delete

[robinwilliams]

Re: The Monero Free For All Thread

Here - let me fix ur post smooth

Good point. Everyone please stay stray on topic. This is strictly a free for all thread.

slowclap.wav

Please try to stay on topic.

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[smooth]

So with out further a do here is your leaders grand Monero wisdom..

If you are referring to reptilia he has no leadership role with Monero. He runs the MEW group he started and is essentially a user group, but other than that he is just a user like anyone else (though certainly a vocal and opinionated one, for better or worse).

Seriously, ROFL

rpietila IS Monero

You are confused. Monero is an open source project i.e. https://github.com/monero-project. rpietila doesn't even have access to the repo, nor would he have any idea what to do with it if he did. (Nor does he have access to any of the other project assets, such as the 'monero' btct user, web site, domain names, etc.)

He's a user and self-appointed promoter.

If Mark Karpeles shows up here and starts telling everyone who he can get to listen to him how great Frappuchinos are, and how anyone and everyone should start drinking five Frappuccinos per day, that does not make him Starbucks, or a leader of Starbucks, or a spokesman for Starbucks.

[rangedriver]

Re: The Monero Free For All Thread

Here - let me fix ur post smooth

Good point. Everyone please stay stray on topic. This is strictly a free for all thread.

slowclap.wav

Please try to stay on topic.

slowclap.wav

Bellend, that was my post.

[TheFascistMind]

TFM is one of a very rare breed and highly valued for that.  Problem finders are rare enough, problem fixers are also rare.

Thanks for that. When I worked for Mark Zimmer and Tom Hedges at Fractal Design Corporation in the early to mid-1990s on what is now Corel Painter, they were enamored that on my first day of work I had built a test suite for the printer drivers and was isolating bugs in it. Afaik Painter was the first software to come in a paint can, and it was the first commercial software to realistically simulate the effects of real media, such as paper gain, ink bleed, stylus pressure (employing a Wacom pressure tablet), etc.. The core algorithms were often written in Motorola and Intel assembly code and were entirely undocumented. I remember I isolated a bug in the some undocumented, convoluted, nested algorithm which unraveled the paper grain relative to a brush model, and doing so not by understanding what the function was doing precisely but by reverse engineering the state machine (totally in my mind, no written notes) and using induction to narrow possibilities. In short, I often see possibilities that others do not. I am able to build an elaborate imagination of a design or issue in my head. Put it another way, I have a vivid imagination and it is known that my IQ is concentrated in the visual mathematics realm (I loathe details that I can't handle in my head that have to written down).

Here is my photo in 1993 in Aptos, CA at Fractal:

http://www.coolpage.com/Shelby.jpg

[rangedriver]

So with out further a do here is your leaders grand Monero wisdom..

If you are referring to reptilia he has no leadership role with Monero. He runs the MEW group he started and is essentially a user group, but other than that he is just a user like anyone else (though certainly a vocal and opinionated one, for better or worse).

Seriously, ROFL

rpietila IS Monero


~BCX~

Bellend, when does your cuntish deadline run out? I'm waiting for XMR to die but it's still here? I was hoping you would deliver some fireworks but all I see is a Caucasian male with a Californian driving license. LOL

[TheFascistMind]

...but we have to do better than that to graduate from FUD.

What is your guess about this vaporware below?

How the hell do I know? Correct would be especially hard to say if it is unpublished, since that would limit who might be scrutinizing it for errors or unstated (here at least) assumptions.

Cool I wanted to see how you reacted to lack of data. Because it seemed you were implying that probing is FUD. Nicholas Taleb made his fortune on the Taleb distribution, which is basically correctly valuing long tail events. You would not be well served to assume just because my probing doesn't find a vulnerability that BCX could attack, that means I never find anything earth shattering.

I am 90% certain that what I wrote exists and doesn't have an error, because it is quite simple, at least on first thoughts.

[TheFascistMind]

And don't forget to say Checkpoint are useless and the devs can't do anything so people continue in fear.

I never said that. Never. I said checkpoints can be an illusion "in some scenarios".

[TheFascistMind]

watch your ass you will get banned smart ass !

Fine with me. Probably the best thing that could happen to me.

Except in this face TheFascistMind isn't a Monero supporter at all. So I don't think that theory really holds up.

Shhh. 

Don't kick a sleepingromping dog.

[robinwilliams]

TFM is one of a very rare breed and highly valued for that.  Problem finders are rare enough, problem fixers are also rare.

Thanks for that. When I worked for Mark Zimmer and Tom Hedges at Fractal Design Corporation in the early to mid-1990s on what is now Corel Painter, they were enamored that on my first day of work I had built a test suite for the printer drivers and was isolating bugs in it. Afaik Painter was the first software to come in a paint can, and it was the first commercial software to realistically simulate the effects of real media, such as paper gain, ink bleed, stylus pressure (employing a Wacom pressure tablet), etc.. The core algorithms were often written in Motorola and Intel assembly code and were entirely undocumented. I remember I isolated a bug in the some undocumented, convoluted, nested algorithm which unraveled the paper grain relative to a brush model, and doing so not by understanding what the function was doing precisely but by reverse engineering the state machine (totally in my mind, no written notes) and using induction to narrow possibilities. In short, I often see possibilities that others do not. I am able to build an elaborate imagination of a design or issue in my head. Put it another way, I have a vivid imagination and it is known that my IQ is concentrated in the visual mathematics realm (I loathe details that I can't handle in my head that have to written down).

Here is my photo in 1993 in Aptos, CA at Fractal:

haha bwahahaha!!!!  I would comment on this but I think it's funny enough by itself I don't need to.

[rangedriver]

TFM is one of a very rare breed and highly valued for that.  Problem finders are rare enough, problem fixers are also rare.

Thanks for that. When I worked for Mark Zimmer and Tom Hedges at Fractal Design Corporation in the early to mid-1990s on what is now Corel Painter, they were enamored that on my first day of work I had built a test suite for the printer drivers and was isolating bugs in it. Afaik Painter was the first software to come in a paint can, and it was the first commercial software to realistically simulate the effects of real media, such as paper gain, ink bleed, stylus pressure (employing a Wacom pressure tablet), etc.. The core algorithms were often written in Motorola and Intel assembly code and were entirely undocumented. I remember I isolated a bug in the some undocumented, convoluted, nested algorithm which unraveled the paper grain relative to a brush model, and doing so not by understanding what the function was doing precisely but by reverse engineering the state machine (totally in my mind, no written notes) and using induction to narrow possibilities. In short, I often see possibilities that others do not. I am able to build an elaborate imagination of a design or issue in my head. Put it another way, I have a vivid imagination and it is known that my IQ is concentrated in the visual mathematics realm (I loathe details that I can't handle in my head that have to written down).

Here is my photo in 1993 in Aptos, CA at Fractal:

haha bwahahaha!!!!  I would comment on this but I think it's funny enough by itself I don't need to.

Frankly I'm disappointed. I was expecting someone more like this:-

[smooth]

Frankly I'm disappointed. I was expecting someone more like this:-

Holy shit. TFM invented Bytecoin!?

[robinwilliams]

na ... he sees himself of too much of an all american to stoop to being a geek i think

he can run faster, thrust longer, think harder, stay up longer, fight better, get more chicks than any of us.  and feels the need to brag about it on the altcoin forums  

[TheFascistMind]

The distributed checkpointing allows for the ability to get all the honest nodes back to work even if there is a novel form of attack based on any type of chain forking attack, not just the TW, and further allows for self service of the solution.

I don't understand how decentralized checkpointing can work because if you don't put them on the block chain, then there is no decentralized record, and nodes don't know if they are part of the majority otherwise. If you put them on the block chain, they can be unwound by an attack.

Do you mean centrally issued checkpoints?

This novel attack was contemplated when searching for any way a TW attack could have any effect at all.
It was considered in the solution offered within the 72 hour "first threat window".

Kudos. My understanding of TW was too immature back then. I am catching up.

The checkpoints may be issued centrally or not.  Checkpoints are not put on the block chain.  The decentralized record exists in the same systems that the block chain exists, on the miner systems, but not in the block chain.  To say that makes it not a decentralized record, strikes me as strange.

If they are issued centrally, then it means the coin is not autonomously decentralized. It is antithetical to TacoTime's upthread paranoia about BBR's compression by discarding ring proofs, wherein the only known vulnerability if is the developers can't be trusted and would plant bugs in the open source.

If they are issued by each miner taking a snapshot independently, then as I wrote before, no miner knows if it is part of the majority thus the only way to find out is to attempt to publish a block and see if it stays in the longest fork. Thus independently captured checkpoints works if all clients independently reorganize (rewind) a fork and then vote using PoW. But that is not what you are talking about here. You are talking about the centralized developers issuing an instruction to rewind to a checkpoint and all miners following the instruction because they have copy of the checkpoint. Thus this is really paragraph #1 above.

Adding checkpoints is a human intervention, and always has been.

Exactly, thus they are paragraph #1 above.

And remember my point was that if the transaction activity gets too mixed into a Gordian knot on the attacker's fork, then there might be considerable human political resistance to unwinding that bad fork.

Thus although checkpoints could aid a centralized recovery, we must note they may not always work in every scenario.

Given Monero's very low tx rate, the Gordian knot is unlikely.

There may be automations added to further reduce the efforts, and I am aware of some that have been discussed by the XMR dev team, but thanks to the BCX threat, Monero remains the current leader in defenses against this sort of attack.

The unpublished thing I mentioned to smooth is where I have worked through that logic about automation and I can assure you that reorganizing from longish forks (whether an attack or naturally induced) can not be automated. The only decision you can make is to let the longest fork win and destroy instantly all the conflicting value in the shorter fork, or you can put a maximum fork length rule so that the two forks live on simultaneously and the market decides how to value them.

[TheFascistMind]

...

Oh my dog, Sputnuts noise is back. 

Enjoy the walls of text.

For anyone that reads his crap.

http://lifehacker.com/breakup-splits-walls-of-text-into-paragraphs-1642400700

I suggest a more efficient tool:

/dev/null

[smooth]

If they are issued centrally, then it means the coin is not autonomously decentralized. It is antithetical to TacoTime's upthread paranoia about BBR's compression by discarding ring proofs

They are not equivalent, and declining to change the trust model is not paranoia, it is just a judgement call over what is or is not worth a particular degree of constant factor size reduction. If the reduction was not constant factor or even if the constant factor were something like 99.99% then the judgement might well be different.

Trimming removes the ability to independently verify the chain at all. Checkpoints do not. You can decide to comment out the checkpoints in your own node and still verify everything. In fact, you can remove checkpoints in your copy of the code with no ill effects at all. They are an added mechanism for the community to reach consensus if a sufficient portion of it chooses to do so (and this can be done without any developer at all, especially with the ability to set them in a text file).

I respect that you might have a different view on ring trimming and/or checkpoints, but suggesting they are equivalent or interchangeable is incorrect.

[TheFascistMind]

So with out further a do here is your leaders grand Monero wisdom..

If you are referring to reptilia he has no leadership role with Monero. He runs the MEW group he started and is essentially a user group, but other than that he is just a user like anyone else (though certainly a vocal and opinionated one, for better or worse).

Seriously, ROFL

rpietila IS Monero

You are confused. Monero is an open source project i.e. https://github.com/monero-project. rpietila doesn't even have access...

He's a user and self-appointed promoter.

If Mark Karpeles shows up here..

I am not sure if I agree with you that rpietila destroyed Monero. I think maybe it would have occurred any way without him.

My statement is both true due to a technical fact, and also because group-wise innovation is an oxymoron. Innovation is a very tight incrementalized process that falls away exponentially under high communication load. Group-wise open source is very effective at refinement however. But before refinement, you need innovation. Can't put the cart before the horse.

[smooth]

So with out further a do here is your leaders grand Monero wisdom..

If you are referring to reptilia he has no leadership role with Monero. He runs the MEW group he started and is essentially a user group, but other than that he is just a user like anyone else (though certainly a vocal and opinionated one, for better or worse).

Seriously, ROFL

rpietila IS Monero

You are confused. Monero is an open source project i.e. https://github.com/monero-project. rpietila doesn't even have access...

He's a user and self-appointed promoter.

If Mark Karpeles shows up here..

I am not sure if I agree with you that rpietila destroyed Monero.

It would be better for your own reputation if you did not misquote me, or quote out of context.

[robinwilliams]

Innovation is a very tight incrementalized process that falls away exponentially under high communication load. Group-wise open source is very effective at refinement however. But before refinement, you need innovation. Can't put the cart before the horse.

The innovation happened with the original code.  what's left is adoption, improvement, & perfecting in that order.

most innovation falls by the wayside due to lack of those three things.

in fact. normally those who possess those three factors push out the initial true innovators.  (IE Microsoft -> OS2, iexplore -> netscape, Monero/BBR -> Original Bytecoin developers).

[TheFascistMind]

So with out further a do here is your leaders grand Monero wisdom..

If you are referring to reptilia he has no leadership role with Monero. He runs the MEW group he started and is essentially a user group, but other than that he is just a user like anyone else (though certainly a vocal and opinionated one, for better or worse).

Seriously, ROFL

rpietila IS Monero

You are confused. Monero is an open source project i.e. https://github.com/monero-project. rpietila doesn't even have access...

He's a user and self-appointed promoter.

If Mark Karpeles shows up here..

I am not sure if I agree with you that rpietila destroyed Monero.

It would be better for your own reputation if you did not misquote me, or quote out of context.

Who is confused?

[smooth]

The only decision you can make is to let the longest fork win and destroy instantly all the conflicting value in the shorter fork, or you can put a maximum fork length rule so that the two forks live on simultaneously and the market decides how to value them.

Congratulations you have invented Bitcoin (i.e. the first alternative here). If you have proven something novel about the broader distributed consensus problem, or fully developed a way to build something novel and useful based on the second, that might interesting.