|
J4bberwock
|
 |
May 01, 2015, 10:00:57 PM |
|
.....
Really neat, but we still don't know if this is at the wall yet?
It's a chip datasheet. "At wall" depends on many factors. DC/DC converter and PSU efficiency. So, if thats not specified all data covers only chip. up to 25% extra power draw is to be expected at the wall with a gold rated PSU, depending on the design: 10-12% for the PSU, and 10-15% for the power converter that will drop your +12v to 0.6-0.9v When using string design, you'll save almost all the loss from the power converter. That's what you can expect from the "24 chips design" they announced at the same time as the 1 chip design. I still believe that 18-20 chips would be a better choice if they go the string design route. If some of you are interested in kicad footprint and library for the SF3301/GC3328 chip, I finished mine a few minutes ago. I'll double check everything tomorrow and share with those interested.   |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Bitcoin network protocol was designed to be extremely flexible. It can be used to create timed transactions, escrow transactions, multi-signature transactions, etc. The current features of the client only hint at what will be possible in the future.
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TheRealSteve
|
|
May 01, 2015, 10:03:23 PM |
|
Perhaps the whole lot of you could respect OP's thread and keep your feud to the threads that revolve around whatever grievances you have with each other? This isn't the first thread that stuff has spilled over into, but I hope that you could decide to make it the last.
| |  | Speaking of the datasheet...
@sfards: on the next revision, could you make sure that the pin names between the pin list, the ball map and the SV schematic are consistent? Creating a component for a BGA is fun enough without the mismatches 
( example: AVDD_OSC (list/schematic) vs VDDA_OSC (ball map) , ESDSUB_ANA (schematic/ball map) vs unlisted ) |
|
|
|
|
|
pekatete
|
|
May 01, 2015, 10:09:16 PM |
|
@TheRealSteve - take your own advice .... even better, mind your own business.
@J4bberwock - is that just a footprint for the chip (or circuitry too)? How many layers did you get that on?
|
|
|
|
|
J4bberwock
|
|
May 01, 2015, 10:21:49 PM |
|
@J4bberwock - is that just a footprint for the chip (or circuitry too)? How many layers did you get that on?
Just the footprint for now, I'll have a look at 1 or 2 chips board this weekend, and if it works well, maybe a 18-20 chips in string design board I don't expect to have it working in less than 4 layers 2oz. 6 layers may be easier/necessary as I like to have large pwr/gnd planes in my boards. |
|
|
|
|
TheRealSteve
|
|
May 01, 2015, 10:26:06 PM |
|
Just the footprint for now It's a good starting point to build a board off of, though, as it saves the schematic component / PCB package mapping effort - same as with my Eagle part. |
|
|
|
|
pekatete
|
|
May 01, 2015, 10:27:24 PM |
|
@J4bberwock - is that just a footprint for the chip (or circuitry too)? How many layers did you get that on?
Just the footprint for now, I'll have a look at 1 or 2 chips board this weekend, and if it works well, maybe a 18-20 chips in string design board I don't expect to have it working in less than 4 layers 2oz. 6 layers may be easier/necessary as I like to have large pwr/gnd planes in my boards. OK, lets see what the 4th brings forth in terms of dev board et al - never know, if you decide to send off for some 1 or 2 chip breakout PCB's (OSH or similar), I may be interested as 4 layer can be workable cost wise. |
|
|
|
Dexter770221
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
|
|
May 01, 2015, 11:09:51 PM |
|
....
If some of you are interested in kicad footprint and library for the SF3301/GC3328 chip, I finished mine a few minutes ago.
I'll double check everything tomorrow and share with those interested.
What Kicad version are you using? Stable 2013 or newer with library table? |
Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
|
|
|
jstefanop
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2095
Merit: 1396
|
|
May 02, 2015, 04:14:31 AM |
|
So if they are really making a 24 chips machine were looking at these specs
1.7 TH/s
@550W
~650-700 watts at the wall...and thats being conservative.
That is if you go with .6v
If they price this under $500 a pop they'll have a winner.
|
|
|
|
Searing
Copper Member
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1464
Clueless!
|
|
May 02, 2015, 06:01:54 AM |
|
So if they are really making a 24 chips machine were looking at these specs
1.7 TH/s
@550W
~650-700 watts at the wall...and thats being conservative.
That is if you go with .6v
If they price this under $500 a pop they'll have a winner.
What a kick ass miner and on top of that scrypt! I am so down! as much as i like the idea of another home miner an sp20 spondoolies unit (new i think) at 1100w on ebay goes for 400 bucks or so....with my biz and equip deduction on the equipment over 5 years make it 300 usd lets say.....i can't get it to work at that price at 12c kwh etc at least at current btc prices now for large scale water cooled big glacier cooled thermo electric at 2c kwh data farms it may work just dandy anyway by the time they got the unit out the door as a home miner (or even a data hall large rig) could also be too late now again that is assuming the above stats in the ball park (remember I just pipping in here i know nothing...i at one time drank the kool aid and got a 1st batch knc 300mh titan scrypt miner no roi no refund...so take what i say in stride!) |
Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/2021. It also works with Windows 10 and likely 11 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine in Multi-Node! Five Minute Install! Look it over it uninstalls just as fast, if you simply want to look it over. Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:) |
|
|
|
jekecoin
|
|
May 02, 2015, 06:05:04 AM |
|
And now, this post is getting hot until next news |
|
|
|
|
J4bberwock
|
|
May 02, 2015, 07:38:10 AM |
|
....
If some of you are interested in kicad footprint and library for the SF3301/GC3328 chip, I finished mine a few minutes ago.
I'll double check everything tomorrow and share with those interested.
What Kicad version are you using? Stable 2013 or newer with library table? good old stable from 2013. |
|
|
|
|
J4bberwock
|
|
May 02, 2015, 11:18:10 AM |
|
Regarding the Body Bias, it seems I've found my answer in the reference design schematics:
BTC_GNDS_0
BTC_VDDS_0
BTC_GNDS_1
BTC_VDDS_1
must be the bias adjust pins.
Since the higher body bias seems to give the best efficiency, we should use a fixed value.
|
|
|
|
Dexter770221
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
|
|
May 02, 2015, 12:29:37 PM |
|
....
If some of you are interested in kicad footprint and library for the SF3301/GC3328 chip, I finished mine a few minutes ago.
I'll double check everything tomorrow and share with those interested.
What Kicad version are you using? Stable 2013 or newer with library table? good old stable from 2013. Then I may be interested. |
Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
|
|
|
tutorialevideo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1161
Merit: 1001
Don`t invest more than you can afford to lose
|
|
May 02, 2015, 03:47:47 PM |
|
when do you think that they will ship a working miner?
|
|
|
|
|
TheRealSteve
|
|
May 02, 2015, 03:51:47 PM |
|
when do you think that they will ship a working miner?
When do you plan to have units on the market. We are planning to have units for sale during April. Pm'd. So, basically.. Soon™ |
|
|
|
BitcoinPappi
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 915
Merit: 1005
|
|
May 02, 2015, 04:00:30 PM |
|
.....
Really neat, but we still don't know if this is at the wall yet?
It's a chip datasheet. "At wall" depends on many factors. DC/DC converter and PSU efficiency. So, if thats not specified all data covers only chip. up to 25% extra power draw is to be expected at the wall with a gold rated PSU, depending on the design: 10-12% for the PSU, and 10-15% for the power converter that will drop your +12v to 0.6-0.9v When using string design, you'll save almost all the loss from the power converter. That's what you can expect from the "24 chips design" they announced at the same time as the 1 chip design. I still believe that 18-20 chips would be a better choice if they go the string design route. If some of you are interested in kicad footprint and library for the SF3301/GC3328 chip, I finished mine a few minutes ago. I'll double check everything tomorrow and share with those interested. Could you create a Github repo or DropBox folder to share your work ? Do you plan on making your designs available to the community ? |
|
|
|
|
Dexter770221
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
|
|
May 02, 2015, 04:05:25 PM |
|
To SFARDS:
DVDD_OSC Digital VDD. 0.8V-1.10V
DVSS_OSC Digital GND
This two are listed in section 7.2 table. But not present on schematics and ball map.
|
Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
|
|
|
philipma1957
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4116
Merit: 7858
'The right to privacy matters'
|
|
May 02, 2015, 04:08:53 PM |
|
when do you think that they will ship a working miner?
most likely they will. they sprung from gridseed hubs,blades & 5 pack blade. So they did make very good LTC scrypt miners last year. No reason they can not make one of good quality. Still at the same point when and how much. As always time keeps on ticking ticking into the future…. |
|
|
|
notlist3d
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
|
|
May 02, 2015, 09:46:49 PM |
|
when do you think that they will ship a working miner?
most likely they will. they sprung from gridseed hubs,blades & 5 pack blade. So they did make very good LTC scrypt miners last year. No reason they can not make one of good quality. Still at the same point when and how much. As always time keeps on ticking ticking into the future…. They have the money, they have the people and experience. So they should be able to make a working miner. What it ends up being, or what it will be on spec is unknown. It does seem they are not in a hurry, they are taking it slow. Likely focusing on profit not how fast to pump it out. |
|
|
|
|
|
brontosaurus
|
|
May 03, 2015, 08:31:18 AM |
|
Much though I hate to be a party pooper, although it's very nice to see a new mining chip design, especially a dual mode one,
this design is really nothing new, SOI or not. Low w/(Gh/sec) figures can be achieved through simply lowering the clock speed
and/or chip voltage, if you look at the power specs you see that the device in SHA256 mode takes just under 78W at 0.8V at
870Mhz with a hashrate of 139GH/sec. This is it's most efficient point. Why?
At what seems like the lowest W/(Gh/sec), 0.31, the chip is running at 0.6V, 300Mhz and hashes at 48GH/sec. To reach 139GH/sec
performance you'll need to have (almost) 3 devices, each running at 15W. It's more power efficient for sure, but to reach ROI
you'll need to pay a lot more for your hardware. So what's the tradeoff? If you have one machine with, say 16 chips it will take
about 1.6kw at the wall, assuming you use DC to DC converters rather than stringing miners together. The 3 machines with chips
running at 15W will take about 900W, a difference of 0.7kw, or very roughly 500kWh per month. ( A bigger miner with 3 times as
many chips won't save much in build costs)
If your electricity costs 10 cents (US) per month then you save $50 in power, at 20 cents it's $100 and so on. Since the
hashrate of both solutions is identical, the network hashrate and bitcoin exchange rate doesn't come into the equation, so it's
simply a case of power saving per month to see how long it takes to pay for the extra two mining systems.
If each system cost $500 (which is unlikely as you'll see below) then at 10 cents/kWh it will take 20 months for the seemingly
more efficient 3 system solution to break even against the single one, or 10 months at 20 cent/kWh.
For some interesting reading about how chip voltage affects efficiency, see this excellent paper:
web.ece.ucdavis.edu/~anhttran/files/papers/atran_icce10_adder.pdf
It's for a 32 bit adder (which SHA uses as well as single full adders) but it will give you the general idea.
Many thanks to TheRealSteve for pointing out that the die size is actually given in the data sheet on the packaging diagram.
I have to admit that I missed that, my estimate of the size of the chip is 12.5 -13.2 mm on a side, equating to a packaged device
cost (in volumes of 2 million pa) of $11.4. With the actual dies size of 10.5 mm on a side, that price comes down to $9.1, saving
$37 per 16 chip system. That does make a difference.
To build those 16 devices into a system (without a power supply), pay back $1.5 per device as amortised development costs of
$3 million over 2,000,000 units, test and package and pay it's share of Sfard's ongoing running costs will result in
$360 (ish), so expecting it to retail at $500 is unlikely. $550 gives Sfards a 33% margin which is much more realistic, giving a
cost of $0.27/Ghash. Yes, you would also have just under 30Mh/sec of scrypt which changes the picture quite a bit.
Problem with the scrypt side of things is that the die area of this function is about the same as the SHA256 one, eDRAM takes
up a fair amount of space. Is it worth it? According to the datasheet, in dual mining mode the device will run at 100 Gh/sec (SHA)
and 1.75 MH/sec (Scrypt), so for the 16 chip system:
28Mh/sec will earn about $29 per month before electricity costs, about 50kWh / $5 at 10 cents/kWh, so earning $24/month net
1.6 GH/sec will earn $95 per month (BTC = $220/ Hashrate 370 PH) before electricity, 810kWh / $81 at 10 cents/kWh, earning $22/month net
The total payback of $22+$24 = $46 will pay back the cost of a single machine in 12 months IF the network hash rate stays under 400PH.
Even if you got the miner at cost, it would still take 8 months to pay for itself, never mind making any money. That's also assuming the network hashrate stays under 400PH which I think most would agree is extremely unlikely.
HOWEVER, if you get your electricity at 4 cents/kWH then the net monthly revenue is $74 per month, and if you bought these hypothetical machines in volume (100+) then you might get them at $450 - then you would get payback in 6 months. Before some forum 'expert' (you know who you are) tells you that in Iceland power costs 2 cents/kWh, you'll only get that rate if you buy 100GWh per annum quantities, and you still have to house your miners and pay someone to look after them. 4 cents is much more realistic.
Oh, and don't forget that 2,000,000 of these chips would add 200PH to the Bitcoin network and 3,5 TH to the Litecoin one .........
|
|
|
|
|
|
