[ANN][SLR] SolarCoin | PoW to PoS v. 2.0 | Solar Proof of Generation (§1 = 1MWh)

[CryptoNick]

Over a 40 year period it does.

SNIP...

I'd suggest you head over to solarcoin.org. You have a lot of misconceptions about this coin. Also a good read is found here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1802166

Solarcoin is designed as a feed in tariff for solar power production. It's not designed to replace the value of solar energy, but to encourage more solar energy production.

I am reading the paper.

Gold’s primary value is in the belief that others value it.

Not entirely true! Gold is used in Electronics for its physical properties and in Processors. You can say people believe products are worth a certain amount and that makes the Gold appropriate to that amount, but it is not based on pure belief, since it is a finite resource that takes Energy to produce and Energy to transform. Even a Jeweler requires energy to transform it.

Basing the economy of the coin on a DeKo is a good idea since it will always be worth what those relative costs are in the real world. But this always relates to FIAT since that is what is paid to create worth for a MWh. To take FIAT out of the equation and just say the coin is worth 1-1MWh won't get any traction since you have to be able to sell the coin for value based on that MWh. Why would people buy the coin just to keep it as though that idea creates value? Even backing with Claims to prove you paid coin for those Claims doesn't create value or make people want to buy a Solar Panel.

Look at how my idea turns the coin on its ear and you may want to rethink the concepts of the coin.

[1715299346]

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[1715299346]

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[nickgogerty]

Over a 40 year period it does.

SNIP...

I'd suggest you head over to solarcoin.org. You have a lot of misconceptions about this coin. Also a good read is found here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1802166

Solarcoin is designed as a feed in tariff for solar power production. It's not designed to replace the value of solar energy, but to encourage more solar energy production.

I am reading the paper.

Gold’s primary value is in the belief that others value it.

Not entirely true! Gold is used in Electronics for its physical properties and in Processors. You can say people believe products are worth a certain amount and that makes the Gold appropriate to that amount, but it is not based on pure belief, since it is a finite resource that takes Energy to produce and Energy to transform. Even a Jeweler requires energy to transform it.

Basing the economy of the coin on a DeKo is a good idea since it will always be worth what those relative costs are in the real world. But this always relates to FIAT since that is what is paid to create worth for a MWh. To take FIAT out of the equation and just say the coin is worth 1-1MWh won't get any traction since you have to be able to sell the coin for value based on that MWh. Why would people buy the coin just to keep it as though that idea creates value? Even backing with Claims to prove you paid coin for those Claims doesn't create value or make people want to buy a Solar Panel.

Look at how my idea turns the coin on its ear and you may want to rethink the concepts of the coin.

ok. I am talking my own book here (pun intended) but you may enjoy the monetary / credit section of thenatureofvalue.com it briefly addresses the role of gold etc.  Peter Bernstein did great work on this. Teh electronic etc. functional use for gold is minimal. Gold's monetary role is a fun historic relic. you may like this explanation relative to other elements on the periodic chart: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/02/15/131430755/a-chemist-explains-why-gold-beat-out-lithium-osmium-einsteinium  gold has properties that lend itself to being used for the social function of money, but money is ultimately a social protocol and belief system not a physical reality.

[CryptoNick]

Over a 40 year period it does.

So you have done all the math for every possible claimant or I guess you just pool it? If the coins are never claimed then the disparity is shown in the market since they can be claimed later. So you always base your Market Cap on unclaimed coins and you also base their output prior to your coin's creation. While you give the same value to the PoW coins as you do the Claim coins. Using PoW means you use energy and do not create energy when creating coins, good thing there is only 200Mhash as it is low energy consumption. This was an oversight.

So claim coins will be sold off to FIAT at a low price. Below 1MWh per coin. These claimants do not care what they sell at for free money. This will erode the value. Since you want to PEG the price at 1MWh per coin you would have to create a buy wall vs FIAT to sustain it. Otherwise it would not be equal in FIAT. Saying 1 Coin Equals 1MWh is only truthful when not compared to FIAT, but when you pay for a MWh how much does that cost and what can your market bear? Seeing that it will be rife with speculators and whales buying and selling it, the manipulation will be rampant. People wanting to get out of the market into FIAT will take losses to the manipulations making it impossible to equal 1MWh cost per coin per BitCoin value... since we know it will not cost more than 1MWh per coin, the price can only be eroded. Not to mention the people who got in on the PoW at 100 per block can manipulate the price also.

So lets say on average a MWh costs $90 on the low end. In some US states it goes as high as $120 per MWh. The cost per coin right now is .00001788 x $232 per BitCoin equals $0.0041 per SLR Coin. This just proves my point. Each coin is not even worth half a penny yet 1 Coin = 1MWh. You don't even have the market cap of a Million AAA Energizer Batteries! So the price per coin should be around .388 per SLR coin to start with or slightly lower reflecting wholesale. So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green.

So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green<< The true value of the coin will be derived from regular household PV systems and not from the solar farm claimants. A household which generates 15 to 30 SLR in a year is not going to sell his coins for $0.0041 each. He is surely going to place more value on his year long output than that.

The price was bought and sold today at $0.0041 and you are telling me it won't ever do that? How would a person selling for even $1.00 get their expected money out of the market ever? More claimants come forward and will sell their coins! They do not want to keep them. Then these sells are bought by the orders at .00001788 and only if there is demand for the coin will the price go up. So the Claimants have no stake in the coin or its success but the Households do. Holding a coin at this point and placing a value at close to the cost of MWh would mean you will be the last sale on the exchange when it takes place 40 years from now and it could be because you set that price at todays rates and eventually the market moved there due to inflation.

An SLR is an SLR whether it is from a Household or Solar Farm or PoW. Meaning the credit pool is still there looming, even if the coins are never distributed people will be wary of this impending credit supply hitting the market and crashing it since we know, for a fact, 1 SLR will NEVER equal more than 1MWh. Where you buy in will only show how wise of an investment you made since you don't know if these pool credit coins will dump on your positions suddenly. Only after all pool credit coins have been credited can the monetary system stabilize.

So if I buy 1,00,000 SLR for .0041 cents and the price goes up to .41 cents I sell off my SLR and create no worth but take money from the economy. Now imagine how many others would do the same. This is where the speculators manipulate and churn out earnings from your coin whether you like it or not! There is no benefit to keeping SLR for a long term, even if a merchant sells you something in SLR they have to equate the cost to FIAT and then pay for the cost of their goods in FIAT. They always have to get out and people have to want to get in for some reason.

What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins.

[vipgelsi]

Cryptonick Tell that to the people who held Bitcoin from .01 cent and did not sell early on.

I am holding my Solarcoins for a long time $$$

[CryptoNick]

Cryptonick Tell that to the people who held Bitcoin from .01 cent and did not sell early on.

I am holding my Solarcoins for a long time $$$

Good deal, I hope it all works out. You going to sell to BitCoin/FIAT as it jumps up like thousands of other investors? That is part of the problem and the price will slam when people sell off. More people have to be buying than selling. Most people want to buy low sell high and are not going to buy your positions out.

[CryptoNick]

Over a 40 year period it does.

SNIP...

I'd suggest you head over to solarcoin.org. You have a lot of misconceptions about this coin. Also a good read is found here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1802166

Solarcoin is designed as a feed in tariff for solar power production. It's not designed to replace the value of solar energy, but to encourage more solar energy production.

I am reading the paper.

Gold’s primary value is in the belief that others value it.

Not entirely true! Gold is used in Electronics for its physical properties and in Processors. You can say people believe products are worth a certain amount and that makes the Gold appropriate to that amount, but it is not based on pure belief, since it is a finite resource that takes Energy to produce and Energy to transform. Even a Jeweler requires energy to transform it.

Basing the economy of the coin on a DeKo is a good idea since it will always be worth what those relative costs are in the real world. But this always relates to FIAT since that is what is paid to create worth for a MWh. To take FIAT out of the equation and just say the coin is worth 1-1MWh won't get any traction since you have to be able to sell the coin for value based on that MWh. Why would people buy the coin just to keep it as though that idea creates value? Even backing with Claims to prove you paid coin for those Claims doesn't create value or make people want to buy a Solar Panel.

Look at how my idea turns the coin on its ear and you may want to rethink the concepts of the coin.

ok. I am talking my own book here (pun intended) but you may enjoy the monetary / credit section of thenatureofvalue.com it briefly addresses the role of gold etc.  Peter Bernstein did great work on this. Teh electronic etc. functional use for gold is minimal. Gold's monetary role is a fun historic relic. you may like this explanation relative to other elements on the periodic chart: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/02/15/131430755/a-chemist-explains-why-gold-beat-out-lithium-osmium-einsteinium  gold has properties that lend itself to being used for the social function of money, but money is ultimately a social protocol and belief system not a physical reality.

I can agree a gold backed system is antiquated, it just isn't an entirely truthful statement. Since Gold will always have a degree of usage not just a belief system. Very well written book though.

[y_virtual]

Over a 40 year period it does.

So you have done all the math for every possible claimant or I guess you just pool it? If the coins are never claimed then the disparity is shown in the market since they can be claimed later. So you always base your Market Cap on unclaimed coins and you also base their output prior to your coin's creation. While you give the same value to the PoW coins as you do the Claim coins. Using PoW means you use energy and do not create energy when creating coins, good thing there is only 200Mhash as it is low energy consumption. This was an oversight.

So claim coins will be sold off to FIAT at a low price. Below 1MWh per coin. These claimants do not care what they sell at for free money. This will erode the value. Since you want to PEG the price at 1MWh per coin you would have to create a buy wall vs FIAT to sustain it. Otherwise it would not be equal in FIAT. Saying 1 Coin Equals 1MWh is only truthful when not compared to FIAT, but when you pay for a MWh how much does that cost and what can your market bear? Seeing that it will be rife with speculators and whales buying and selling it, the manipulation will be rampant. People wanting to get out of the market into FIAT will take losses to the manipulations making it impossible to equal 1MWh cost per coin per BitCoin value... since we know it will not cost more than 1MWh per coin, the price can only be eroded. Not to mention the people who got in on the PoW at 100 per block can manipulate the price also.

So lets say on average a MWh costs $90 on the low end. In some US states it goes as high as $120 per MWh. The cost per coin right now is .00001788 x $232 per BitCoin equals $0.0041 per SLR Coin. This just proves my point. Each coin is not even worth half a penny yet 1 Coin = 1MWh. You don't even have the market cap of a Million AAA Energizer Batteries! So the price per coin should be around .388 per SLR coin to start with or slightly lower reflecting wholesale. So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green.

So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green<< The true value of the coin will be derived from regular household PV systems and not from the solar farm claimants. A household which generates 15 to 30 SLR in a year is not going to sell his coins for $0.0041 each. He is surely going to place more value on his year long output than that.

The price was bought and sold today at $0.0041 and you are telling me it won't ever do that? How would a person selling for even $1.00 get their expected money out of the market ever? More claimants come forward and will sell their coins! They do not want to keep them. Then these sells are bought by the orders at .00001788 and only if there is demand for the coin will the price go up. So the Claimants have no stake in the coin or its success but the Households do. Holding a coin at this point and placing a value at close to the cost of MWh would mean you will be the last sale on the exchange when it takes place 40 years from now and it could be because you set that price at todays rates and eventually the market moved there due to inflation.

An SLR is an SLR whether it is from a Household or Solar Farm or PoW. Meaning the credit pool is still there looming, even if the coins are never distributed people will be wary of this impending credit supply hitting the market and crashing it since we know, for a fact, 1 SLR will NEVER equal more than 1MWh. Where you buy in will only show how wise of an investment you made since you don't know if these pool credit coins will dump on your positions suddenly. Only after all pool credit coins have been credited can the monetary system stabilize.

So if I buy 1,00,000 SLR for .0041 cents and the price goes up to .41 cents I sell off my SLR and create no worth but take money from the economy. Now imagine how many others would do the same. This is where the speculators manipulate and churn out earnings from your coin whether you like it or not! There is no benefit to keeping SLR for a long term, even if a merchant sells you something in SLR they have to equate the cost to FIAT and then pay for the cost of their goods in FIAT. They always have to get out and people have to want to get in for some reason.

What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins.

That is true ONLY if the crypto exchange is the ONLY place Crypto is valued to FIAT. Right now SLR is STILL yet another crypto. But the project is moving forward. PoW reward has been reduced 100 times already, and is about to end as soon as development of the PoS wallet is done (may be any moment). So the only ways people will be able to get more SLR from that moment on will be from their claims, from the exchange, from PoS staking. Last mined SLR piles are being sold on the exchange right now, and that's it! Most participants in the process until now are here to keep their SLR so that the project moves forward. Exchange traders - they will adjust to the market. And the market? The exchanges will eventually be a fraction of the goods & services market where SLR will be accepted.

"Why would people buy the coin just to keep it as though that idea creates value?" - Well.... you may have to rethink your idea of Crypto altogether. I buy coins, or mine coins, or CLAIM coins, to be able to PAY with them (for services, for goods, for FIAT, for other coins). Now, taking FIAT out of the equation is what really does me ONLY good - and I know that since the first time I made a purchase, in crypto, online, no FIAT involved. FIAT is out there - let it be, will not take it out of the equation - just like USD and EUR and JPY and CHF etc. are out there, in the FIAT world.

"Even backing with Claims to prove you paid coin for those Claims doesn't create value or make people want to buy a Solar Panel." - People now KNOW how much FIAT they invested to produce MWh from Solar. They now KNOW how much FIAT they are paid for 1MWh from Solar. Now they also start claiming their SLR. So what do they do - keep them? They want to spend them. Crypto ecosystem goes forward, fast. Merchants KNOW that - they feel it! Solar Panel stores WILL start accepting SLR payments as soon as their customers request that. And the trade value of SLR? Well, I know both cost and sale price of 1MWh, right? And I do NOT want to spend FIAT any more, only SLR. Do you know why? See above. So how much is SLR? You know what? Really... I do NOT need to even know how much is 1MWH in FIAT any more!

Got it?

"What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins." - Who says what will be "real money" in 1 year from now? We do it. Any ideas, like yours, are welcome! We are here to make SLR real money. Are you on?

[mazzaneo]

Over a 40 year period it does.

So you have done all the math for every possible claimant or I guess you just pool it? If the coins are never claimed then the disparity is shown in the market since they can be claimed later. So you always base your Market Cap on unclaimed coins and you also base their output prior to your coin's creation. While you give the same value to the PoW coins as you do the Claim coins. Using PoW means you use energy and do not create energy when creating coins, good thing there is only 200Mhash as it is low energy consumption. This was an oversight.

So claim coins will be sold off to FIAT at a low price. Below 1MWh per coin. These claimants do not care what they sell at for free money. This will erode the value. Since you want to PEG the price at 1MWh per coin you would have to create a buy wall vs FIAT to sustain it. Otherwise it would not be equal in FIAT. Saying 1 Coin Equals 1MWh is only truthful when not compared to FIAT, but when you pay for a MWh how much does that cost and what can your market bear? Seeing that it will be rife with speculators and whales buying and selling it, the manipulation will be rampant. People wanting to get out of the market into FIAT will take losses to the manipulations making it impossible to equal 1MWh cost per coin per BitCoin value... since we know it will not cost more than 1MWh per coin, the price can only be eroded. Not to mention the people who got in on the PoW at 100 per block can manipulate the price also.

So lets say on average a MWh costs $90 on the low end. In some US states it goes as high as $120 per MWh. The cost per coin right now is .00001788 x $232 per BitCoin equals $0.0041 per SLR Coin. This just proves my point. Each coin is not even worth half a penny yet 1 Coin = 1MWh. You don't even have the market cap of a Million AAA Energizer Batteries! So the price per coin should be around .388 per SLR coin to start with or slightly lower reflecting wholesale. So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green.

So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green<< The true value of the coin will be derived from regular household PV systems and not from the solar farm claimants. A household which generates 15 to 30 SLR in a year is not going to sell his coins for $0.0041 each. He is surely going to place more value on his year long output than that.

The price was bought and sold today at $0.0041 and you are telling me it won't ever do that? How would a person selling for even $1.00 get their expected money out of the market ever? More claimants come forward and will sell their coins! They do not want to keep them. Then these sells are bought by the orders at .00001788 and only if there is demand for the coin will the price go up. So the Claimants have no stake in the coin or its success but the Households do. Holding a coin at this point and placing a value at close to the cost of MWh would mean you will be the last sale on the exchange when it takes place 40 years from now and it could be because you set that price at todays rates and eventually the market moved there due to inflation.

An SLR is an SLR whether it is from a Household or Solar Farm or PoW. Meaning the credit pool is still there looming, even if the coins are never distributed people will be wary of this impending credit supply hitting the market and crashing it since we know, for a fact, 1 SLR will NEVER equal more than 1MWh. Where you buy in will only show how wise of an investment you made since you don't know if these pool credit coins will dump on your positions suddenly. Only after all pool credit coins have been credited can the monetary system stabilize.

So if I buy 1,00,000 SLR for .0041 cents and the price goes up to .41 cents I sell off my SLR and create no worth but take money from the economy. Now imagine how many others would do the same. This is where the speculators manipulate and churn out earnings from your coin whether you like it or not! There is no benefit to keeping SLR for a long term, even if a merchant sells you something in SLR they have to equate the cost to FIAT and then pay for the cost of their goods in FIAT. They always have to get out and people have to want to get in for some reason.

What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins.

What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. <<< One could argue that targeting mobile phone users was a closed economy 15 years ago

[Epiphany]

I must say, this is a fascinating conversation. And timely! Especially since today is my one year anniversary for discovering SolarCoin.

Reading through these comments is helping me to reflect why I am here supporting this endeavor. In a nutshell, I think Fiat and the current system are a failing system. I have held that view for a number of years as I see it deteriorate before my eyes, benefitting those at the top increasingly at the expense of just about everyone else. Fiat is necessary for now because that is how much of the world still functions. However, my belief is that 10 years from now, possibly even within five years or less, fiat will have a rude awakening. It's a MASSIVE bubble! Combined with an under estimation of the damage global warming will have and I happen to think a currency solution to address both problems is something we have to do for humanity so at least there is something for people to fall back on for trade purposes. 1 MWh of solar electricity, as they get dispersed into the economy through SolarCoin, is the best "backing" for a future currency that I can think of. I tend not to get stuck in thinking in terms of fiat for my "investment" in SLR. It's not about that for me, not even close. It's about creating a system from the ground up that can be used when the day comes that current systems no longer work for everyone. That day is already here for much of the world.

My view of the future actually hasn't changed in the past year. If anything, the bust is moving even faster than I had anticipated. The difference between now and then is my perception of it. I choose to be hopeful rather than fearful. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But what if I'm right? How do we want that world to work that isn't all about destruction and chaos? Call it pie in the sky if you want to, that's also a choice. For me, I prefer to focus on the solution rather than the problem. Will SLR be part of that solution? None of us know the answer to that yet, that's why it's called "risk".

When it comes to understanding currency, I believe the Master says it best:

[CryptoNick]

I must say, this is a fascinating conversation. And timely! Especially since today is my one year anniversary for discovering SolarCoin.

Reading through these comments is helping me to reflect why I am here supporting this endeavor. In a nutshell, I think Fiat and the current system are a failing system. I have held that view for a number of years as I see it deteriorate before my eyes, benefitting those at the top increasingly at the expense of just about everyone else. Fiat is necessary for now because that is how much of the world still functions. However, my belief is that 10 years from now, possibly even within five years or less, fiat will have a rude awakening. It's a MASSIVE bubble! Combined with an under estimation of the damage global warming will have and I happen to think a currency solution to address both problems is something we have to do for humanity so at least there is something for people to fall back on for trade purposes. 1 MWh of solar electricity, as they get dispersed into the economy through SolarCoin, is the best "backing" for a future currency that I can think of. I tend not to get stuck in thinking in terms of fiat for my "investment" in SLR. It's not about that for me, not even close. It's about creating a system from the ground up that can be used when the day comes that current systems no longer work for everyone. That day is already here for much of the world.

My view of the future actually hasn't changed in the past year. If anything, the bust is moving even faster than I had anticipated. The difference between now and then is my perception of it. I choose to be hopeful rather than fearful. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But what if I'm right? How do we want that world to work that isn't all about destruction and chaos? Call it pie in the sky if you want to, that's also a choice. For me, I prefer to focus on the solution rather than the problem. Will SLR be part of that solution? None of us know the answer to that yet, that's why it's called "risk".

When it comes to understanding currency, I believe the Master says it best:

Love it! If you are not already afraid of the structure of the Fed Reserve and the 9 Trillion off the books during the Meltdown... "You Will Be!".

I completely understand now that SLR is based off 1MWh but price doesn't mean anything externally other than what people are willing to trade for externally, right now .0041 cents. But that only matters to people who care about FIAT. Those who don't care, it is of no consequence. It is also a way to get into SLR cheaply from worthless FIAT.

My only main concerns for Crypto in general and has nothing to do with SLR, is that the end game could be destruction of FIAT and its worth caused by Crypto as a self fulfilling prophecy. Either by State Sponsored subversion in order to attack other currencies using BitCoin or funnel funds to who knows where. The fact that the US decided to allow BitCoin only shows they are even worse than the criminals on SilkRoad which collected the majority of BitCoin for illegal activities. We have seen China take the precedent of only allowing the Selling of BitCoin and no buying. This is very telling.

So when I comment on a coin it is only in hopes to benefit that coin and make it more viable.

Making the Grid work for the people in FIAT and in SLR would create an equilibrium. Wouldn't it be amazing if participants in SLR could donate a percentage of the profits sent into to the grid, and were spent on an SLR public solar farm? Then the FIAT output of that farm goes into a buy wall of SLR. This would cause a pendulum swing as the output grows the farms could grow, even exponentially if proper percentages were agreed upon. SLR would be the most solvent currency ever created! Since it would equalize to FIAT and could maximize inside of the SLR economy knowing that the power feeds it externally also. Eventually SLR would transcend the risk entirely and make it a great investment since it only grows when it is fed. Ideally then SLR puts the Power Company on notice.

All of the output of the farm would be public knowledge and the walls would shift to suit the proper pricing per MWh. The Solar Farm's could be a Co-Op to allow it to subsist legally within the endeavor of the Coin. All the coin bought from the buy wall could be burned as PoS also perpetuating the time value of the coin for the holders.

I appreciate the fact that this may not be what the community or founders want, but I feel it gives the best chance for a Bright Future!

[DoubleTrouble]

Cryptonick Tell that to the people who held Bitcoin from .01 cent and did not sell early on.

I am holding my Solarcoins for a long time $$$

Good deal, I hope it all works out. You going to sell to BitCoin/FIAT as it jumps up like thousands of other investors? That is part of the problem and the price will slam when people sell off. More people have to be buying than selling. Most people want to buy low sell high and are not going to buy your positions out.

Unfortunately this is what happens with many different crypto currencies, the problem with this is it holds the coin down when many people sell after a price rise.

[CryptoNick]

Cryptonick Tell that to the people who held Bitcoin from .01 cent and did not sell early on.

I am holding my Solarcoins for a long time $$$

Good deal, I hope it all works out. You going to sell to BitCoin/FIAT as it jumps up like thousands of other investors? That is part of the problem and the price will slam when people sell off. More people have to be buying than selling. Most people want to buy low sell high and are not going to buy your positions out.

Unfortunately this is what happens with many different crypto currencies, the problem with this is it holds the coin down when many people sell after a price rise.

Yep it has played itself out in the markets over and over again. There has to be a better way and SLR should create it!

[CryptoNick]

Over a 40 year period it does.

So you have done all the math for every possible claimant or I guess you just pool it? If the coins are never claimed then the disparity is shown in the market since they can be claimed later. So you always base your Market Cap on unclaimed coins and you also base their output prior to your coin's creation. While you give the same value to the PoW coins as you do the Claim coins. Using PoW means you use energy and do not create energy when creating coins, good thing there is only 200Mhash as it is low energy consumption. This was an oversight.

So claim coins will be sold off to FIAT at a low price. Below 1MWh per coin. These claimants do not care what they sell at for free money. This will erode the value. Since you want to PEG the price at 1MWh per coin you would have to create a buy wall vs FIAT to sustain it. Otherwise it would not be equal in FIAT. Saying 1 Coin Equals 1MWh is only truthful when not compared to FIAT, but when you pay for a MWh how much does that cost and what can your market bear? Seeing that it will be rife with speculators and whales buying and selling it, the manipulation will be rampant. People wanting to get out of the market into FIAT will take losses to the manipulations making it impossible to equal 1MWh cost per coin per BitCoin value... since we know it will not cost more than 1MWh per coin, the price can only be eroded. Not to mention the people who got in on the PoW at 100 per block can manipulate the price also.

So lets say on average a MWh costs $90 on the low end. In some US states it goes as high as $120 per MWh. The cost per coin right now is .00001788 x $232 per BitCoin equals $0.0041 per SLR Coin. This just proves my point. Each coin is not even worth half a penny yet 1 Coin = 1MWh. You don't even have the market cap of a Million AAA Energizer Batteries! So the price per coin should be around .388 per SLR coin to start with or slightly lower reflecting wholesale. So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green.

So if you are expecting investors to pay for this type of market movement based on Claims made by companies who have already been paid for the power they produced, I have to admire your sense of greed not green<< The true value of the coin will be derived from regular household PV systems and not from the solar farm claimants. A household which generates 15 to 30 SLR in a year is not going to sell his coins for $0.0041 each. He is surely going to place more value on his year long output than that.

The price was bought and sold today at $0.0041 and you are telling me it won't ever do that? How would a person selling for even $1.00 get their expected money out of the market ever? More claimants come forward and will sell their coins! They do not want to keep them. Then these sells are bought by the orders at .00001788 and only if there is demand for the coin will the price go up. So the Claimants have no stake in the coin or its success but the Households do. Holding a coin at this point and placing a value at close to the cost of MWh would mean you will be the last sale on the exchange when it takes place 40 years from now and it could be because you set that price at todays rates and eventually the market moved there due to inflation.

An SLR is an SLR whether it is from a Household or Solar Farm or PoW. Meaning the credit pool is still there looming, even if the coins are never distributed people will be wary of this impending credit supply hitting the market and crashing it since we know, for a fact, 1 SLR will NEVER equal more than 1MWh. Where you buy in will only show how wise of an investment you made since you don't know if these pool credit coins will dump on your positions suddenly. Only after all pool credit coins have been credited can the monetary system stabilize.

So if I buy 1,00,000 SLR for .0041 cents and the price goes up to .41 cents I sell off my SLR and create no worth but take money from the economy. Now imagine how many others would do the same. This is where the speculators manipulate and churn out earnings from your coin whether you like it or not! There is no benefit to keeping SLR for a long term, even if a merchant sells you something in SLR they have to equate the cost to FIAT and then pay for the cost of their goods in FIAT. They always have to get out and people have to want to get in for some reason.

What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins.

That is true ONLY if the crypto exchange is the ONLY place Crypto is valued to FIAT. Right now SLR is STILL yet another crypto. But the project is moving forward. PoW reward has been reduced 100 times already, and is about to end as soon as development of the PoS wallet is done (may be any moment). So the only ways people will be able to get more SLR from that moment on will be from their claims, from the exchange, from PoS staking. Last mined SLR piles are being sold on the exchange right now, and that's it! Most participants in the process until now are here to keep their SLR so that the project moves forward. Exchange traders - they will adjust to the market. And the market? The exchanges will eventually be a fraction of the goods & services market where SLR will be accepted.

"Why would people buy the coin just to keep it as though that idea creates value?" - Well.... you may have to rethink your idea of Crypto altogether. I buy coins, or mine coins, or CLAIM coins, to be able to PAY with them (for services, for goods, for FIAT, for other coins). Now, taking FIAT out of the equation is what really does me ONLY good - and I know that since the first time I made a purchase, in crypto, online, no FIAT involved. FIAT is out there - let it be, will not take it out of the equation - just like USD and EUR and JPY and CHF etc. are out there, in the FIAT world.

"Even backing with Claims to prove you paid coin for those Claims doesn't create value or make people want to buy a Solar Panel." - People now KNOW how much FIAT they invested to produce MWh from Solar. They now KNOW how much FIAT they are paid for 1MWh from Solar. Now they also start claiming their SLR. So what do they do - keep them? They want to spend them. Crypto ecosystem goes forward, fast. Merchants KNOW that - they feel it! Solar Panel stores WILL start accepting SLR payments as soon as their customers request that. And the trade value of SLR? Well, I know both cost and sale price of 1MWh, right? And I do NOT want to spend FIAT any more, only SLR. Do you know why? See above. So how much is SLR? You know what? Really... I do NOT need to even know how much is 1MWH in FIAT any more!

Got it?

"What good reason do you have for people to get in other than they already have Solar Panels? This is a closed economy. While my idea opens the economy and backs it with real money and encourages people to buy Solar Panels at a discount by using Solar Coins." - Who says what will be "real money" in 1 year from now? We do it. Any ideas, like yours, are welcome! We are here to make SLR real money. Are you on?

Yeah I am on! I realized the basis for the coin and point to what I perceive as flaws, but all I want to do is enhance the beauty of the beast we could create!

[user_fred]

Many thanks for these cheap SLR , you made my day. 

[lfloorwalker]

Hi CryptoNick,

This is an excellent idea. I am involved in the design, procurement and due-diligence of solar farms and I would love to see a farm in the future only working on SLR.
As for the other parts of the world- I think this picture pretty much sums up what a lot of people need from solar. Imagine if they can also be a POS node AND generate some more non-fiat income simultaneously. Amazing, and this thought blows my mind each morning...




Best,
lfloorwalker

I must say, this is a fascinating conversation. And timely! Especially since today is my one year anniversary for discovering SolarCoin.

Reading through these comments is helping me to reflect why I am here supporting this endeavor. In a nutshell, I think Fiat and the current system are a failing system. I have held that view for a number of years as I see it deteriorate before my eyes, benefitting those at the top increasingly at the expense of just about everyone else. Fiat is necessary for now because that is how much of the world still functions. However, my belief is that 10 years from now, possibly even within five years or less, fiat will have a rude awakening. It's a MASSIVE bubble! Combined with an under estimation of the damage global warming will have and I happen to think a currency solution to address both problems is something we have to do for humanity so at least there is something for people to fall back on for trade purposes. 1 MWh of solar electricity, as they get dispersed into the economy through SolarCoin, is the best "backing" for a future currency that I can think of. I tend not to get stuck in thinking in terms of fiat for my "investment" in SLR. It's not about that for me, not even close. It's about creating a system from the ground up that can be used when the day comes that current systems no longer work for everyone. That day is already here for much of the world.

My view of the future actually hasn't changed in the past year. If anything, the bust is moving even faster than I had anticipated. The difference between now and then is my perception of it. I choose to be hopeful rather than fearful. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But what if I'm right? How do we want that world to work that isn't all about destruction and chaos? Call it pie in the sky if you want to, that's also a choice. For me, I prefer to focus on the solution rather than the problem. Will SLR be part of that solution? None of us know the answer to that yet, that's why it's called "risk".

When it comes to understanding currency, I believe the Master says it best:

Love it! If you are not already afraid of the structure of the Fed Reserve and the 9 Trillion off the books during the Meltdown... "You Will Be!".

I completely understand now that SLR is based off 1MWh but price doesn't mean anything externally other than what people are willing to trade for externally, right now .0041 cents. But that only matters to people who care about FIAT. Those who don't care, it is of no consequence. It is also a way to get into SLR cheaply from worthless FIAT.

My only main concerns for Crypto in general and has nothing to do with SLR, is that the end game could be destruction of FIAT and its worth caused by Crypto as a self fulfilling prophecy. Either by State Sponsored subversion in order to attack other currencies using BitCoin or funnel funds to who knows where. The fact that the US decided to allow BitCoin only shows they are even worse than the criminals on SilkRoad which collected the majority of BitCoin for illegal activities. We have seen China take the precedent of only allowing the Selling of BitCoin and no buying. This is very telling.

So when I comment on a coin it is only in hopes to benefit that coin and make it more viable.

Making the Grid work for the people in FIAT and in SLR would create an equilibrium. Wouldn't it be amazing if participants in SLR could donate a percentage of the profits sent into to the grid, and were spent on an SLR public solar farm? Then the FIAT output of that farm goes into a buy wall of SLR. This would cause a pendulum swing as the output grows the farms could grow, even exponentially if proper percentages were agreed upon. SLR would be the most solvent currency ever created! Since it would equalize to FIAT and could maximize inside of the SLR economy knowing that the power feeds it externally also. Eventually SLR would transcend the risk entirely and make it a great investment since it only grows when it is fed. Ideally then SLR puts the Power Company on notice.

All of the output of the farm would be public knowledge and the walls would shift to suit the proper pricing per MWh. The Solar Farm's could be a Co-Op to allow it to subsist legally within the endeavor of the Coin. All the coin bought from the buy wall could be burned as PoS also perpetuating the time value of the coin for the holders.

I appreciate the fact that this may not be what the community or founders want, but I feel it gives the best chance for a Bright Future!

[y_virtual]

Many thanks for these cheap SLR , you made my day. 

What you want is what you get. Is cheap SLR what WE need?

[y_virtual]

OK, reminds of some talk here about feeling "in control" with several investors' BTC in the pockets. And new investors would actually LOVE cheap SLR, right? Now, I am not sure how dumping the price (to have the few left ex-miners dump to your own made-low bids), and then naturally pass-through margin traders posting low ASK offers to collect the profits, does any good to the SLR project. What if the ex-miners decided to stay as investors? That will never happen with the current setup though! I am sure in one thing - this is NOT the market in control, these are very few individuals feeling and acting as being in control. And we have to decide and take steps to buy out those ping-pong SLR fast, once and for all for this current price level. Because we all here know what the SLR project needs next, and non-cheap SLR is what finishing the reward-reduction step requires before that.

Many thanks for these cheap SLR , you made my day.  

What you want is what you get. Is cheap SLR what WE need?

[CryptoNick]

Hi CryptoNick,

This is an excellent idea. I am involved in the design, procurement and due-diligence of solar farms and I would love to see a farm in the future only working on SLR.
As for the other parts of the world- I think this picture pretty much sums up what a lot of people need from solar. Imagine if they can also be a POS node AND generate some more non-fiat income simultaneously. Amazing, and this thought blows my mind each morning...




Best,
lfloorwalker

Power to The People Litterally! A million man march with those panels would generate some coin!

Thanks! Yeah I want to take SLR to the next level! The actual production of the power from lets say a standard home system would drive the building of the Farm. The home owner would also get credit for SLR that they can also stake as they donate the power/FIAT into the fund directly from within the Utility company to the Co-Op account and all accounting would be public knowledge. This also proves the power was created and SLR was granted in exchange. This money would always go towards panels for the first Farm until new farms are needed, these can be strategically placed for optimum performance vs price payout from the grid. Then the power output now goes to stabilize SLR and allow the Home Owners to sell their coin if they would like to. Or they just keep reinvesting and staking making more SLR, the main goal would be to allow the same payout in FIAT for their power donation if they want to get out, but done in a way to allow ROI from the Farm. They could also stop donating at anytime.

The donations are backed now forever in SLR power production as an extension of the coin network to become self sufficient and self propagating worth to the coin. The donators could also have claim to coins in the future possibly through large confirmations. We just don't want them dumping coin into the wall at the time of their donation, other than the equivalent of what they donated. The Farm has to produce before their dividend could be spent. There are many ways to achieve this and create an extra advantage for the donators. I am not sure if this would work with both Claimants and Donators but it obviously works best for people buying in since the wall would bump the price up to a real MWh on the exchange or at least what the Market Cap will situate at in the form of power output from the Farm.

Creating a place to buy Panels Below Wholesale is the next step and people would be required to buy SLR to get the discount. If enough interest is taken in the panels, suddenly the sellers on the exchange who don't want to sell to the buy wall get paid off and increases market cap automatically since now most of these new sales will also participate and Donate into the Farm. Perpetual growth! Now when the panels are sold for SLR, an equal amount of coins from the fund will be burned and not claimable anymore reducing the supply.

[sunnyboy]

Dear,

Had a chat with Nick G. about SLR and the way it related to the "real-world". Please find my questions (and answers related) as follows ; I hope this might reassure people on the (right) way we're going !

1.    On the forum, [ANN][SLR] SolarCoin | PoW to PoS v. 2.0 | Solar Proof of Generation (§1 = 1MWh) , I believe that CryptoNick has a point about the virtual side of the SLR versus the true value of 1 MWh. Since the solar electricity produced has already been paid for (through netmetering, FIT, PPA...), what is the SLR pegged against ?

=> SLR is issued (circulation controlled) against the physical work performed to produce the MHw. In much the same way BTC is issued against POW computational work. Gold has no intrinsic value, but reflects the work of extracting and its percieved value.  The +33m in circulation from computational proof of work is "assigned" or declared by fiat to represent earlier solar production.  This fiat declaration was viewed as a means of helping get distribution out. Just FYI 33M MWh is a small fraction of earlier solar generated.

2.    Additionaly, in Fiat ccy, as 1usd can be pegged to 0.2usd of gold (roughly), you could, in theory, still go to the FED and  (it has still to be proved that the Bank would actually make this gold available to you...!)

=> Fiat is "pegged" only by declaration and the ability to redeem against the asset. The dollar hasn't been redeemable since 1974. The last major currency I know of that used to have a "peg" but no redemption feature to gold was the swiss franc which had a % tied to monetary base.   The dollar and most all major developed country currencies are non-redeemable assets which are mostly put into circulation by the purchasing of govt securities.  That being said, these notes (euros, USD etc). are not convertible / redeemable or valid claims against those central bank balance sheet assets.

3.    However, in the SLR case, how to you "pledge" the currency, what do you back it against ?

=> There is no "pledge" of the currency only the premise the circulation is restricted to proof of work as indicated by solar MWh production.

4.    Indeed, at no point in time (through the registration process) are the PVOwners required to "pledge" their solar MWh against 1 coin of SLR. (because then it would meen that, for example, I could drive my electric car to a PVOwner and ask him : "here, charge the electric battery of my electric car", and pay him 1SLR for it). It would also meen that, should the economic system fallout, the solar MWh could be called upon by the central bank (ie : the foundation in this case).

=>  Correct. It is a claim of work performed nothing more.  The currency derives its value from trade and/or the willingness of others to settle transactions in it. Fiat has a "demand" driver in the form of govt taxes that initially helped keep national currencies viable.  After that credit markets and other demand functions drove currency demand.  The more stable the issuance and percieved value, the more likely credit is extended in the currency, which creates future demand.  see www.economicprinciples.com

This should be brought up in the forum and or communicated to educate people how traditional money works, how traditional credit works and how solar coin works.  99% of people don't really know how traditional money works, is issued etc. which isn't terrible as it functions for them 99% of the time.

This of course is central to the way the virtual ccy will be accepted/or not and picked up by people...

[nickgogerty]

Dear,

Had a chat with Nick G. about SLR and the way it related to the "real-world". Please find my questions (and answers related) as follows ; I hope this might reassure people on the (right) way we're going !

1.    On the forum, [ANN][SLR] SolarCoin | PoW to PoS v. 2.0 | Solar Proof of Generation (§1 = 1MWh) , I believe that CryptoNick has a point about the virtual side of the SLR versus the true value of 1 MWh. Since the solar electricity produced has already been paid for (through netmetering, FIT, PPA...), what is the SLR pegged against ?

=> SLR is issued (circulation controlled) against the physical work performed to produce the MHw. In much the same way BTC is issued against POW computational work. Gold has no intrinsic value, but reflects the work of extracting and its percieved value.  The +33m in circulation from computational proof of work is "assigned" or declared by fiat to represent earlier solar production.  This fiat declaration was viewed as a means of helping get distribution out. Just FYI 33M MWh is a small fraction of earlier solar generated.

2.    Additionaly, in Fiat ccy, as 1usd can be pegged to 0.2usd of gold (roughly), you could, in theory, still go to the FED and  (it has still to be proved that the Bank would actually make this gold available to you...!)

=> Fiat is "pegged" only by declaration and the ability to redeem against the asset. The dollar hasn't been redeemable since 1974. The last major currency I know of that used to have a "peg" but no redemption feature to gold was the swiss franc which had a % tied to monetary base.   The dollar and most all major developed country currencies are non-redeemable assets which are mostly put into circulation by the purchasing of govt securities.  That being said, these notes (euros, USD etc). are not convertible / redeemable or valid claims against those central bank balance sheet assets.

3.    However, in the SLR case, how to you "pledge" the currency, what do you back it against ?

=> There is no "pledge" of the currency only the premise the circulation is restricted to proof of work as indicated by solar MWh production.

4.    Indeed, at no point in time (through the registration process) are the PVOwners required to "pledge" their solar MWh against 1 coin of SLR. (because then it would meen that, for example, I could drive my electric car to a PVOwner and ask him : "here, charge the electric battery of my electric car", and pay him 1SLR for it). It would also meen that, should the economic system fallout, the solar MWh could be called upon by the central bank (ie : the foundation in this case).

=>  Correct. It is a claim of work performed nothing more.  The currency derives its value from trade and/or the willingness of others to settle transactions in it. Fiat has a "demand" driver in the form of govt taxes that initially helped keep national currencies viable.  After that credit markets and other demand functions drove currency demand.  The more stable the issuance and percieved value, the more likely credit is extended in the currency, which creates future demand.  see www.economicprinciples.com

This should be brought up in the forum and or communicated to educate people how traditional money works, how traditional credit works and how solar coin works.  99% of people don't really know how traditional money works, is issued etc. which isn't terrible as it functions for them 99% of the time.

This of course is central to the way the virtual ccy will be accepted/or not and picked up by people...

Joe suggested a very simple way to explain Solarcoin to non crypto etc. people is that it works like "airmiles for solar electricity generation."