GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[puwaha]

I have no doubt that you do not understand what I am saying, that is quite obvious. The entire Paycoin mining system is in essence a single pool controlled by GAW, which is the primary coin holder. It does not matter what fancy catch phrases are used to describe it.

I'd have to disagree with you here.  During POW, you can mine your coins into existence using any pool you choose into your own personal wallet.  All of this is outside GAW's control.  During POS, you are free to stake your coins in your own personal wallet, which is also outside GAW's control.

Thanks for pointing that out Sherlock. You think maybe I knew that since I am renting miners? Maybe you should scan back a page and see where this was already discussed.

Also: Better hurry up and rent some more miners, the clock is ticking down!

Got.. To.. Stay.. Awake.... Little... Longer...Must... trade... entire... future... for... promises.. by.... guy.. with... vest....

So your beef is with GAW and not with Paycoin, am I reading you correctly?

I just want to establish what we are talking about here.

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[jp333]

Interesting comment just showed up. A skeptical person would question the semantics...

GAWCEO Said: Nothing has changed guys, we will value XPY in paybase at $20

https://hashtalk.org/topic/24266/new-coindesk-paycoin-article/29

[Truthfull]

GAW is Arabic for SCAM

We demand proof of data center all we get is photoshop fakes

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GAW-data-center-hi.jpg

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=5c75ecd96a47b86c10ce399016eb10f96bbe3860.61284&fmt=ela&size=600&i=5156107

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GAW-hashing-center.jpg

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=1c9605403b67c25491ad899c5532417a97caf089.32546&fmt=ela&size=600&i=5186316

I demand proof of delivery of Hashlet

[puwaha]

No, what I'm saying is why spend money on exchanges to buy coins?  They have enough debits to worry about with the HP->XPY->BTC/USD sell off from their own customers.  They need to have the money to support this sell-off from their customers.  And by doing so within paybase, they get the same effect from the exchanges that they want without having to buy coins from the exchanges.  They can't control the price on the exchange, but they can manipulate behavior a bit by only guaranteeing the $20 via paybase.

Translation: They have no intentions of paying $20 for Paycoins. If they did they would be buying them right now for $5.

Example: I am a builder. Let's say I need 100 sheets of plywood for a job next week that I a obligated to do. Today the sheets of plywood are on sale for $5. The sale ends Sunday, and Monday I will have to pay $20 per sheet. Are you REALLY so stupid that you would pay $20 instead of $5?? Do you REALLY not know the difference between $500 and $2,000?? Another product victim of our educational system. Shocking.

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

[puwaha]

Ok, so say I make something that violates the terms of service of amazon and sell it to thousands of people. The people using it get in trouble but I get off free as a bird?

It goes back to the age old argument:  Do guns kill people, or do people who use guns kill people?

That's not how it works my friends and regardless of how you read the ToS they're actually interfering with the transactions of the website, not just doing a Google search. LOL how delusional are these shills? Ignored, but feel free to post your useless rebuttal for other people to read. I have no need for futile bickering. I have all the photographic proof I need. Have a good day shills (or should I say Homero Joshua Garza's secondary accounts).

That is how it works.  When *YOU* accept the TOS from Walmart, *YOU* are entering a legal contract with Walmart that *YOU* will obey their terms.  GAW did not enter that contract.

We had the same concerns. After speaking to lawyers at Amazon extensively they've explained it in a way that makes sense to us at least.

The source code for the plugin has to communicate with an outside GAW owned server... meaning that even though the plugin is hosted on the computer of the end-user that GAW is now also "accessing the site" and that makes them liable to follow the TOS just as everyone else does.

The source code from the plugin ZincSave was already downloaded and audited by Amazon (back when it first was a thing before it went offline) and a third party so they are intimately familiar with how it works and the API calls it makes online.

We hope to have our full report online soon. We just got confirmation from Best Buy this morning regarding the situation and a comment from them and are still waiting to hear back from Target once again.

I'd just like to thank Coinfire for their reporting on this and suchmoon for this thread.

Notice how not one of these shills has commented on this UH OH, I THINK WE ARE ONTO SOMETHING BOYS lmfao. So what happens when GAW gets Cease and Desists from all the retailers that it's coin is supposed to be used at?

The plugin is not released yet... so it remains to be seen.  I appreciate Coinfire doing their investigative pieces.

[pd62512005]

The only point I'm here to make is being made. Anyone can launch a smear campaign, with baseless fodder. The reason we can all talk about pyramid schemes, and ponzi schemes is because there was proof. Not just opinions. When you look for proof the allegations here fall apart. I would refund my purchases if there was proof.

It really doesn't work that way.

As puppet nicely put it:

A ponzi is defined by the absence of a mechanism to generate revenue or profits (in this case: mining hardware). Proving something is a ponzi would therefore require proving a negative. You can not prove a negative, so in theory its possible any of the companies I labeled as "ponzi" are in fact mining. But thats like saying in theory its possible unicorns do exist or that its possible that Nigerian Prince who emailed you yesterday, really inherited a $500M gold mine concession and wants to share it with you. You can not prove thats not true either, but to most sensible people the complete absence of evidence is a very compelling to dismiss the claim, and thus certaily reason enough not to invest there.

All we can do is look for indicators, like paying out the old investors using funds from the new investors (never from actual mining proceeds), refusing to provide a mining address, or showing pics that amount to 1/100th of your claimed mining capacity.

Out of the claimed 200,000 customers of theirs I see 50, maybe 100 people pissed about different issues. 4 have reported them in the typical legitimate old school ways. 3 resolved satisfactorily Maybe more have secretly. And when that information comes available publicly I will accept it if its factual. I believe most huge retailers would love to have those stats.

Anyone can make up numbers. In fact jimmothycoin has 500 million users world wide and zero complaints. Impressive right?

Fact is there is zero evidence to support the countless unbelievable claims GAW is making. There is however plenty of evidence to suggest they are all/mostly BS.

So your saying every company everywhere is a ponzi scheme? That's intelligent. I mean theres no way to  prove a negative. So the whole world is a ponzi scheme. The universe, god, rocks, the color gray, its all one big ponzi scheme.

I'm enlightened, thanks :/

[Paul Revere]

No, what I'm saying is why spend money on exchanges to buy coins?  They have enough debits to worry about with the HP->XPY->BTC/USD sell off from their own customers.  They need to have the money to support this sell-off from their customers.  And by doing so within paybase, they get the same effect from the exchanges that they want without having to buy coins from the exchanges.  They can't control the price on the exchange, but they can manipulate behavior a bit by only guaranteeing the $20 via paybase.

Translation: They have no intentions of paying $20 for Paycoins. If they did they would be buying them right now for $5.

Example: I am a builder. Let's say I need 100 sheets of plywood for a job next week that I a obligated to do. Today the sheets of plywood are on sale for $5. The sale ends Sunday, and Monday I will have to pay $20 per sheet. Are you REALLY so stupid that you would pay $20 instead of $5?? Do you REALLY not know the difference between $500 and $2,000?? Another product victim of our educational system. Shocking.

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

The "logic" you are applying here is so ass backwards I do not even know where to start to try to explain it to you. If you do not understand that buying something you must have for $5 instead of $20 is a better business practice I am afraid I will simply never be able to reach you. Kind of like trying to explain to my dog how to knit a sweater. Pretty much a wasted effort. Good luck!

Oh, and don't forget to rent more miners!!

[welchy8764]

If paycoins are worth 20, why don't they scoop up all these 7 dollar coins to put 13 bucks in their pocket?

Why would they reward dumpers?  Wouldn't they rather reward their faithful paybase users with the wall?

I don't think you understood the question.

There are coins out there that are supposedly valued at $20 each, selling in an exchange for $7. If you believe the $20 hype, then these wild coins are extremely undervalued.

If GAW buys the cheap coins and takes them out of circulation, they have just saved themselves $13 they have to pay out to someone who cashes that coin in on their $20 wall. That seems like common sense.

Look at it this way.  Say there will be 500K coins out in circulation by end of POW.  And GAW expects another 500K of dumping from customers at paybase.  Why would they eat into their own reserves to reward dumpers (GAW is still losing $7 of their reserve per coin to the dumpers)... when they can just buoy their own customer base at the $20 promised?  The miner/dumpers will have to take their low sell bids off of the exchanges and take them to paybase to get $20 per coin.  Removing the low sell bids from the exchanges can increase the value of the remaining coins on the exchanges.

What gets me is that all these GAWites want to buy these cheap coins so they can turn them around for $20 later. They are not doing it to protect Paycoin, they are doing it to cash in... just like everybody else... They are all hypocrites, claiming to protect Paycoin so they can exploit it later. So who is doing more damage now, eh?

I'm in it for the money.  Any honest-with-themselves bitcoiner will tell you the same.


I did buy one coin from an exchange to see if the wallet in Zen would accept it.  I don't like to play the trading game.

They are not eating into the reserve by buying off exchange. According to them they have millions of dollars so that they can give everyone $20 for a paycoin. If they give someone $7  for a paycoin they have $13 to keep, put back into the pool, give to the investors, set on fire, whatever. Every coin they buy for less than 20 bucks gives them more money. It's not that complicated. If I offered to give you a dollar bill if you gave me a quarter how would that eat into your reserve at all? Same thing here.

You really think there are reserves? Why wouldnt they be buying now? There no reserve and your fooling yourself to think 20 is even close to a price that you will receive.

[jimmothy]

The only point I'm here to make is being made. Anyone can launch a smear campaign, with baseless fodder. The reason we can all talk about pyramid schemes, and ponzi schemes is because there was proof. Not just opinions. When you look for proof the allegations here fall apart. I would refund my purchases if there was proof.

It really doesn't work that way.

As puppet nicely put it:

A ponzi is defined by the absence of a mechanism to generate revenue or profits (in this case: mining hardware). Proving something is a ponzi would therefore require proving a negative. You can not prove a negative, so in theory its possible any of the companies I labeled as "ponzi" are in fact mining. But thats like saying in theory its possible unicorns do exist or that its possible that Nigerian Prince who emailed you yesterday, really inherited a $500M gold mine concession and wants to share it with you. You can not prove thats not true either, but to most sensible people the complete absence of evidence is a very compelling to dismiss the claim, and thus certaily reason enough not to invest there.

All we can do is look for indicators, like paying out the old investors using funds from the new investors (never from actual mining proceeds), refusing to provide a mining address, or showing pics that amount to 1/100th of your claimed mining capacity.

Out of the claimed 200,000 customers of theirs I see 50, maybe 100 people pissed about different issues. 4 have reported them in the typical legitimate old school ways. 3 resolved satisfactorily Maybe more have secretly. And when that information comes available publicly I will accept it if its factual. I believe most huge retailers would love to have those stats.

Anyone can make up numbers. In fact jimmothycoin has 500 million users world wide and zero complaints. Impressive right?

Fact is there is zero evidence to support the countless unbelievable claims GAW is making. There is however plenty of evidence to suggest they are all/mostly BS.

So your saying every company everywhere is a ponzi scheme? That's intelligent. I mean theres no way to  prove a negative. So the whole world is a ponzi scheme. The universe, god, rocks, the color gray, its all one big ponzi scheme.

I'm enlightened, thanks :/

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Several companies have proven they aren't a ponzi/fractional reserve, GAW is not one of them.

[jfabritz]

Please go download the wallet, obtain a coin, and stake on your own. 

I didn't think that end-users could stake with the home wallet. If this is true, why even buy a hashstaker from GAW?

[cryptofunk]

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

You're missing the point, people are buying it below $10 to dump it for $20 next week.  Keeping the $5 example, if GAW buys it today it costs $5, if they don't and someone else does they will have to buy the SAME coin for $20 next week.

Buy today: It costs GAW $5 and they can sell it next week for $20
Don't buy today: someone buys it for $5 and sell it to GAW next week for $20, it costs GAW $20

So people are wondering why they aren't buying right now if there is a $20 floor...

[interstellar]

I would like to know if GAW is going to ask for personal information how are they going to protect it. They Still have said nothing about that.

Jimmothy - Thanks for bringing up the MSB also. No one on HT has gave me a straight answer yet as to who they are doing business as.

Why, after they have every bit of data necessary to steal your identity they will of course lock it up in one of these cute little buggers:



These are very secure and there is an infinite amount of storage room in them even though they will be stuffed with Staked Paycoins, because they are completely imaginary and are actually just CAD renderings. You can't break in to something that does not exist right? See, Josh has the security issue all figured out. Go ahead and send your SSN and scan of Driver's License, Bank Numbers, Mothers Maiden Name, etc etc. No worries!

Again: The difference between what Josh is doing and stealing candy from a baby is that a baby has the common sense to cry when you steal his lollypop.

Hey this just gave me a great business "idea" for gaw.. When they get all this KYC info, they should encrypt it in the block chain and then if the customer ever speaks out or stops paying out, they can then threaten to make the key public. Got em locked in for eternity!

[puwaha]

No, what I'm saying is why spend money on exchanges to buy coins?  They have enough debits to worry about with the HP->XPY->BTC/USD sell off from their own customers.  They need to have the money to support this sell-off from their customers.  And by doing so within paybase, they get the same effect from the exchanges that they want without having to buy coins from the exchanges.  They can't control the price on the exchange, but they can manipulate behavior a bit by only guaranteeing the $20 via paybase.

Translation: They have no intentions of paying $20 for Paycoins. If they did they would be buying them right now for $5.

Example: I am a builder. Let's say I need 100 sheets of plywood for a job next week that I a obligated to do. Today the sheets of plywood are on sale for $5. The sale ends Sunday, and Monday I will have to pay $20 per sheet. Are you REALLY so stupid that you would pay $20 instead of $5?? Do you REALLY not know the difference between $500 and $2,000?? Another product victim of our educational system. Shocking.

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

The "logic" you are applying here is so ass backwards I do not even know where to start to try to explain it to you. If you do not understand that buying something you must have for $5 instead of $20 is a better business practice I am afraid I will simply never be able to reach you. Kind of like trying to explain to my dog how to knit a sweater. Pretty much a wasted effort. Good luck!

Oh, and don't forget to rent more miners!!

If my logic is so "ass backwards"... then tell me... Why does GAW have to buy any XPY?  They already have the 12 million they need to distribute to prime controllers and haspoint conversion customers.  They don't have any more obligation to the price on any exchange other than their own.

If you don't understand that, then I guess we are done then.

[interstellar]

I just want to convert my hp into xpy and dump them then I can be done with this company and this thread once and for all.

Youll Miss us.   

I don't know what I'll do with all the time. Maybe learn how to play the piano or another language or maybe I'll launch my own shit coin or ponzi. Grinning.

LOL you really think Homero will let you out of this nightmare that easily?

[puwaha]

Please go download the wallet, obtain a coin, and stake on your own. 

I didn't think that end-users could stake with the home wallet. If this is true, why even buy a hashstaker from GAW?

So you can stake with higher rate of return.  The higher rate is based off the prime controller's staking rate which gets an advantage over a home wallet staker.  A hashstaker gets a cut of the prime controller's transaction fees, advanced services, etc.


If you aren't comfortable with GAW, then by all means, stake your paycoin in your own personal wallet.  You don't have to have anything to do with GAW if you don't want.  Stake your coins for a while... see if the exchange rate gets better on exchanges after the POW-dump-off and initial HP-XPY conversion sell-off.

[jfabritz]

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

I would argue from an accounting POV that these discounted coins are a liability against the declared value at retail. If Joe Blow paid $20 for the coin and uses it at a $20 value, its a wash. But if Miner Bob redeems his coin for $20 and it only cost him $7, he sees an increase in value of $13. That $13 has to come from somewhere and it comes out of GAW's pockets.

You know what is even worse for GAW? If more people spend their hashpoint converted coins than they project. Those coins are valued at $4 versus $7 from the mined coins. The only saving grace they have is that all the 'hashpower' people gave up to accumulate hashpoints gave GAW a healthy reserve to protect against a run. The fact that bitcoin has been poorly performing must have people sweating bullets. I am sure the don't want to eat into their fiat reserve from the outside investments... unless they took bitcoin instead.  

To address your last comment, if GAW is not so liquid to have that scenario to occur, then they are playing with fire if it all goes sideways on them. They file for bankruptcy and then all of us who have some sort of investment with them are boned.

[Puppet]

So your saying every company everywhere is a ponzi scheme? That's intelligent. I mean theres no way to  prove a negative. So the whole world is a ponzi scheme. The universe, god, rocks, the color gray, its all one big ponzi scheme.

I'm enlightened, thanks :/

You should indeed assume any financial scheme in the crypto world to be a scam or ponzi if no credible evidence to the contrary  is provided by whoever is promising you profits. One cant prove a negative, but its usually bloody easy to prove a positive, especially when we have public ledgers.
IOW, show me a unicorn and I'll believe, but dont invest based on the promise of one.

[suchmoon]

Interesting comment just showed up. A skeptical person would question the semantics...

GAWCEO Said: Nothing has changed guys, we will value XPY in paybase at $20

https://hashtalk.org/topic/24266/new-coindesk-paycoin-article/29

Here is my theory:

There is no floor, reserve, in fact there are many symptoms that GAW has been cash-dry since October. No payouts to speak of from ZenCloud (even ZenPool is no paying a satoshi, nobody noticing anymore). No $50 million ad campaign. Poorly coded coin clone. New product was "launched" as a couple of screenshots taken from another business from almost a year ago. And now this cowardly way the $20 price is being hyped - you'll be able to "use" it, or they will "value" it, but they won't come out and simply say - we'll BUY it, which is what most are assuming.

They are trying to do what they've somewhat successfully done once with Primes. They managed to lift the "retail" price from $16 all the way to $50 and more, and the "market" price followed to some extent. This is the basis of all those "ROI" success stories, a legend sort of like the 10k BTC pizza. The fact is, nothing else since then among GAW products was profitable. But watch that Paycoin "retail" price on paycoin.com - I think it will start going up, creating the illusion of scarcity/value, and the hope is probably that once POW is over and all non-believers have dumped their coins, "market" price will go up too. Having pre-mined 96% of all coins certainly helps, next step is to entice as many coins as possible to be locked up in staking.

Will this be enough? I certainly don't think so, and the broader market doesn't seem to think so. I would like to say this is a gamble, but the problem is that we don't even know the odds, as you would let's say on PrimeDice. Good luck to all gamblers, you'll need it.

[puwaha]

They don't have to *BUY* any coins.  They already have them!

Why would would you as a builder go buy cheap plywood when you already have enough for the job?  Sure, it's cheap plywood, but all the money you have to buy the cheap plywood is spoken for... to pay the construction guy's salaries for a while.  What are you going to tell your contruction guys... sorry, I spent all your salaries on more cheap plywood?

You're missing the point, people are buying it below $10 to dump it for $20 next week.  Keeping the $5 example, if GAW buys it today it costs $5, if they don't and someone else does they will have to buy the SAME coin for $20 next week.

I'm not missing the point.  You guys are missing the point that GAW doesn't have to buy any coins.  They already have the coins they need to fulfill the HP->XPY conversion.  Please acknowledge that you understand this before moving on.

Buy today: It costs GAW $5 and they can sell it next week for $20

They don't need to sell the coins.  They need all the coins they have now in order to fulfill the HP->XPY conversion (and stake the prime controllers).  If they sell off the cheap coins, they are needlessly wasting their floor money on coins they don't need.

They need the floor money to keep the value at $20 once paybase opens and people can start working with their XPY there.

Don't buy today: someone buys it for $5 and sell it to GAW next week for $20, it costs GAW $20

So people are wondering why they aren't buying right now if there is a $20 floor...

Arbitrage.

[eightcylinders]

I have the wallet downloaded. I have mined coins.  Exactly how do I stake them without going through GAW?  I do not see that functionality in the wallet.  Please explain the process in simple terms, I would love to try it.

You just leave them in your wallet for 30 days and log into your wallet. The coins basically need to stay at a single address for period of time

Okay, so I leave them in my wallet at a single address.  What if I have 1,000 XPY and only want to stake 50 XPY?  Will you need to use coin control each time to ensure that the same wallet addresses are not spent?  Seems really complicated.  In reality then you need two wallets.. one for staked coins and one for spending coins.  Right?

Very user friendly.