page views at 0.001 USD per page view is not the concern of financial regulators.

The merchants receiving the payouts do fall under AML/KYC. And any MSB has to register with FinCEN. Also criminals will structure their microtransactions across multiple anonymous user accounts to side-step limits, thus your point really does not apply.

This issue with micro transactions with the current fiat payment systems is not the actual micro transactions themselves but how do you fund the account in the first place

Yes. Credit cards can be incentivize massive fraud especially if they can pay themselves as merchants.

But the scaling problem of centralized ledgers is just as onerous an issue too.

, especially if anonymity is desired and this is done across international boundaries? As for the micro transaction provider themselves there is no reasonable reason for them to keep track of who sent 0.001 USD to whom. If they do not have a strict privacy policy then the market can find another provider. Filing millions of suspicious transaction reports for amounts under 0.01 USD each is not a valid reason and could easily land the provider who does this into serious legal trouble with the agency that was the target of such a denial of service attack.

Now you understand why a centralized ledger (and a centralized aggregator of funds) will never scale nor work in practice due to FinCEN requirements to avoid criminal structuring.

The microtransaction thing is solved by cryptonite (the coin). I forget its three letter thing. I don't know exactly how they coded it, but the ledger is broken into 2 parts as I understand it. 1 part is an account database (non-ledger, i.e. malleable) which maintains balances of what people own, and then there's a rolling standard blockchain. This nullifies the scaling problem in terms of storage. In terms of relay and conf times, thats a different issue.

IMO, this type of distributed-database + mini-blockchain design will be the next big thing in Monero post RingCT, adaptive fees, etc. Goodbye blockchain bloat. Hello forever money. 

[explorer]

Rising on low volume, .00318.  How much higher before the pull back?

[Hueristic]

Rising on low volume, .00318.  How much higher before the pull back?

Good sign seeing it here at this time. Well not so much for us that want moar.

[explorer]

Buy depth off the chart again

[aminorex]

Long stretches of boredom punctusted with intense flurries of activity.  Very profitable periods, for those who make market conservatively.  I wonder, though... Will we ever see 300ksat again

[explorer]

Long stretches of boredom punctusted with intense flurries of activity.  Very profitable periods, for those who make market conservatively.  I wonder, though... Will we ever see 300ksat again

I hope so.  It looks like I might not get my share, otherwise    Leaving my traps in place for now.

[TrueCryptonaire]

I wonder when we run out of dumpers... Mining do not produce more than 9800 coins per day so the mining is not the source of dumping we have been seen. Obviously some bigger guys need to dump their precious gem stones on the market after green days causing some bloodish candles. I hope there are spirit of soldiers to tackle the dumpers and teach them a lesson and pump it even higher after a dump.

[explorer]

I wonder when we run out of dumpers... Mining do not produce more than 9800 coins per day so the mining is not the source of dumping we have been seen. Obviously some bigger guys need to dump their precious gem stones on the market after green days causing some bloodish candles. I hope there are spirit of soldiers to tackle the dumpers and teach them a lesson and pump it even higher after a dump.

No dumpers tonight (this morning for you  ) just buyers.  Support is really lagging though, nothing much to dump into.

ADD:
Well, someone took what little was bid. 

[TrueCryptonaire]

There are basically two reasons why you might want to dump:

1) You have 0 faith in the coin and want to get rid off your coins asap.
2) Manipulation and trying to create panic and lower entry points

If you are a legitimate seller you want to set up a sell wall near the market and waite until the bulls will nibble it piece by piece. This is pretty easy to do when we see these green candles taking over the markets.

[klee]

Monero:



Price Objective for this congestion area: 0.00972

http://stockcharts.com/school/doku.php?id=chart_school:chart_analysis:pnf_charts:pnf_horizontal_count