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Author Topic: Crypto Kingdom - 1991 Retro Virtual World(City)  (Read 632693 times)
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vokain
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October 12, 2014, 01:48:36 PM
 #21

many have lots to learn from a Game like this Wink

Godspeed, good sirs!
rpietila (OP)
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October 12, 2014, 02:06:08 PM
 #22

A three week turnaround for coding all these ideas sounds pretty quick, how many people do you have working on this?

Am I right in saying there will almost be two games in this, a MMO game of civ that collectively all players play and then a meta game of managing the specific plot of land that you own?

Regarding theme, your game is called crypto kingdom, shouldn't there be more made of the the fact it is funded by a crypto currency. Because at the moment it's the equivalent of naming your game "Sid Miers Fiat World" just because of the way you buy the game.

If you want to increase the theme, you could add Millie farms into the game, or ask players to crack simple maths problems to access certain areas, or if you want to really push the envelope you could add a evil banking cartel to the game as a sort of antagonist.

Would you consider a way of tipping the owners of a house  with Millies if it is offering a good service to the community?


For coding all, certainly 3 weeks is not enough, except perhaps from a fully thought-out spex (developing of which takes a long time). For coding the initial features, 3 weeks is enough.

The facets of the game will be:

- Online MMORPG of interacting with other people via trollboxes, going to stores to conduct exchange, etc. The content will be largely developed by the players themselves.

- Resource management aspect of keeping your character in good shape. It is possible to participate in MMORPG as a "stranger" for free, and as "visiting merchant"/"visiting noble" against a fee. Ingame, you can also engage in industry and make your character raise in the levels, which makes upkeep higher but opens up new opportunities also. Then you can be a noble who owns so much land that he can play with his peers and earn $50 per month actual income (for example). Another one does not care about resource management and has to constantly fund the account to retain his lifestyle. Just like in real world.

- Civ-style aspect comes in both the city map (latest thought - consisting of 10x15 plot pages that can be accessed in a mobile screen), and the country map (consisting of farmland that has a certain production per plot). In the city, players compete for the location of taverns, pharmacies and other places that the characters must visit, in the countryside the grand scheme of things is constructing roads that the goods can flow to the city when it grows bigger and more food is needed. Therefore the Duchies far away are entirely speculative, and near the city they are very valuable productive assets.

There will be plenty of aspects that tie the game up with cryptotheme, for example the bot-weeding procedure of asking a character to visit a certain registry office, where Monero-goodnews is preached, also giveaways will be plentiful. The game is not intended to make money but to increase knowledge about Monero and its use.

A new type of social network will also be introduced for making ingame friends and communicating with them.

Tipping is enabled in every level.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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October 12, 2014, 03:34:26 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2014, 05:33:48 PM by iourzzz
 #23

Excellent idea!

Have you considered developing in Unity? (http://unity3d.com/). It's one of the most popular multi-platform game engines now. It's usable for 2D as well and one code will work everywhere including browsers, desktop, facebook and mobile devices. Other popular choice around professionals now is LibGDX (http://libgdx.badlogicgames.com/features.html)

But anyway you will need some server programming as well. Such games are always front-end (any engine like these or just html5) + back-end (server side, where all DBs are kept).

3 weeks sounds too much optimistic for the first real alpha version even with minimal functionality. Such projects always take more time than we think in the beginning.

It's very important for the developers to plan all future architecture in advance before actual programming. Otherwise you will build a house without a basement and after that will need to repair and repair it each time when adding new functionality.

Other popular conception is to build a simple prototype. Three weeks look real for it. Test it for playability and after that plan and build a new concrete basement for the real game. If there are enough people in a team both tasks can go simultaneously.

I wish you success with such a great project and will be happy to beta test.
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October 12, 2014, 04:20:16 PM
 #24

Looking forward to building a town, then city, then world...



Ambitious. I might try a music bar - a virtual Marquee or the Fillmore Inside.
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October 12, 2014, 04:22:58 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2014, 04:34:22 PM by vokain
 #25

Looking forward to building a town, then city, then world...



I always did prefer winning by building the spaceship in Civ, to me it was a much more enrichening experience Smiley
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October 12, 2014, 04:32:33 PM
 #26

Where you found civilization? It was reason why i bought my first computer. I remember, well more with Civ2, i spent like few weeks almost no sleep and just play. Tongue  Well if i cut off brothers ZX Spectrum.
rpietila (OP)
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October 12, 2014, 06:41:36 PM
 #27

The hype is building up quite quickly..

Can you give an estimated launch date of the game itself?

Well 3 weeks was indeed given as an estimate, from the time of spex availability ofcourse. You have to remember that the graphical side of things is pretty much nonexistent, so once I develop the concept and the mechanisms of the game economy (this work is still in progress very much), the competent developers can work amazingly fast to transform it to a playable thing because of the platforms available.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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October 12, 2014, 08:44:15 PM
 #28


Wow this is great. I'm gonna start coding.

Have you considered developing in Unity? (http://unity3d.com/). It's one of the most popular multi-platform game engines now. It's usable for 2D as well and

What's annoying with Unity is that it's a plugin that doesn't work on all configs.
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October 12, 2014, 09:05:45 PM
 #29


3 weeks sounds too much optimistic for the first real alpha version even with minimal functionality. Such projects always take more time than we think in the beginning.

It's very important for the developers to plan all future architecture in advance before actual programming. Otherwise you will build a house without a basement and after that will need to repair and repair it each time when adding new functionality.

Other popular conception is to build a simple prototype. Three weeks look real for it. Test it for playability and after that plan and build a new concrete basement for the real game. If there are enough people in a team both tasks can go simultaneously.

There are a number of very high end concepts being shown off here that could take a long time to release, however even if only one of these comes off this could be fantastic.

The first one is the ability for "engineers" to add functionality to their homes such as tic tac toe or simple dice games or just to advertise real life services to all players who visit their area.

The second is the merging of a free to play RPG style game in with a paid building simulation where both games feed into each other. I'm not sure if I've ever seen something like this before in webpage form.

The third is a way to get people interested in crypto currency who would otherwise have never thought twice about it, the market in question being the coders and gamers who have used closed online currencies in game worlds before but haven't made the leap to crypto currencies before.
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October 13, 2014, 09:29:33 AM
Last edit: October 13, 2014, 09:49:49 AM by rpietila
 #30

Some highlights from the econometric side of the game

(I am talking about v.2 - the first version hardly has any resource management due to the time needed for implementing it)


Gold is a pseudomonetary-prestige-dividend-paying resource.
Millies(m) is 1/1000 of XMR
1 Gold ~ 50m in the example.

If the game catapults to world-fame due to its ease of use, we can estimate 100k players who are in resource-management levels of 3-11, playing 20 hours/month, and 200k players in levels 1-2, playing 10 hours/month. I have converted all figures to XMR for ease of use, and "millies" (small "m" - capital "M" is a million, and Mm is thus 1,000 XMR, a lot of money ingame) is the ingame currency that you can buy with XMR. Although the game does not buy it back, you may find a way if you have too much of it.

Everybody gets 1 gold per 2 hours of real-life time online. This works out to 25m/hour. The ones in level 1-2 who don't have other income, may spend in in whereever they like, providing incentive for ingame businessmen. In total, the gold just comes from heaven and boosts the game by 25m/hour * 4M hours/month = 100Mm. Thus, in a real-month, about 1km real value per active player is created. They get it in the form of gold, however, and the value of gold may fluctuate against XMR. What stays constant is the fiat value of gold awarded per hour of time online.

New millies come to the game if people load their accounts with XMR. Since millies is the most divisible and practical unit of currency, and prices are expressed in millies, it is expected to be regarded as "money" by the players, but it is interesting to see whether "hard-currency" markets develop with pricing tied to gold or USD.

The game progresses 24 times faster than real life, so a character who enters play at the age of 20, will get weak and die somewhere past-40 (or much later if he's had access to fine wine, fresh air and doctors - all luxuries in the game). This works out about 1 year real-life time for a character.

From level 3 onwards, the character needs to eat, drink, clothe himself, and live in a rental unit or his own house. Optionally he can use a driver to visit the distant areas of the city, or the countryside. He can buy medicines and treatments from doctors for the sickness that often hits. He can build and adorn houses. He can start ingame "game-mechanist" businesses such as a distillery, and last but most important of them all - participate in the user-generated content that will often have fees for the reason that one attraction has a limited size in terms of number of simultaneous users.

The minimum one can live with without reducing to pauper level is about 200 millies per game-month, which works out to 4.8 XMR per real month(!). My estimation for the modest Noble is 2000 millies per game-month (48 XMR per real month). Now this can be compared to the cost of playing similar games like EVE Online for about 15 XMR per month.

Playing in different levels is of course not only paying, sometimes you are able to earn income. In good times the income well covers the costs, in bad times you may be reduced to drink that darn Mead again. Typically entering Level 3 should be an easy step, then it would get progressively more difficult if you had not built the earnings capacity. Skilful playing with a high-level character that is self-sufficient is certainly fun - more likely though is the pauper noble-case, with family lands yielding very little in monetary terms, and city palace falling into disrepair as well...

The game has an open resource-based economy with the following resources:
- food (different types)
- drink (different types)
- wool (for making clothes)
- garments (different types)
- stone (for building)
- wood (for building)
- gold (for lasting glory, which in turn pays dividends)
- XMR (for payments).

Food, some drinks, wool, stone and wood (so almost everything!) is produced in the estates outside the town. Some estates are so far away, there is no road and terrain is so bad that they practically cannot sell stuff to the town, and only some of the resources are non-perishable. The market is self-calibrating so that when town is consuming more of a certain item, it becomes profitable to send more of it despite the high cost of transport. If the situation persists that previously marginal farms are now profitable, their owners want to build the road also to increase profits. Thus the estates (about 100,000 sq.km of them, starting in 1 sq.km family farms) come to play gradually even though they exist in the game since the beginning. Marginal estates are self-sufficient, they may occasionally send you a shipment of foie gras but that's about all that makes sense to transport from afar.

Some other items are imported. Practically the money goes to the Town Council.

- Created (to players in relation to online time): Gold
- Produced (in estates, with transport cost vs. demand profitability mechanism): Stone, Wood, Wool, food, drinks
- Imported (buyable in council shops): food, drinks, specialty non-standalone items such as windows
- Made (in tailorshops): garments
- Exchanged (official deposit points emit millies if you pay XMR): millies


Now if the city has those 100,000 active players and the rest duly squander their free money, the GDP works out to about the following (numbers are per real-month = 2 years of ingame time:

200,000 players * 250m = 50 Mm (occasional players)
50,000 players * 7,700m = 385 Mm (lower middle class)
45,000 players * 19,700m = 887 Mm (middle class)
4,900 players * 72,500m = 355 Mm (barons, earls)
100 players * 240,500m = 24 Mm (dukes)

The total GDP is a whopping 1,700,000,000m (in 2 years, which happens to coincide with one month of our time).

I have an updating list about the inputs and outputs of the GDP, the whole value-creation process, self-balancing loops of numerous small industries and professions etc. For example, the Mead is sold in Tavern for 2m. You can drink a lot (for $0.002 a shot) without ever realizing that the price consists of the following:

0.0m raw materials
0.6m distillery value-added
0.5m drinks tax
0.2m transport
0.7m tavern margin.

Since 100,000*720*80% = 57.6 million shots of Mead are consumed in a real-month, the small number add up and the tax income alone is 28.8 Mm per real-month. The town council is able to tax the economy 1.7% by putting a 0.5 milley tax on the cheapest drink! Smiley

This serves as an example that for a shrewd businessman, there are fortunes to be made once the game grows bigger. And the easiest way to get there is to start when the game is small Wink

Oh, one more thing before it gets too long. Property values. Since the buildings ingame are made of stone, the buildings are very durable and fall into disrepair only after 25 gameyears on average. This makes construction of even a small building a 10,000m+ undertaking. A townhouse would be 40km or more, with the grandest palaces in hundreds. It is difficult or impossible to earn such sums ingame (same as you can very seldom earn your way to buy a house without mortgage in any western country). On the other hand, renting a room can be done via an automatic subsystem where the owners just list rooms that are available and tenants can start to pay 20m per month or whatever is needed (in the game, the rent is only about 10% of typical expenditure).

Comments appreciated! Smiley

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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October 13, 2014, 03:00:17 PM
 #31

That’s more or less the method that most games with ingame currency use to regulate money and experience in relation to time spent playing, in fact some use daily bonuses for players, for instance giving them twice the amount of gold for the first few hours every day playing in encourage them to keep coming back.

What methods do you plan on using to prevent paid players from getting monopolies on a single type of goods by buying the closest estates and then crippling the game world by overcharging for goods before others can get the transport infrastructure up to go elsewhere?

On an unrelated but interesting note you mentioned that you played many board games, which ones in particular have influenced you in the design on this game?

If you have the backend engineer work sorted for this game do you need any help with the music or art design?

Assuming you will promote the crypto paid aspects of this game on this forum, how do you intend on promoting the free aspects of the game to others, is there a plan or is it just word of mouth?
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October 13, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
 #32

Does this project have anything to do with MEW? Or is this a personal venture?

Are you planning on creating a company that will run this game and eventually try to become profitable? Or do you plan to fund it out of your pocket indefinitely and just try to break even as a passion project?

Fun projects are good, but lots of games such as this have become extremely successful financially. Just look at the top revenue apps in the apple app store, almost all games.

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October 13, 2014, 10:33:03 PM
Last edit: October 13, 2014, 10:46:04 PM by rpietila
 #33

That’s more or less the method that most games with ingame currency use to regulate money and experience in relation to time spent playing, in fact some use daily bonuses for players, for instance giving them twice the amount of gold for the first few hours every day playing in encourage them to keep coming back.

I could implement that as well.

Most industries are such that people can go offline for some time, for example a tailor makes a new suit, which in gametime takes 2 months (2.5 days). The work is not disturbed, whether you are online or offline. Farming has a yearly cycle (15 days) and the arrival of new potatoes is a great happening, because by custom, when the first new potatoes are brought to the city, the remnants of the last year's ones are gathered to the tournament field for a big festival. The rotting potatoes contribute to the bad water quality, but this is the way it's always been done...

New potatoes cannot be brought from very far because they get spoilt in the sun. They command a high price though, because all the old ones were discarded and people need to eat meat if potatoes cannot be had. A skilful farmer optimizes between getting his potatoes off the ground when they still are expensive - although the crop is smaller and partly suffers in transit - and letting them until autumn when he gets more, and can transport them in cooler climate, but they are worth not much. Or chooses to produce beer or sheep altogether.

The average living standard per game-month is now 2,000-3,000 millies and milley has been devalued to 1:10,000 XMR. Thus, a month in real life (2y gametime) rotates the account by 5-7 XMR. EVE Online is raking in about $0.20 per player-hour. Here we are talking more like $0.02-$0.03 because the game is free, but hosting it is also not as difficult. More hobby project than a serious business, yes.

I have developed the aspects of character lifespan and playing with multiple characters. Food and drinks are expensive in the game, so eating and drinking well, significantly extends your life. Long life is important for rising in the ranks of nobility, so that eventually the King may make you a Grand Duke and give you 10% of the country as feoff, including 50,000 hectares of own land and massive income. This is the prize for life-lasting service, and you may enjoy it as long as you live. Then it reverts back to the King.

There is a rumor that the King is ailing. Perhaps he will die soon, in which case one of the Grand Dukes will be crowned. Oh, too early. I need 7-10 more years and then I could be the one. - Now, they say that eating caviar every day stops your aging completely... Better safe than sorry. The town palace I can repair while waiting for the King to die... Suddenly having 5x as much landed income helps a lot  Grin Perhaps building a new palace is a more prudent course of action...?

Here one can see that I am making the countryside produce the resources needed for building, clothing and food. The farms are up for grabs, only that you must pay taxes. This keeps only part of the countryside claimed (although the peasants live there all the time) because some parts are too distant to make it profitable in any means.

The Earls and higher nobles live off their own lands + taxes paid by their subjects in kind. So the farming feudalism is that serfs do the work, the "farmer" player controls the outcome, but must pay taxes to each: Earl, to Duke and to King.



HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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October 13, 2014, 11:25:44 PM
 #34

I think I remember playing this game http://www.lotgd.net/home.php? when it was hosted on some website's community back in the day
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October 13, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
 #35

For example "Social" badge is awarded from the total lines of chat written in the various trollboxes:
- bronze for 10 lines
- silver for 100 lines
- gold for 1,000 lines
- platinum for 10,000 lines
- diamond for 100,000 lines.
What! No Rhodium? Smiley Idea: mimic the ranking to MEW
Seriously, though, reminding MEW and thus Monero should be considering. Consolidating ideas.
Code:
Iron
Zinc
Copper
Nickel
          bronze for 10 lines
Silver    silver for 100 lines
Palladium
Gold      gold for 1,000 lines
Platinum  platinum for 10,000 lines
Rhodium
Diamond   diamond for 100,000 lines

Apart from this, it should be clear to everyone that a large part of the game will be about user-generated content and actions, much like EVE online - a sandbox. This is a great way to empower more and more people and so to spread the love of Monero.

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October 13, 2014, 11:48:17 PM
 #36

Sounds interesting would so love to play it. Is there a website where I can check the game out?
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October 14, 2014, 09:17:29 PM
 #37

This sounds like fun. Interestingly though, something similar has happened to Valve a couple of years ago where they hired a well known economics professor to contemplate their introduced virtual currency. The guy has posted an extensive article back then about his findings and -believe it or not- this is the way towards creating a more robust economy. By beta testing it within virtual environments.

If this is the case, well done Risto.
If this is not the case, please consider the possibility.


Cheers and...

Watching! Smiley

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October 14, 2014, 11:07:48 PM
 #38

This sounds really cool!

Will be watching this thread!  Grin
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October 15, 2014, 12:21:54 AM
 #39

I'm going to have to polish up my renaissance patter if I am going to ascend to the role of court jester...

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October 15, 2014, 01:10:58 PM
 #40

This totally seems legit. Actually this sounds awesome! I especially like the part where you remind people that all the real value they put in to your game belongs to the rightful owner.

I am sure this wouldn't work if there wasn't this "i am The KING, you're all my servants and slaves" stuff around..! Good job!

This sounds really cool!

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