[ANN] Sfards:SF100, the first 28nm Dual-Mode Miner is accepting pre-order now

[philipma1957]

I think I am being an optimist here but I don't see Sfards making the price double the S5 like Doggie suggest, I think were talking 500$ maybe 600$ max but no way am I see 700$+ on this machine, it seems good but not that good. I think Doggie is a bit biased working for bitmain that this could be a large competitor for them if it is priced correctly.

Sorry Doggie.

Here is how I look at pricing.  Bitmaintech crushed sp-tech on price when the sp20 came out.

Sfards even if China based and has 0 relationship with bitmaintech knows they can't come out with a low price. Since this bitmaintech can crush them in a price war.

At current coin prices and diff this machine will break even at 120 to 180 days. if sold at 900 usd.

So in order not to price war with bitmaintech and to be able to come back with a price drop. they will start close to 900.

the s-5
clears 0.04 usd a day at 19 cents a kwatt
clears 0.62 usd a day at 15 cents a kwatt
clears 1.34 usd a day at 10 cents a kwatt
clears 2.10 usd a day at  5 cents  a kwatt

the sfards is  a lot better if the specs are true.



if your power is 20 cents you spend 4.80 usd to run it.  that is 9-4.80 = 4.20 usd profit
if your power is 15 cents you spend 3.60 usd to run it.  that is 9-3.60 = 5.40 usd profit
if your power is 10 cents  you spend 2.40 usd to run it. that is 9-2.40 = 6.60 usd profit
if your power is  5 cents  you spend  1.20 usd to run it. that is 9-1.20 = 7.80 usd profit

[jadefalke]

I really dont understand why people trash talk on phil review. Phil is a well know reviewer that do it perfectly.
Doesnt matter if he sell gear after. He didnt beg he propose his help to make a review.

I will not buy any miner without review.

MOQ of 100. ahahah without any review. Well good luck on that.

Again nice centralisation of the mining.

Really sad about how this is going.

Centralisation of mining? What are you on about, this isn't Bitmain or any of the big dogs. This is actually a new company from a merger that happened, I don't get your point.

the Point is, that they only want to sell in batches of 100 Unit's. That lead into a Situation where only Big Mining Farms will buy that Miner.

[philipma1957]

I really dont understand why people trash talk on phil review. Phil is a well know reviewer that do it perfectly.
Doesnt matter if he sell gear after. He didnt beg he propose his help to make a review.

I will not buy any miner without review.

MOQ of 100. ahahah without any review. Well good luck on that.

Again nice centralisation of the mining.

Really sad about how this is going.

Centralisation of mining? What are you on about, this isn't Bitmain or any of the big dogs. This is actually a new company from a merger that happened, I don't get your point.

the Point is, that they only want to sell in batches of 100 Unit's. That lead into a Situation where only Big Mining Farms will buy that Miner.

well a  few group buys can be done.

1 in the usa
1 in europe
1 in asia

I would imagine  people would buy this from OgNasty and a few other group buy people.
I would consider getting one from Lee that guy has done a lot of good hosting in China. I have owned a few of his items.

[Biomech]

I really dont understand why people trash talk on phil review. Phil is a well know reviewer that do it perfectly.
Doesnt matter if he sell gear after. He didnt beg he propose his help to make a review.

I will not buy any miner without review.

MOQ of 100. ahahah without any review. Well good luck on that.

Again nice centralisation of the mining.

Really sad about how this is going.

Centralisation of mining? What are you on about, this isn't Bitmain or any of the big dogs. This is actually a new company from a merger that happened, I don't get your point.

the Point is, that they only want to sell in batches of 100 Unit's. That lead into a Situation where only Big Mining Farms will buy that Miner.

Actually pretty normal practice for a manufacturer. They'll want to get it distributed via resellers and VAR's, so they don't have to deal directly with the end user. Whether such a model will work in the digital currency world remains to be seen, but I don't see it as centralization. I'd be looking to the retailers very soon.

[MCHouston]

I really dont understand why people trash talk on phil review. Phil is a well know reviewer that do it perfectly.
Doesnt matter if he sell gear after. He didnt beg he propose his help to make a review.

I will not buy any miner without review.

MOQ of 100. ahahah without any review. Well good luck on that.

Again nice centralisation of the mining.

Really sad about how this is going.

Centralisation of mining? What are you on about, this isn't Bitmain or any of the big dogs. This is actually a new company from a merger that happened, I don't get your point.

the Point is, that they only want to sell in batches of 100 Unit's. That lead into a Situation where only Big Mining Farms will buy that Miner.

Actually pretty normal practice for a manufacturer. They'll want to get it distributed via resellers and VAR's, so they don't have to deal directly with the end user. Whether such a model will work in the digital currency world remains to be seen, but I don't see it as centralization. I'd be looking to the retailers very soon.

I do not see how MOQ of 100 is centralization. This is still in the realm of getting several home miners together from your order and sharing an order.

The big guys will be ordering MOQ of 1000 or more, they buy by the petahash.

Yes I do wish it was a bit lower but MOQ of 100 is not that bad for a first batch limited run, their just saving the money on the logistic piece of the business till they get geared up.

[Marvell1]

It all depends on price really I guess we will see what they land at

[jadefalke]

I really dont understand why people trash talk on phil review. Phil is a well know reviewer that do it perfectly.
Doesnt matter if he sell gear after. He didnt beg he propose his help to make a review.

I will not buy any miner without review.

MOQ of 100. ahahah without any review. Well good luck on that.

Again nice centralisation of the mining.

Really sad about how this is going.

Centralisation of mining? What are you on about, this isn't Bitmain or any of the big dogs. This is actually a new company from a merger that happened, I don't get your point.

the Point is, that they only want to sell in batches of 100 Unit's. That lead into a Situation where only Big Mining Farms will buy that Miner.

Actually pretty normal practice for a manufacturer. They'll want to get it distributed via resellers and VAR's, so they don't have to deal directly with the end user. Whether such a model will work in the digital currency world remains to be seen, but I don't see it as centralization. I'd be looking to the retailers very soon.

i would 100% Agree with you in a normal Market, but we don't have Structure of VAR in Cryto at all. (or very, very limited)

i could not name 5 VAR in Europe who retail Bitcoin/Scrypt Miner.

[OgNasty]

I would imagine  people would buy this from OgNasty and a few other group buy people.

The fact I was receiving PMs asking me to run a group buy for these is the only reason I threw my hat in the ring.  I've received messages from half a dozen people probably wanting to order 30 units already and I haven't even agreed to run the group buy yet (please don't message me about this, I haven't gotten any communication yet from Sfards).  Just to clarify my position, I would only run a group buy if Sfards asks me to do it.  I have no intention of running a rogue group buy and hoping that it all goes smoothly. 

[toptek]

But I have no need to review one others can do good reviews.

OgNasty doe review and gb. Simples.

Dogie do no two review.

no knock on OgNasty or dogie  , but I would like to see sfards words not a newbie's

And like I said I don't need to review this, I offered to review it. In fact I would offer to review it and mail it back to sfards rep here in the USA.


Which means zero financial gain on my part and I would lose the postage mailing it back to  sfards rep in the usa.

That makes me about as neutral as you will get in the world of BTC-LTC.

And I made this offer months ago.  Go back and find the post.  And I was attacked and insulted back then by a newbie.  Which prompted me to withdraw the offer.

I find it interesting that as soon as I mention reviewing this gear newbies turn up to attack me.  

Why?  

Simples you beg and beg.  If wes need help with rental wes ask you....  Now you offer to mail back.... so you does not want to pays for unit?

Og and Dogie both no beg.  You needy.

I know I'm a bit late to the fight here, and I usually don't bother with obvious trolls. But...
You're full of shit.

Philip has been an asset to miners in general for a LONG time. Not only that, he will help out a newbie without making them feel like an idiot. nearly a year ago, when I was making stupid mistakes with my gridseed, he very kindly helped me out via PM for no return. Just because he was cool. He and I are nothing to each other. Not friends or enemies, just miners on the same forum. Don't besmirch the reputation of a man who has earned a good one.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what drugs you trolls take...

I Agree Philip is very cool they should send him one if just him  nothing personal. dogie .



These might be why no s2 upgrades or not much being said from bitmain ,I bet bitmain has something coming that gonna top this for btc. i wish they had come thu with the L1 . .

[philipma1957]

But I have no need to review one others can do good reviews.

OgNasty doe review and gb. Simples.

Dogie do no two review.

no knock on OgNasty or dogie  , but I would like to see sfards words not a newbie's

And like I said I don't need to review this, I offered to review it. In fact I would offer to review it and mail it back to sfards rep here in the USA.


Which means zero financial gain on my part and I would lose the postage mailing it back to  sfards rep in the usa.

That makes me about as neutral as you will get in the world of BTC-LTC.

And I made this offer months ago.  Go back and find the post.  And I was attacked and insulted back then by a newbie.  Which prompted me to withdraw the offer.

I find it interesting that as soon as I mention reviewing this gear newbies turn up to attack me.  

Why?  

Simples you beg and beg.  If wes need help with rental wes ask you....  Now you offer to mail back.... so you does not want to pays for unit?

Og and Dogie both no beg.  You needy.

I know I'm a bit late to the fight here, and I usually don't bother with obvious trolls. But...
You're full of shit.

Philip has been an asset to miners in general for a LONG time. Not only that, he will help out a newbie without making them feel like an idiot. nearly a year ago, when I was making stupid mistakes with my gridseed, he very kindly helped me out via PM for no return. Just because he was cool. He and I are nothing to each other. Not friends or enemies, just miners on the same forum. Don't besmirch the reputation of a man who has earned a good one.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what drugs you trolls take...

I Agree Philip is very cool they should send him one if just him  nothing personal. dogie .



These might be why no s2 upgrades or not much being said from bitmain ,I bet bitmain has something coming that gonna top this for btc. i wish they had come thu with the L1 . .

I think bitmaintech will wait for the sfards gear to drop and then underprice them just like they  did to sp-tech.

[philipma1957]

But I have no need to review one others can do good reviews.

OgNasty doe review and gb. Simples.

Dogie do no two review.

no knock on OgNasty or dogie  , but I would like to see sfards words not a newbie's

And like I said I don't need to review this, I offered to review it. In fact I would offer to review it and mail it back to sfards rep here in the USA.


Which means zero financial gain on my part and I would lose the postage mailing it back to  sfards rep in the usa.

That makes me about as neutral as you will get in the world of BTC-LTC.

And I made this offer months ago.  Go back and find the post.  And I was attacked and insulted back then by a newbie.  Which prompted me to withdraw the offer.

I find it interesting that as soon as I mention reviewing this gear newbies turn up to attack me.  

Why?  

Simples you beg and beg.  If wes need help with rental wes ask you....  Now you offer to mail back.... so you does not want to pays for unit?

Og and Dogie both no beg.  You needy.

I know I'm a bit late to the fight here, and I usually don't bother with obvious trolls. But...
You're full of shit.

Philip has been an asset to miners in general for a LONG time. Not only that, he will help out a newbie without making them feel like an idiot. nearly a year ago, when I was making stupid mistakes with my gridseed, he very kindly helped me out via PM for no return. Just because he was cool. He and I are nothing to each other. Not friends or enemies, just miners on the same forum. Don't besmirch the reputation of a man who has earned a good one.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what drugs you trolls take...

I Agree Philip is very cool they should send him one if just him  nothing personal. dogie .



These might be why no s2 upgrades or not much being said from bitmain ,I bet bitmain has something coming that gonna top this for btc. i wish they had come thu with the L1 . .

I think bitmaintech will wait for the sfards gear to drop and then underprice them just like they  did to sp-tech.

Do you think Sfards is the company Bitmain is concerned about or do you think it is KNC, Spondoolies or Bitfury. They have literally said before they've delayed their production of a new miner when they found out their competitor was having trouble on their wafers.

I think there is an economics to new gear that a lot of people do not take into account.

s-3's at 3-4 cents make money
s-5's at 9-10 cents make money.

If you are a builder that self mines and sells growth is not always good.

 the current need for bitmaintech to sell gear or grow does not exsist.  As they profit from mining and cloud mining. as long as price is around 230 usd and diff is under 60 bill.
this is true of knc and bitfury and spondoolies.

common sense move for them was replace gear with more efficient gear but keep hashrate the same . thus lower power costs.

anyone that reads my diff threads knows this has been the case for months.

So along comes sfards  new player new hash.

So lets say it is better then anyone else's that we know of, lets say they drop gear on the market in bulk at a good price.

The s-6 and the s-7 will come out in a snap.  Forget knc,bitfury,sp-tech.  they are all self mine.  forget avalon they are staying small and self mine.

So in a few weeks two sellers sfards and bitmaintech. I can be pretty sure bitmaintech has plenty of s-6's and or s-7's ready willing and able to mine.
they have slowly swapped them into production keeping hash rate the same and making more via lower power bills.

I really think this is the case.  I think sfards will price high and bitmaintech may not do a counter move.

That is what avalon did with the 4.1 sold it at a high price so that no price war happened with bitmaintech.

But all guesses here 0 proof just looking at patterns and the like.

[Finksy]

Given the low cost of electricity in operations of scale, and the high capital cost of infrastructure, labour, etc, if they had more efficient hardware being phased in but purposely left some of their power capacity un-used, logic would dictate that would be leaving money on the table.  Lost revenue due to increases in difficulty by adding new hashrate to the network by maximizing existing infrastructure has got to be significantly less than the amount lost due to new, efficient miners sitting around un-powered.

[philipma1957]

Given the low cost of electricity in operations of scale, and the high capital cost of infrastructure, labour, etc, if they had more efficient hardware being phased in but purposely left some of their power capacity un-used, logic would dictate that would be leaving money on the table.  Lost revenue due to increases in difficulty by adding new hashrate to the network by maximizing existing infrastructure has got to be significantly less than the amount lost due to new, efficient miners sitting around un-powered.

no it is not.  because growing network hash rate is pointless without price rising.

If I have 20 ph in s-5's = 10.4 megawatts

if I have 21ph in s-7's = say 7 megawatts.   I save 3.4 megawatts in power cost. network looks the same in diff. tiny limit to growth

these charts show it has happened this way since Jan 12.  2015  tiny growth ,but replace your farm with better gear.
 offer the older gear at a high price s-5's at 400 usd avalon 4.1's at 550 usd

Difficulty History

Date   Difficulty   Change   Hash Rate
Jun 14 2015   49,692,386,355   4.42%   355,711,957 GH/s
May 31 2015   47,589,591,154   -2.50%   340,659,563 GH/s
May 17 2015   48,807,487,245   2.44%   349,377,603 GH/s
May 03 2015   47,643,398,018   0.07%   341,044,727 GH/s
Apr 19 2015   47,610,564,513   -3.71%   340,809,696 GH/s
Apr 05 2015   49,446,390,688   5.84%   353,951,052 GH/s
Mar 22 2015   46,717,549,645   -1.50%   334,417,246 GH/s
Mar 08 2015   47,427,554,951   1.59%   339,499,662 GH/s
Feb 22 2015   46,684,376,317   5.01%   334,179,783 GH/s
Feb 09 2015   44,455,415,962   7.71%   318,224,263 GH/s
Jan 27 2015   41,272,873,895   -6.14%   295,442,739 GH/s
Jan 12 2015   43,971,662,056   8.20%   314,761,417 GH/s



trend was not as strong below as only a few big players began to understand this strategy .



Dec 30 2014   40,640,955,017   3.00%   290,919,288 GH/s
Dec 17 2014   39,457,671,307   -1.37%   282,449,013 GH/s
Dec 02 2014   40,007,470,271   -0.73%   286,384,627 GH/s
Nov 18 2014   40,300,030,328   1.76%   288,478,854 GH/s
Nov 05 2014   39,603,666,252   10.05%   283,494,086 GH/s
Oct 23 2014   35,985,640,265   2.81%   257,595,247 GH/s
Oct 09 2014   35,002,482,026   0.98%   250,557,526 GH/s




Now sfards has a  few  choices

1)fuck this  I am selling tons of gear  to anyone and everyone-  thus price wars and big diff jumps which would pissoff big players.
2)or go small make some 100 piece private sales. don't sell many on site kind of what avalon did with the 4.1
3) do something else and surprise us.

[dmwardjr]

Just heard back from SFards. Doesn't look like they are doing any demo or evaluation units at this time, unfortunately. They are doing MOQ 100 for the initial sales run due to limited quantity, and have not yet established shipping date or price.

Maybe this has already been addressed...  I have yet to get as far as your post at the moment, Xian01.

I expect these rigs to be no less than $500.00 USD each [including shipping].  That would be $50,000 minimum someone would have to invest on rigs they are not certain will achieve what is advertised.  Then they would have to possibly purchase PSU's and PCI-e cords if they do not have them already.  I would be pissed off if I'm told a wattage at a certain hash rate, only to find out the hash rate and power per watts was off by 20% to the negative for us (not as efficient and not as fast as advertised).

I want to believe in SFards and have confidence in them.  The best way to begin "trust" is with demo units to hero or legendary members in my opinion.  I have no experience with their warranty and customer support.  The list goes on...

They are asking buyers to have a lot of faith in them.  Especially, buyers who have no experience with them.  I'm not saying these things to be negative about SFards by no means!!!!!!  I'm simply trying to help SFards understand our point of view.

[pekatete]

no it is not.  because growing network hash rate is pointless without price rising.

If I have 20 ph in s-5's = 10.4 megawatts

if I have 21ph in s-7's = say 7 megawatts.   I save 3.4 megawatts in power cost. network looks the same in diff. tiny limit to growth

The flaw in that argument is that the replaced gear is scrapped and not sold on (else it'd re-appear in network hash). In your example, why would bitmain toss away perfectly re-saleable S5's (they actually recently upped the price!)?

[philipma1957]

Given the low cost of electricity in operations of scale, and the high capital cost of infrastructure, labour, etc, if they had more efficient hardware being phased in but purposely left some of their power capacity un-used, logic would dictate that would be leaving money on the table.  Lost revenue due to increases in difficulty by adding new hashrate to the network by maximizing existing infrastructure has got to be significantly less than the amount lost due to new, efficient miners sitting around un-powered.

your methodology was rock solid when coins were sky high in price, also the ½ ing is coming another risk for them.To me sfards  has some interesting problems.
  I think they are going to attempt to go fly on the wall rather then  bull in a china shop. It worked well for avalon with the 4.1 they made money and  were not attacked by bitmaintech.

[Finksy]

your methodology was rock solid when coins were sky high in price, also the ½ ing is coming another risk for them.To me sfards  has some interesting problems.
  I think they are going to attempt to go fly on the wall rather then  bull in a china shop. It worked well for avalon with the 4.1 they made money and  were not attacked by bitmaintech.

Phillip, your argument is that they are financially better off by freeing up power by using more efficient hardware without replacing it, and you are trying to use the recent difficulty to prove that point, it's pure speculation.  What I'm saying is the amount they would be saving is not proportional to A) the amount they could be making by making use of all their infrastructure, and B) the fixed costs that are offset by higher revenue (rent, maintenance, security, etc).  The price of coins is somewhat irrelevent, if they are turning a profit on using say 70% of their current power available, they are most certainly going to turn a profit using 100% of their available power, regardless of the effect that would have on difficulty.

Remember, they aren't paying the same $.10/KwH that we pay, the time and man-power required to maintain a 20 TH farm is very different than a multi PH farm, and they aren't hosting their miners for free in their basement.  The logic from your own situation isn't scalable to one of their farms, it's apples and oranges.

"no it is not.  because growing network hash rate is pointless without price rising."  Growing network hash rate is un-avoidable without collusion between manufacturers.  If they're not contributing new hash rate to the network then they are losing that portion of their existing market share. The difficulty will continue to grow, and there is nothing Bitmain can do about that.

"It worked well for avalon with the 4.1 they made money and  were not attacked by bitmaintech."  Sorry Phillip, but a failed sales model and late release is the reason Bitmain didn't need to bat an eye at Avalon, they knew nobody was going to waste their time or money on it.  If releasing over-priced, under-performing hardware was a successful sales strategy, we'd have a lot more successful bitcoin hardware manufacturers, lol.


Sfards, sorry for derailing your thread, I'll leave it at that.  This is what happens when you leave us to speculate!

[quakefiend420]

But I have no need to review one others can do good reviews.

OgNasty doe review and gb. Simples.

Dogie do no two review.

no knock on OgNasty or dogie  , but I would like to see sfards words not a newbie's

And like I said I don't need to review this, I offered to review it. In fact I would offer to review it and mail it back to sfards rep here in the USA.


Which means zero financial gain on my part and I would lose the postage mailing it back to  sfards rep in the usa.

That makes me about as neutral as you will get in the world of BTC-LTC.

And I made this offer months ago.  Go back and find the post.  And I was attacked and insulted back then by a newbie.  Which prompted me to withdraw the offer.

I find it interesting that as soon as I mention reviewing this gear newbies turn up to attack me.  

Why?  

Simples you beg and beg.  If wes need help with rental wes ask you....  Now you offer to mail back.... so you does not want to pays for unit?

Og and Dogie both no beg.  You needy.

I know I'm a bit late to the fight here, and I usually don't bother with obvious trolls. But...
You're full of shit.

Philip has been an asset to miners in general for a LONG time. Not only that, he will help out a newbie without making them feel like an idiot. nearly a year ago, when I was making stupid mistakes with my gridseed, he very kindly helped me out via PM for no return. Just because he was cool. He and I are nothing to each other. Not friends or enemies, just miners on the same forum. Don't besmirch the reputation of a man who has earned a good one.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what drugs you trolls take...

I Agree Philip is very cool they should send him one if just him  nothing personal. dogie .



These might be why no s2 upgrades or not much being said from bitmain ,I bet bitmain has something coming that gonna top this for btc. i wish they had come thu with the L1 . .

I think bitmaintech will wait for the sfards gear to drop and then underprice them just like they  did to sp-tech.

Do you think Sfards is the company Bitmain is concerned about or do you think it is KNC, Spondoolies or Bitfury. They have literally said before they've delayed their production of a new miner when they found out their competitor was having trouble on their wafers.

Pretty sure that was Bitfury.

[philipma1957]

your methodology was rock solid when coins were sky high in price, also the ½ ing is coming another risk for them.To me sfards  has some interesting problems.
  I think they are going to attempt to go fly on the wall rather then  bull in a china shop. It worked well for avalon with the 4.1 they made money and  were not attacked by bitmaintech.

Phillip, your argument is that they are financially better off by freeing up power by using more efficient hardware without replacing it, and you are trying to use the recent difficulty to prove that point, it's pure speculation.  What I'm saying is the amount they would be saving is not proportional to A) the amount they could be making by making use of all their infrastructure, and B) the fixed costs that are offset by higher revenue (rent, maintenance, security, etc).  The price of coins is somewhat irrelevent, if they are turning a profit on using say 70% of their current power available, they are most certainly going to turn a profit using 100% of their available power, regardless of the effect that would have on difficulty.

Remember, they aren't paying the same $.10/KwH that we pay, the time and man-power required to maintain a 20 TH farm is very different than a multi PH farm, and they aren't hosting their miners for free in their basement.  The logic from your own situation isn't scalable to one of their farms, it's apples and oranges.

"no it is not.  because growing network hash rate is pointless without price rising."  Growing network hash rate is un-avoidable without collusion between manufacturers.  If they're not contributing new hash rate to the network then they are losing that portion of their existing market share. The difficulty will continue to grow, and there is nothing Bitmain can do about that.

"It worked well for avalon with the 4.1 they made money and  were not attacked by bitmaintech."  Sorry Phillip, but a failed sales model and late release is the reason Bitmain didn't need to bat an eye at Avalon, they knew nobody was going to waste their time or money on it.  If releasing over-priced, under-performing hardware was a successful sales strategy, we'd have a lot more successful bitcoin hardware manufacturers, lol.


Sfards, sorry for derailing your thread, I'll leave it at that.  This is what happens when you leave us to speculate!

well I don't consider the thread derailed since we are waiting for a price for these units we are talking why sfards would sell at 10x vs 9x or 11x.

As for current asic builders in collusion or price either way diff is steady since late fall.   . Most likely I am failing to explain my assumption correctly.

4  or 5 big guys      KNC, Bitmaintech, Bitfury, Sp-Tech, 21 ?    1 little Guy avalon.     They all self mine , bitmaintech and avalon sell to small guys.

None of them need rock the boat by growing hash rate rapidly very slow growth- and slow replacing of gear with power saving gear works better for them then rapid growth.   All due to the current price of coins .  None of them need to say what I am saying behind closed doors or do collusion to do exactly what they are doing.  But is is really simple that they are doing it since the hard cold facts are there in price charts and diff charts.

   Now the op of the thread has a nice new piece in the game.  I am not imaging it it is happening as I type.  So I am waiting to see how the bigger guys play this out.  Remember 'the ½ ing' is coming in under a year.
It is quite an exciting time  as I feel a shake up is about to happen.

All of this is apparent to sfards they are not stupid. So I like watching for  the next move. 

[Wesly]

I expect these rigs to be no less than $500.00 USD each [including shipping].  That would be $50,000 minimum ...

You didn't hear from me, but try tripling the price - $1500 USD...