[GUIDE] B's A More Ethical & Trustworthy Miner Sellers Trustworthiness Guide

[Bicknellski]

[Thumbs Up - CONSUMER]

Reputable companies that you can expect delivery on time and to spec and will, when they are in error, provide a reasonable and equitable relief to the customers satisfaction. In no particular order of importance.

 Bitmaintech

 Spondoolies Tech

 Lee Group S5 Antiminer Sales

[Thumbs Up - B2B]

 Bitfury

 Bitmaintech

 Spondoolies Tech


[Thumbs Up - RETIRED & OTHERS]

 Twinfury USB miner Project Closed / Retired.

 One String Miner Some activity on inventory sales but closed or retired. Production of this miner was halted in 2014.

 Nano Fury Project USB miner Closed / Retired Project.

 BTCGarden Suspected it has closed as they do not have chips to fabricate new miners. No news on anything new being fabricated. Watching for news.


-------------------------------------------


[Thumbs Down - CONSUMER]

Disreputable companies that have provided late delivery or not to spec and will not or have yet to provided adequate relief to customers when the company is in error. In no particular order of importance. If the company name has a line through it means it has closed, gone bankrupt or otherwise restricted in doing any business due to financial or legal issues or are most likely a straight up scam.

 Technobit Ignoring Emails and Customer Complaints. Some customers have started legal action against technobit.

 ASICMiner Fraud issues. Friedcat gone missing.

 Rockminer Substantial issue with fraud could be caught up in the Asicminer Friedcat problems.

[Thumbs Down - B2B]  

NONE

[Thumbs Down - RETIRED & OTHERS]

 KNC Horrible shipping issue and compensation is slow or non-existent. Moving to self mining model non-consumer or B2B

 CoinTerra Bankrupt

 Bitmine Being Sued.

 Black Arrow Hong Kong Police Investigating them for Fraud.

 AMT- No Longer Shipping Units. See Link

 VMC - No Longer in Business. Not shipping units.

 Minersource Suspected of major fraud. Website down. No longer responding to emails. Looks they have run off with customer funds and are no longer refunding or shipping units.

 nTek - No Longer Shipping Units. See Link

 Butterfly Labs - FTC limited them to NO pre-sales. Court date pending

 HashFast  - Forced Bankruptcy! See Link

 Avalon - Avalon chip fraud cost the community millions of dollars in lost development. Do not trust this company, they have changed names and are still overpricing inefficient units and chips.


* If you would like to COMPLAIN ANONYMOUSLY about a company feel free to PM me about that company so that your order from that company will not be put in jeopardy. As much as possible we will use posts made by customers with valid complaints posted directly in the hardware and group buy threads.


-------------------------------------------


[REASONING]

Here is my biased and opinionated guide on purchasing hardware. I am only taking into account which companies have, in my personal assessment, a reputation for delivering on time and to spec without any significant or outstanding customer service issues. This is not a comparative chart it is merely a suggestion for consumers looking for a starting point rather than having to read through all the forums and other media.

As the OP I am willing to move companies in or out of either area given sufficient complaints from customers or sufficient rectification of past indiscretions based sufficient CUSTOMER feedback from those who were injured initially. Feel free to discuss my biased and opinionated ratings in this a new moderated thread. I value the opinions of actual customers over the fabricator in every case. If you are here to troll me I will simply ignore you and delete your bs and move on to the topic at hand. This is a BIASED and OPINIONATED review of the companies still shipping units. If a company remains in the Thumbs Up or Down section I will review customer posts over the week and take a snap shot on the weekend and post their opinions with my editorial comments. This snapshot will look for negative posts for those in the Thumbs Down and positive in the Thumbs Up. Should there be significant changes to the company in how they resolve or fail to resolve issues then moving them from their current category could be warranted.

Please note there are only two categories so you will need to weigh the merits on your own and determine whether or not you would recommend someone trust a company to deliver on time and to specification and will if in error resolve any and all disputes with their customer base. Let me know if I am missing any fabricators far or wide inside or outside bitcointalk remember NO SCRYPT or ALTCOIN. ONLY SHA256 box makers please. Obviously we will just avoid the outright scams that never shipped a unit right? And please make sure to debate vigorously if you feel I am wrong in my opinion. I will change it based on evidence of customer support for the company is fairly universal.

Remember this guide is just the starting point. You can scan the list and agree or disagree and do your own research. I am giving you my best appraisal based on the reading of the bitcointalk forums and other sources. It is not a comparison of companies. It is just meant to give you a starting point especially for new members to source miners. And as always... read the Caveat Emptor by Gmaxwell and learn any purchase of mining equipment is a crapshoot at best. Good Luck hope it helps you avoid the pitfalls when buying miners.

Oh here is a great rant about ROI. Some rants about Financial ROI by TheRealSteve. Although this Rant relates to stick or usb miners it almost seems to mirror the current situation for the home miner attempting to buy now.

Further to mining there are questions regarding cloud or derivative mining contracts. Please review the thread by DrG here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8355686#msg8355686


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[Bicknellski]

[UPDATE of Consumer Comments in the Fabricator Threads]

|||| 22.FEB.2015 ||||

Please review latest updates to the new categories. We hope this clarifies some of the issues as companies move toward a B2B model and away from CONSUMER production.

New Categories are implemented.

Thumbs Up Consumer
Those companies that sell both to businesses and consumers and have good standing in the community.

Thumbs Up B2B
Those companies that only sell both to other businesses and NOT to consumers and have good standing in the community.

Thumbs Up Retired/Defunct/Closed/Bankrupt
Those companies that sold both to businesses and consumers and had a good standing in the community before ending their project or development of miners.

------------------------------------

Thumbs Down Consumer
Those companies that sell both to businesses and consumers and have terrible standing in the community.

Thumbs Down B2B
Those companies that only sell both to other businesses and NOT to consumers and have terrible standing in the community.

Thumbs Down Retired/Defunct/Closed/Bankrupt
Those companies that sold both to businesses and consumers and had terrible standing in the community before ending their project or development of miners.

 TECHNOBIT Screen Capture of Support Thread  22 FEB 2015

2015-02-21 11:35:56    Preparation in progress

but no tracking number and when I asked him 6 times ...
Tomorrow when not tracking number so no blah blah but I will ask money back

I agree with you 1000%.
If I do not have tracking id tomorrow, then they have squandered their last chance.
If you want it, then I write here or in the other thread about how what my lawyer said.
It 's enough energy once when one bears the cost.
When I think of it, we do it better then via PM.

Fair enough.
Again thank you all for the patience and understanding.
We are packing @ the moment .
Just a note : DPD representative here Speedy is accepting sendings in saturday until 14:00

Yes, you said the same 10 days back, you would ship my 8 repaired boards "tomorrow", and still nothing shipped. And that's 5 weeks after you receiving them and saying you would ship them back "in a few days". Empty words, as always.

|||| 14.FEB.2015 ||||

Updated OP with new information.

Rockminer is no more. Likely merged or absorbed with AMiner. This seems to be official as their website is now down.


|||| 11.FEB.2015 ||||

This thread is certified Dogie POOP free!



|||| 04.OCT.2014 ||||


[Thumbs Up]



  Spondoolies Releases Hi Res Pictures of the SP20:

As the market becomes increasingly harder for manufacturers to find those willing to buy SPTech keeps the pressure on with the SP20.


 Bitmain makes official announcement that they are not affiliated with Minersource.net or Miner Hosting LLC.

As concerns grow over Minersource.net and Miner Hosting LLC Bitamain is clear to distance themselves with this group. I suspect there is more to this but it is a good sign for customers that Bitmain is trying not to be involved with known problem companies like this.



[Thumbs Down]

 Technobit continue production of new miners yet is failing to deliver on past orders.

Even though Technobit claimed to halt all other work in lieu of getting the group buy minion boards out they have continued to produce new boards. Customers are still not getting shipments or incomplete shipments.


BFL gets pulled deeper into the bowels of FTC control.

http://ia902308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.54.0.pdf

A Summary of the Document by ElGrandeJefe



|||| 27.SEP.2014 ||||  


[Thumbs Up]
 

Asicminer Prisma Brief

ASICMiner Prisma is based on a proprietary X48 design for BE200. Greatly reduces power consumption of the device per GH/s compared to the X24 design.


Spondoolies Tech customers see the effort being made.

Clearly the CEO and Tech Support are on the forums. They are responding to questions and giving answers without trying to hide from their obligations.


BitmainTech continues to keep most of their consumers happy.

Minor things like this often happen. BitmainTech usually ups their game and makes sure shipping issues like this get rectified.


BTCGarden Looks to new Prototype

BTCGarden is working on a new prototype. Customers happy and waiting to see the product.


-------------------------


[Thumbs Down]

 
Technobit.eu

Loshia / Marto74 concerted effort to spam the old un moderated thread has forced this to be a new moderated thread. It goes without saying that there are plenty of people that have been hurt by technobit.eu and their lack of communication to customers with valid questions and complaints coupled with the lies and trolling of the previous thread goes to the very heart of why people should avoid that company. As they continue to add more product lines they have failed to deliver again on promised Minion Group Buy boards to at least 3 customers and these customers do have substantial investments and some have not seen all their product going on 10 weeks since payment.


AMT Ran off with people's money.

Thanks to opieum2 for the link.


 Bitmine delays, no refunds just sad miners who want compensation.  

Nothing changed for Bitmine customers over the week just hurt and pain.


BFL

#ASKFTC on the 24th of September was quite good and helped consumers learn more about the current receivership that BFL is under.

Here is a compiled list Here is the full #AskFTC Q&A session regarding Butterfly Labs @ButtCoin https://storify.com/fermunation/askftc


BFL Signature Campaign  

If you want to help the FTC gather more data on BFL and make the court order receiver a permanent fixture at BFL then spread the word in your sig.

Fraud BFL questions to: eljreceiver@spencerfane.com or call 816-292-8316 or #ASKFTC.

Again you can call 816-292-8316 or #ASKFTC do not let SLok, BCP19, Sonny V., Inaba/Josh walk free.

Cointerra customers banding together for a lawsuit

Cointerra should be avoided they still have not refunded and or compensated all their customers.


Black Arrow still not refunding customers  

Black Arrow continue to disappoint customers. Refunds and miners still not being shipped or provided.


KnC woefully is still not compensating customers

KnC customers continue complaints about 0 compensation. Miner troubles with the Titan.


Minersource FTC complaints being filed

Minersource has been slow to refund and provide adequate answers to questions by consumers for several months now and it is continuing.


-------------------------


[Delisted Thumbs Up]


Removed Thumbs Up Companies for Lack of Shipping (30 days without a post or units shipped)

Note: Links for threads give reasoning for lack of shipping and potential future projects. These companies could have new offerings in the future.

Twinfury USB miner Last Post  May 26, 2014  

One String Miner Last Post August 18, 2014

Nano Fury Project USB miner Last Post September 23, 2014

-----------

* If I missed a particularly juicy consumer comment or company in the snap shot feel free to PM me the quote from the Hardware / Group Buy or Scam Accusation  sections.

-----------

[Bicknellski]

BFL closed by FTC.

#ASKFTC on the 24th of September was quite good and helped consumers learn more about the current receivership that BFL is under.

Here is a compiled list Here is the full #AskFTC Q&A session regarding Butterfly Labs @ButtCoin https://storify.com/fermunation/askftc

BFL Signature Campaign  

If you want to help the FTC gather more data on BFL and make the court order receiver a permanent fixture at BFL then spread the word in your sig.

Fraud BFL questions to: eljreceiver@spencerfane.com or call 816-292-8316 or #ASKFTC.

Again you can call 816-292-8316 or #ASKFTC do not let SLok, BCP19, Sonny V., Inaba/Josh walk free.

IMPORTANT PSA for BFL former and current customers:

Latest update on the BFL homepage:

"BF Labs, Inc. has been placed in a temporary receivership pursuant to court order, Case No. 4:14-cv-00815-BCW. There will be a hearing on September 29, 2014 at 9:00 a.m. at the Charles Evans Whittaker Courthouse in Kansas City, Missouri. At the hearing, the court will consider this matter. Questions may be directed to the temporary receiver at: eljreceiver@spencerfane.com or 816-292-8316."

Please people, this aint over "till the fat lady sings"; contact the receiver and explain your position in this!

(My story is something like: ordered in jan. expected delivery in march/april, due to BFL's non-delivery I missed this much BTC income by the time BFL refunded me [after another 45 day wait] in august and I finally could divert that investment to another producer [Antminer] who did deliver in two weeks, in the mean time BFL banned me permanently off the forum so I could not communicate properly with either them or other customers.)

More... DON'T FORGET TO #ASKFTC about the BFL debacle.

in the mean time BFL banned me permanently off the forum so I could not communicate properly with either them or other customers.)

You mixed it up a bit, you could not communicate properly with either them or other customers. If you don't understand that, after about 6 of your posts removed where you just advertised Antminers in The Monarch Update thread, that you should stop doing so, and just keep on doing it, well....

Sorry SLok, but you are the one who's got it mixed up; advertising is something you do for a bounty (either getting paid or get goods or whatever...). I simply expressed my good experience as a customer with Bitmaintech and the performance of the Antminer S1 (first) and S3 (later) while my other funds were tied up for almost 8 months at BFL (and got banned permanently after simply answering another customers direct question as to where he could find those Antminers).

Now I do understand that for someone who's involved with BFL it's hard to imagine customers actually being so satisfied that they express their gratitude by simply praising that company for no obvious reason. But sorry: that's not advertising, that's recommending. Don't worry, if you still don't get it just mail your questions to: eljreceiver@spencerfane.com or call 816-292-8316 and #ASKFTC

The shut down of BFL is reaching pretty much every major media venue now... On Forbes.

Meanwhile, according to FTC attorney Helen Wong, the company’s owners were using company credit cards for personal shopping outings at Nordstroms and Bed, Bath & Beyond; to get massages; go to saunas; and to buy guns. That last one could only be a business expense if the owners were preparing for customers descending on them with pitchforks.

They should have been called Bitfarce machines. Over 20,000 customers ordered them but none had received them over a year later, according to the FTC complaint. In November 2013, Butterfly Labs claimed all the Bitforce machines had shipped but “consumers continued to file complaints about not receiving their prepaid BitForce mining machine,” says the FTC.

[Bicknellski]

BitmainTech continues to keep most of their consumers happy

Minor things like this often happen. BitmainTech usually ups their game and makes sure shipping issues like this get rectified.

Bitmain, I received my two S1 upgrade kits today. Awesome job on the quick shipping and being very well packed. The only issue I have is that I didn't receive thermal paste. I'm going to try to find some around town in the morning, but off hand I don't know of any place. Could you send me some? It sucks I won't have them up and running tonight.

[Bicknellski]

BTCGarden Looks to new Prototype

BTCGarden is working on a new prototype. Customers happy and waiting to see the product.

Thank you all for your supports.
BTCGarden is working on prototype of new model for the time being. Hope we could bring you the new model soon.

Consumers respond

Thank you all for your supports.
BTCGarden is working on prototype of new model for the time being. Hope we could bring you the new model soon.

One of antminer alternative solution we are waiting for

Thank you all for your supports.
BTCGarden is working on prototype of new model for the time being. Hope we could bring you the new model soon.

whis what im waiting ... hope very soon , bcoz prisma is out!!

[Bicknellski]

  KnC woefully is still not compensating customers

KnC customers continue complaints about 0 compensation. Miner troubles with the Titan.

Titanic needs watercooling for proper operation.

i still didnt get my titan WTF!

Don't worry, you aren't alone. I'd be surprised if those incompetent fucks at KNC have sent 20 out so far.

bitmain antminer S4 will be shipped since Sept 29. 2TH, 0.69 J/GH, $1450 USD.

https://bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020140916100720380cS1tRWd00684

And KnC still owes me a bonus miner worth $5995 (or $1000?)...

You didn't hear?  Those bonus miners were just a joke.  They are never coming.  You can just forget about receiving that.  It's just like how "Plan B, Hash While you Wait" disappeared.  KnC is going to argue the contract was for 1 Neptune and they are not obligated to give the 'bonus' they once contemplated.

Class action against kncminer.com

Have you ordered a KnCMiner Titan or Neptune?
Are you fed up with them and are interested in legal action and possibly a class action?

I'm trying to judge whether a class action suit would be a possible. Can you please state what you had ordered and why you would sue them?

Do you know a good lawyer or are a resident in Sweden? It would be helpful to have a contact there.

For example, I ordered a KnCMiner Titan. I am a consumer and would like to get a refund, because their products are unsafe (fire hazard, no CE marking), they have made false representations (Q2/Q3 delivery, 800Watt), and because they act in direct conflict with their customers (Batch 1 vs Batch 2).

My other thread collects information on replies from authorities and lawyers. Please contribute if you can!

[Bicknellski]

Black Arrow Refunds / Miners had been promised, neither delivered to customer satisfaction

Black Arrow still failing to refund people.

Legal action is definitely possible.
 
This article has some interesting info on suing a Chinese Company from the U.S.- http://www.chinalawb...ted_states.html
 
According to a business lawyer friend of mine, the FTC can request that a Chinese company's funds be frozen while litigation takes place. He also said that U.S. companies and consumers sue Chinese companies often, and that they have decent success.
 
I personally haven't considered it yet, but if someone is willing to organize a class action suit, I'm sure plenty of people would be willing to join.
 
I wish BA understood that all they need to do is tell everyone what is going on, and agree to a good compensation plan. I'm positive this would make many customers happy and willing to wait a bit longer. ( The compensation would need to be at least 3x at minimum, but they have the equipment.)
 
If they don't act soon I'm sure we'll see legal action begin. I just hope BA isn't waiting for that to happen before they start delivering.
 
Just my 2 pennies.

If they were going to boost compensation, they would have done so long ago. It's just a stall tactic to keep people placated.

The minion products are a total loss at this point. All customers have been screwed. It's time for BA to own up to that fact.

I believe that we have already informed our customers of this: We are currently waiting for CE to check the X3. Until completed, no shipment can be made.

We would like to ask forum users to stop flooding the thread with obscene messages.

Thank you for your patience.

Provide refunds to those who have requested them and the obscene messages will surely cease. Until then, you will continue to reap what you have sown.

When will this be completed?  When will my orders be sent?  It's been almost a year now. How did you expect this to have come together in February?  Are we getting some 14nm chips in these for compensation?

The 14nm chips are merely a figment of someone's imagination at this point.

Yes, define obscene.  This is not porn channel.  

Black Arrow should refund, as people say.  Refunds have been promised, not delivered.  Take people's money for this and not return as promised is obscene.

I think BA's SOP is to ignore all refund requests .. at least it feels that way, I requested my refund at the beginning of July and never heard anything.  In fact, they deleted my first two refund request tickets on their support site!  The third one is still there but it has been unanswered.

Really wish I had put my BTC behind KNC the second time through, they never let me down on my first miners.

[Bicknellski]

Minersource FTC complaints being filed

Minersource has been slow to refund and provide adequate answers to questions by consumers for several months now and it is continuing.

You can file a Small Claims Court online against MinerSource. If you have a single X1, then it's probably not worth it. But a larger order would be.

This is my last option.  I just filed my complaint case with the FTC and already have the BBB under review.  I will look into small claims unless we have some collective legal action being undertaken thus far by any others.  I will definitely join if we have any such claim in the works.

Minersource fails to refund then force shipment on this customer.

Well I believe they are banking on the fact that people's orders are small enough that it won't be worth their time suing. Please contact me if you're considering the option of suing Minersource, thank you.

I just received in the mail the Prospero X-1 that I requested a refund on several times over the last several months. It showed up and I said to myself, "Son of a bitch, it's here. I may as well cut my loses and use it." So I took it inside and plugged it in. After plugging it in and setting it to the right pool/worker I noticed it was running very hot. I examined the outside of the box and noticed that the fan was not spinning. I figured, maybe it was being obstructed by something, so I disconnected it and used a paper clip to manually give the fan a little push. It spun around fine, so I figured it must be a fluke and that I should try it again. So I plugged it back in and was immediately greeted by a loud pop and a shower of sparks. I'm repackaging the device now and taking it back to UPS to refuse delivery and have it shipped back to minersource. You now owe me a full refund plus the cost of shipping it back to you. Just be thankful I'm not trying to sue you for personal endangerment.

[Bicknellski]

Spondoolies Tech customers see the effort being made.

Clearly the CEO and Tech Support are on the forums. They are responding to questions and giving answers without trying to hide from their obligations.

Personally, I like your direct no-nonsense approach.

The main thing is that the CEO is active right here on the forum... so communication is happening, questions are answered, responses are being made. We've got great tech support right here too.

It's like night and day compared to many other manufacturers.

[Bicknellski]

Asicminer Prisma Brief - A New AM Miner for October  

ASICMiner Prisma is based on a proprietary X48 design for BE200. Greatly reduces power consumption of the device per GH/s compared to the X24 design.

Brief
ASICMiner Prisma is based on a proprietary X48 design for BE200. It greatly reduces power
consumption of the device per GH/s compared to the X24 design.

It takes the same cooling structure and similar form factor as the ASICMiner Tube,
while being even more efficient and compact. Also, we added cgminer support on Raspberry PI.

Spec
Hashrate: 350-370GH/s per hashing unit in normal mode, 1400-1480GH/s per full device.

Power consumption: ~0.67 W/G board-wise. On-wall power consumption relies on PSU
efficiency. (typically 1050-1100 W per full device, 0.75-0.78 W/G)

Size: 35cmx12cmx12cm per full device.

Weight: 7.5kg per full device.

Powering: One 6pin PCI-E plugs per hashing unit.

The hashing units are driven by ethernet controllers. It can also be driven by cgminer on Raspberry PI.
Each ethernet controller or Raspberry PI can run up to 32 units.

Consumer Comments:

These look cool and all, and the Prisma seem to be a more efficient miner than the original Tubes.

All that said, I'm with the others on this one, doesn't seem to be any ROI in sight unless these somehow ship this week, not in October.

Either way, well done FC/AM for continuing to tweak and pump out these new designs at decent rates.  The 14 BTC for the 14 TH/s will never return that amount back(difficulty, PSU costs, import tax costs, shipping costs, cabling costs, cooling/electrical costs etc), but at least they're giving miners a good buying option compared to BFL, KNC, BA, AMT, Cointerra etc.

Great to see FC still pumping out new devices.

In the end you are really betting against difficulty. With the tubes it was a ~7% diff rise for ROI. I haven't calculated it with the prisma, but again it'll be around that level.

With btc not rising/declining recently, I think we may see a much slower rate of rise (even look over the past few months).

I may bite depending on final price.

[Bicknellski]

  Cointerra customers banding together for a lawsuit

Cointerra should be avoided they still have not refunded and or compensated all their customers.

I am glad I found this post. I might join as well.

They have declined to provide warranty support for my machines, does not perform to spec.

I'm interested in joining this lawsuit as well.

Original Post

Hello all,

After reading all of the customer's nightmares on the Cointerra forum about the Terraminer IV, we've decided to take action. We've also received sub-par machines and/or non functioning Terraminer IV's from Cointerra along with, it seems, 50%+ of the customers. If you have been a victim in this false advertising, non-responsive customer/technical service etc.. send me a message and we can include you. We'll keep you posted along the way. Our lawyers have been on this since last week. Feel free to message or email me. We'll be gathering everyone's specifics and getting down to business. What they are doing/have done is illegal and they will not be getting away with it.


Thank you,


J.R.M.
C.E.O
LKC Services, Inc.
web: lkcservicesinc.com
web: locksmithkeycodes.com
web: lkcsupplies.com
web: replacemyremote.com
web: etownshop.com
email: jmorrison at locksmithkeycodes dot com

More Customer Complaints:

April 4th Requested Refund after email from Cointerra.
April 4th "Ellis" replied request received and it would be "2-4 weeks to process"

May 21st Received "options" email, immediately requested refund and status.
June 30, sent email requesting refund status.
Aug 6th (7 days later), "Laura" from support said they were "processing refunds" and I was "still on the list"

July 2nd Received "zendesk" email "assisting me with my refund process" offering the mining contract, requested refund and status.
July 2nd Received "notified our finance department" and "Richard" closed the ticket.  Requested refund and status

July 9th, got mailchimp email "CoinTerra Refund Status Update" which stated it was scheduled to be processed on 07/29/2014

Aug 6th, sent email requesting refund status.

To date, no reply nor refund.

Status Update
=========

Aug 13th, sent email to jc@cointerra.com referencing this thread
Aug 13th, sent another email to support, referencing my #####, asking status and refund.
Aug 15th, "jc@cointerra.com" replies stating "setbacks in processing"
Aug 18th, "jc@cointerra.com" replies "escalated up your email" and "slated to be refunded in the next batch"

Sept 22, sent email to "jc@cointerra.com" asking for status and refund.

To date, no refund.

[Bicknellski]

Bitmine delays, no refunds just sad miners who want compensation.

Nothing changed for Bitmine customers over the week just hurt and pain.

Has anyone gotten a refund?  Was that just a another lie by Bitmine and Giorgio Massarotto?  I mean seriously can anyone tell me if this is a valid company or a big scam?  They don't respond to emails or phone calls.  They are never at work and of course no machines or refunds given.  I'm truly screwed because I used my savings to buy a machine from them and now I have nothing.  They write on their website why we should trust them but it has almost been a year since sending money to them and I have nothing.  Bitmine and other companies like Bitmine is why less and less people are going to trust Bitcoin.  I have already given up on Bitcoin just because of this and now out $6000.  I hope that they get sued and they get shutdown since they are still "selling" a product that they have yet to produce and/or refund multiple customers.  This is a warning to all that want to buy from Bitmine....DON'T DO IT or you will end up like me.  Broke and wished I hadn't done it.  What a world we live it...and then people wonder why we can't trust each other.  Shame on you Giorgio Massarotto...you truly are a clown!

Basically same story here.  I ordered in Nov 2013 and have been asking for a refund for several months now.  They have ignored my emails and I have even asked to have my order value switched to cloud hashing but my emails are completely ignored.  Living in North America I feel pretty helpless against this scamming company.  I'm only out $3500 but fuck this bitcoin shit.  I was willing to take a small gamble on mining and understand I would have basically lost that bet even if they delivered within a reasonable time frame but to be outright scammed is disgusting to say the least.

I hope Karma shoves a great big chainsaw up their collective assholes, they truly deserve it.

STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM BITMINE, NOTHING BUT A SCAM OPERATION!!!!!

To take a quote from the BA thread.

RETURN OUR MONEY

[Bicknellski]

WILL IT ROI or NOT ROI?

That is the real question consumers want the answer to at this point beyond the will they scam me or not.

There are growing concerns from all miners that 'ROI' could be hard or impossible to achieve by even the most reputable companies like AM, BitmainTech or SpondooliesTech. Make sure you invest more time in calculating potential returns before making any purchase from companies on the Thumbs Up list.

Sample of Debates on "Value":

This goes on in nearly every fabricator thread between Fabricator Fanboi's. What is really funny is the same people argue both sides in opposite threads. Pffft... funny. but seriously home mining at this point is pretty much not a viable option.

why bother pay 14.9 BTC for these when they can only produce like 9-10 BTC ?

So I take it you have a magic crystal ball too?

Mine says these can easily break even with cheap electricity.

lol, you are a joke

even with free electricity they won't ROI.remember they will start shipping in at least 2 weeks from now, you need to pay import tax in your country,and you also have to buy PSUs, cables etc.
you have all these for free ?

If you have to pay 25% import tax you are automatically disqualified from mining, sorry I had to break the news to you. And yes many people have free psus/cables but you can always buy cheap server psus for $25/kw.

let's run a small simulation assuming everything will be in our favor, the small miner:



-only 15 % diff increase (which we all know will be much higher)
-14 TH/S
-free electricity

you will still be in a negative -7.7 BTC in more than 1 year from now on.after 1 year 14 th/s will be worthless

If you've been following the difficulty you would know that the growth rate is slowing down not increasing and it's less than 15% average. The low btc rate will only add to the slowing.

Even in your unrealistic scenario where difficulty growth stays constant at 15% you can still ROI because the actual price of the 14TH is clearly 15btc not 23btc.

Same Debate Different Fabricator Thread on "Value":

So you now admit that you were trolling and talking rubbish about competitors in their thread while praising Spondoolies?

Praising SP-Tech, maybe, but talking rubbish no. Since you refuse to show some examples I am sure that you, as an AM shareholder, have a different way of digesting the reality and the facts when presented to you and that's why you see it as talking rubbish. Until you will present some evidence of talking rubbish your statements are worthless for me.

I wasn't praising AM. In fact, the information I provided showed that the SP35 would be the most valuable miner if all delivery times where immediate, network hash rate was static, BTC price was static and cost of electricity was static. It also showed that the SP20 would be forth, with the S3+ B9 second and an AM Tube in third place. As it stands, the SP20 is just poor value. That's just how it is and nothing you or I say will change that. Only Spondoolies can fix it.

Then why are you so shy to present yourself as an AM shareholder before giving mining advices? Wouldn't it be fair for everyone to know that you have a biased opinion just like you accuse me of having?

Voice of Reason on Value:

Sorry but I paid good money for my magic crystal ball and I'm not about to give away prophecies for free.

But anyways here's a scenario where these could turn a profit: http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=29829733124&dcosts=650&diff_mincrease=15&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=
1480000&diff_mincreasedecrease=4&btcusd=400.11&dpowcon=1100&btcusd_
mincrease=2&pcost=0.05&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=2&action=calc

I think your first line is far closer to the truth of any ROI calculations than the link

Nobody knows how long it'll take for these to ROI (if ever) simply because nobody knows what's going to happen to USD/BTC exchange (if calculating ROI by fiat), nor the difficulty (if calculating ROI by either fiat or BTC).

But with the link in place, which is a highly optimistic estimate, there's specifically the issue of the difficulty.  Right now it suggests break even by 2015/06/13.  However, the next difficulty jump is in just 3 days.. (which is probably about as fast as you could get these sent your way if they even shipped right now), so click the 'next estimate' button, re-calculate, and hey presto... no more break even.

Additionally, if you bought $650 worth of Bitcoin right now at ~$400/BTC, you'd get 1.625BTC.  According to the original calculation, it fizzles out after 2015/12/10, having given 2.44433BTC in revenue, or 0.81933BTC profit.  At that time, the exchange is $833/BTC, so fiat profit would be $682.50.  On the other hand, that 1.625BTC would at that time be worth $1,353, giving a $703.60 profit.
( It's actually a bit worse for the harware, as this excludes operating costs. )

So not only does that scenario seem doomed to fail due to the realities of the impending difficulty increase, it's doomed to fail because you'd be better off buying and holding the BTC.

As much fun as these calculators are for giving lower/upper bounds based on some numbers one plugs in, they're still inferior to a proper crystal ball  

( The above is not a commentary on whether or not these will ROI - I'm with jimmothy on that one, get your own crystal ball. )

this guy must be very dumb or be working for friedcat.    which one is it ?

Neither - he's just handing out a healthy dose of reality; people asking about ROI need to do their own calculations/guesstimates.  His initial statement holds true, regardless... even if it never ROIs, it never ROIs faster than anything else out there due to the favorable price/GHash and W/Ghash.  Or is that slower... hmm.. brainhurt.

Notes from TheRealSteve:

While the basic concepts (and some derivatives I didn't touch on in there, like mining vs holding, mining+periodical selloff vs mining+holding, etc.) apply to the big boys as well, I feel it does the current 'discussion' (antminer S4 vs AsicMiner Tube/Prisma vs cloud hashing .. there's probably more) a bit of a disservice by not delving more deeply into the more intricate parts;

For StickMiners, for example, the hashing performance vs price is generally so poor, that the energy efficiency vs hashing performance is a moot issue.  For the big boys, to those who have the physical hosting, energy contracts, etc. in place, it is quickly becoming one of the primary deciding factors, along with things like depreciation, RMA turnaround, etc.  Others would also certainly be more qualified to write an eloquent post on that (although I feel there should already be one out there).  Though if I had to summarize for the general audience, I'd certainly agree that 'home mining' of Bitcoin, for net positive financial ROI, is dead for anybody who doesn't score a free miner and/or doesn't have to pay for power.

[opieum2]

Forgot about AMT in there, the village idiots version of BFL complete with its own Josh

http://amtminers.wordpress.com/ all the threads opened about them are referenced in the page.   

[Bicknellski]

AMT Ran off with people's money failed to deliver most of orders taken in by the company

Thanks to opieum2 for the link.

Forgot about AMT in there, the village idiots version of BFL complete with its own Josh

http://amtminers.wordpress.com/ all the threads opened about them are referenced in the page.  

[btcrising]

What do you think of SHA hashlets?

[Unacceptable]

What do you think of SHA hashlets?

Not much of anything related to sha mining is going to turn a profit  

Diff is too high (for both "hashlets" & "at home"),power consumption is too high for "at home" miners & most importantly the cost of electricity in residential settings is too high,in most cases.

If your electric rates are more than .08 cents per kwh,your profit margins are going to be very thin.You really need kwh rates of .02-.04 to compete with the massive mining farms that have taken over the network  

The ONLY saving grace in "at home" mining could be the price of BTC....I feel it needs to get to around $800 or above to make it feasible,at least for "at home" miners....& that's only for few more months even then.

So,if you think the BTC price is going to increase,you could justify the "gamble" MAYBE  

The only mining making anything ATM is altcoins & that may not be for much longer,with the 750+mh units coming online very soon  

BTW,keep up the good work Bick!!!!!!!!!! 

Good luck folks!!!!!  

[Bicknellski]

Here is a long well researched and clear thread started by DrG about cloud hashing.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8355686#msg8355686

Now let's compare to cloud mining:

1) Again you hope the company is not a scam.  You don't want to buy a 5 year contract and then have the company run away after collecting up-front contract income for 6 months.  In the crypto world unless you know the names and address of the actual company you are dealing with you will most likely never see your money again.

2&3) Cloud miners typically will deliver exactly what they promised in terms of hasrate or people would get upset at the very first day and it would be bad for their image. You don't need to worry about specs and efficiency.

4) Cloud mining does require the mining company to be able to reliably mine.  I haven't heard of these companies having significant down-time or server issues

5) Just like with actual hardware no mining company has been shown to really be worth buying other than PBMining - and for that we have the issues below

6) You are relying on the company to be in business and holding up their contract for the set duration.  Now consider your contracts with phone carriers, internet access, cable TV etc.  I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in the US these companies are notorious for changing the rules and changing your contract and secretly charging you more fees and trying to trick their customers with the full blessing of the US government (via FTC consent).  Now think about the crytocurrency world where many companies are anonymous and newly created - do you trust a company that has been around for 3 months to honor a 5 year contract?  If they go bankrupt who are you going to call?  Would you trust the 40 year roofing warranty from a 2 month old roofing shingle company?

And that last point #6 is where the biggest issue with cloud mining resides.  Let's forget about whether you'll make money or not.  Let's forget about whether they restrict you to mining on certain pools (or even algorithms if you're mining alternative coins).  Let's assume you get a contract and you start getting income into your wallet.  You have to HOPE that the company stays in business and doesn't shut down for the life of the contract - especially since many of these companies do not allow you to transfer ownership of your contract.  You are trusting these cloud mining companies.  If the company showed me the management positions, pictures of these people, address where the business is headquartered (not necessarily where the mining is going on for security reasons) then perhaps I would be willing to trust these companies.  I run a business myself - I am incorporated in California as a physician and my information is clearly visible to the CA public.  These mining companies should at the very least show you their credentials before you invest with them.

Gavin Anderson, one of the lead BTC developers recently echoed similar sentiments:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/112329/gavin-andresens-fractional-reserve-mining-cloud-miners-respond

For those of you who want proof to see how desperate these companies are, they literally pay people to come onto these boards and post spam supporting them.  Here are users I and others have identified as shill posters.  Click on the user profile and look at their post history.  If 1/2 their posts are promoting a company they are paid shills most likely.  When was the last time you went around telling people how awesome liquid plumber cleaned you pipers  

drawer - new user and 3/4th of his posts are about his supported company
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8309461#msg8309461

testerman - posted the same text in 7 different threads promoting PBMining
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8331652#msg8331652

What do you think of SHA hashlets?

Are those miners that you can get delivered to you?

I guess we have to start another cloud thread for that but it wouldn't be in "hardware".

My feeling would be caution. More caution or even EXTREME caution in calculating out if this is a viable investiment.

I posted my thoughts in the thread "Proof of dishonesty and lies from Gawminers.com Hashlet Ponzi Scheme Scam"

http://bitcoinexaminer.org/bitcoin-developer-gavin-andresen-suspects-cloud-mining-operations-ponzi-schemes/


----

Be careful.

Trust: -964: -24 / +29(29)
Warning: Trade with extreme caution!

Hashlets are difficulty derivatives. They don't have the hardware behind them, they don't need to. They are only a scam if they stop paying out what should be gotten with the hashpower you have paid for.

There is nothing wrong with difficulty derivatives. It is not a scam. If you think this is a scam, you must think that the $22 billion in derivatives trading annually is a scam.

Be very careful.

It was derivatives schemes that emboldened American banks to offer unsecured mortgages, eventually blowing up the global market.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2142429/JP-Morgan-The-592trillion-Ponzi-scheme-time-bomb-ticking-house.html#ixzz3BHQi7RNB
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

@ Unacceptable... thanks will do.

[Bicknellski]

Technobit  Up to 10 week delays in shipment of some customers Minion Group Buy Units.

The hurt / delays continue for some customers of Technobit who have paid substantial amounts for miners over 10 weeks ago.

I agree with scrappy here, Batch 1 should of been sent out by now. reading the thread its totally unprofessional sending out small orders first.
i see some people waiting 10 weeks now for there order to be shipped out and nothing. Seems people with large orders are getting shafted.

I think compensation is due MARTO!!!!

People have been patient with you since you had a problem with the boards, but this now seems to be resolved.
So what exactly is going on??

i do not what to take legal action as BFL are facing and now KNC miner, marto.
You really havent provided any updates to people with large orders on the forum at all.

Please provide a clear update on what is going on and when everyone's orders are going to be fulfilled and compensation package.
with have been patient, but you have taken are patience for granted now.

There is seriously something wrong with this thread. Folks Martin has yet to deliver batch one yet we have 3 confirmed cases of him shipping batch 2. He says "small orders" Fuck that shit. Mine may have been large and paid in fiat. I have as of to date received 6 of 50, and Marto has promised 6 shipping dates and only sent once!

 Guys, enough of the bullshit.

 I paid in fiat for a flat conversion, have been lied to about shipping, and seen batch 2 orders go out before mine. Check the thread, I was in page 2 and traded in 2 x3's and paid in fiat. I know I am not alone here as I have spoke to many of you in pm's. Enough with the BS, bring it.

scrappy do, dam so shipments are just trickling out. i would of thought at least batch 1 would of been completed by now

I haven't received a single one of my 88 boards. My chips have been at technobit since July 17th.

Marto any news when batch 2 will be shipped, its been over a month now since you received my chips. ive emailed you on your site, 2 weeks ago and no reply.
would like to know whats happening with those.

you going to be offering any compensation for late deliveries now. awaiting 25 boards   and counting

 No offense Guyver, but he hasn't even shipped batch one out. Hopefully he will not ship out anymore batch 2 like the mistake made last week. I just got my first partial shipment today 6 of 50. I know its been over a month for you and I hate it, but it has been over 10 weeks for some of us.

We are working and as soon is ready will be  out.

...but we keep hearing this same reply over and over from you.  I've heard this same thing at least 6 times now from you.  Can you tell us what is holding up your shipping?  At first it was because of the MCU, then when that was fixed it was because you were testing the completed boards but what is holding you up now??

Edit:  ...And of course, no response from Marto when asked the 'tough' questions...  This is ridiculous.

If so many mcus are defective wouldn't it make sense to have them all removed and swapped for new ones by a machine and leave the testing for a later time? (I don't know if there is a desoldering machine)

Even 37 boards/day is painfully slow with the total number of boards in mind and it must be quite tiring to do it all by hand time and time again.

Thats a good one.
I made a thread and made an offer. No promises.

Ya... that is certainly how you operate.

People need to rethink using your services if you are not willing to do anything to help these people desperately asking for answers.

You can spend 10 minutes here now arguing with me but there are countless people who are asking for you to provide better service. Both Minersource and Technobit in this thread and these forums have had many issues. People should take this as a clear warning when doing biz with you guys.  NO PROMISES as well as no effort and lay the blame elsewhere.

I think you need to get your priorities in check.

Enjoy your thread.

Yea instead of having Technobit bundle US customers orders up and sent to us, they should all contact Technobit / Marto directly and arrange for shipping.

You are probably 100% right thinking that they'd get them faster and it was a great idea.

There is one customer that I've been emailing about their boards (that we have part of his order for), that will be the last order we reship.

I'm going to pass this to Marto.

**This post is 100% serious, arrangements now need to be made for shipping**

Unfortunately putting all this in Marto's hands may save 'money' the problem is then can he be trusted to get the units shipped. If you look at his history there are significant issues in the past when he has lied about shipping when he was having production delays in the past or when things became less profitable. Whatever the reasons he has yet to be 100% clear on when a specific customer will get their entire order. If you can set a production number daily then you can estimate within good reason when shipping will occur. He is not doing that. That is why people are rightly pissed. Suggest people remember this the next time they deal with Marto. Better to avoid his company use more reputable and reliable companies. Has anyone independently verified the issues that Marto is having with the boards and production numbers or is everyone just trusting what Marto is saying is actually happening?

*Recently Deleted by MinerSource.

In all fairness TechnoBit doesn't respond to questions from potential customers either.

From the looks of it all the Black Arrow customers who chose the Group Buy are much worse off financially than customers who stayed with BA or MinerSource and their incendiary mail bomb. BA & MSs customers are only losing almost 100% of their money, at least 200% in minted Bitcoins at the exchange rates and nobody has died yet. The GB has put a lot more additional out of pocket funds into this cluster-fuck.

How many of those that chose the GB option also sent BA additional funds for Power Supply Units?

These PSUs were for the promised but yet to be delivered compensation units. BA promised to deliver compensation units after they've completed shipping of all orders.

The PSUs use in BAs miner has caused multiple explosive detonations due to to high voltage leakage from the PSUs. The leakage polarized the high capacity aluminium electrolytic capacitors that were added to unused sections of the Printed Circuit Board. The capacitors were polarized in the wrong direction with voltage that far exceed the capacitors rating. An explosive release of an ionically conductive liquid into the miner occurred resulting in combustion of the energized and populated PCB; open flame and toxic smoke being the final result.

BA, MS and TB customers are all experiencing an unreasonable shipping delay in paid for Minion based SHA-256 hashing hardware.

4 Scam Accusation Threads About Technobit:

Scam alert technobit.eu
Marto74 BFL-Style SCAMMER   
Attention A Technobit.EU
Technobit.eu SCAM ALERT (Fraud, Scam, No Refund, wrong promises)

[Bicknellski]

Another BFL PSA:

People should tell their stories asap... to help make certain that BFL is not put back in charge of the company come Monday.

Anyone see this gem in the BFL Monarch thread?

09-23-2014, 04:39 PM #14
FTCinfo  

I have just had a very nice conversation with Helen Wong at the FTC. She is the staff contact with the Division of Financial Practices regarding BFL.

The assets of BFL have been frozen pending the outcome of the hearing at 9am on Monday, September 29th. At this hearing, the court will determine the future of the company, to wit:

a. They have failed to fulfill obligations to customers and will not regain control of the company, at which point the FTC, courts and appointed receiver will begin working on the issuance of refunds to customers. (She was unable to speak as to whether or not the current refund queue order would be altered)

b. They have claimed they have begun to fulfill obligations to customers, but it has been found that the actually have not and will not regain control of the company, at which point the FTC, courts and appointed receiver will begin working on the issuance of refunds to customers. (Again, She was unable to speak as to whether or not the current refund queue order would be altered)

c. They have begun fulfilling obligations to customers, but in a manner that is not consistent or not in sync with consumer protection regulation at which point issuance of refunds would be overseen by the FTC and/or courts. (It was unclear as to whether this would be while under the control of a receiver or BFL)

d. They have begun fulfilling obligations to customers, are breaking no laws or regulation and no action should be taken, at which point BFL continues business as usual.

Yes, those are the 4 possible outcomes of the hearing on Monday. I hope everyone who placed an order with BFL - especially those who had a refund denied or delayed more than 45 days at any time during their interactions with BFL - has shared their experiences with the appointed temporary receiver, Mr. Johnson, at eljreceiver@spencerfane.com, so the court reaches the appropriate decision. I know I have.

Edit: Thanks opieum2... let us hope many people post as much relevant info as possible on BFL.