If pirate ends up running not a Ponzi but instead does what he says: selling BTC at high premium, Bitcoin could be taken for a nice ride within next few years.
All Ponzi speculation aside, we know this theory has a merit and high probability it may be one. Are there any other plausible explanations to pirate's operation with such great returns?
At first I couldn't imagine who would want to buy bitcoins at high premium and why. do you know?! Besides drug cartels, money laundry and some three letter agency questionable special covert ops funding?
What if there are smart and wealthy individuals who realized great potential of Bitcoin and decided to get in. Their target may be significant amount of bitcoins without driving exchange rate through the roof and they are ready to invest several million dollars. Although they could have gone through exchanges and probably buy bitcoins even at $10-20/BTC wouldn't it make sense to setup bitcoin lending operation and purchase at 10-15% premium all sub $10 bitcoins - given that they don't want to spend significant amounts of time on exchanges to acquire bitcoins at slow steady pace. They want to sign a check each week and get their bitcoins. Here comes the pirate and ready to sell at 10-15% premium. Pirate alone or conspiring with these individuals to keep bitcoin rate as sane prices (sub $10/BTC for instance) throughout their acquisition period. Bitcoin prices at $4-7 seem fair and pretty stable. Sub $4-3 prices - and everyone wants in so the rate isn't stable; over $8 and there is a risk of another bitcoin hype and explosion which could potentially get out of their control.
Once these individuals hit their target and complete acquisition they will start telling about Bitcoin to all their other wealthy buddies or simply start a new hype, or they don't even have to do anything if they have managed to acquire all available sub $10 bitcoins and the price will naturally start to rise (through the roof) to mid double or maybe even up to triple digits.
$5-6/BTC + 10-15% better than over $10 BTC when purchasing, is it not?
Could this possibly work while providing great interest rates to lenders at the same time manipulating exchanges with great psychological walls to keep bitcoin prices as low rates for time being? Or it doesn't make any sense? What do you guys think?
The above explanation makes ZERO sense. Here's why: If such a group held USD and wanted to buy BTC and they went through pirate buying the BTC he borrowed, where the hell does he then get the BTC to pay back his "investors" once he sells the borrowed BTC to that group?? If he takes their USD and goes to the exchanges, well how is this going to be any different of an effect on the price of BTC than if the group went directly passed him? Oh boy!!! Someone is stepping close to treasure. ATTACK!!!!!
And the fact that he pretends you're close when in fact your explanation makes zero sense is a huge red flag. This is a good and valid question. I would imagine pirate has large BTC and USD holdings present on exchanges himself or with a side deal with his clients/investors which gives them ability to "manipulate" the exchanges to keep exchange rates at fair, stable (target) levels, as we have seen this occur plenty of times in the past with great walls on both sides. Without ability to keep exchange rate in sane levels my theory indeed would not make any sense. I just put 1 + 1 together: market manipulation and high interest returns on borrowed bitcoins. I don't understand, surely he must have lost a lot in the last 30 days then since the price is up about 30% and in a span of just 4 days jumped nearly 20%? Did his "investors" experience any loses recently? They should have if you are right.. As I've mentioned in my first post in this thread, I think his comfort zone is $5-7/BTC and while moving the rate steady up and down in this $5-7 range within months he and his clients additionally are able to profit on exchange rates while keep on their Bitcoin acquisition schedule. It would be crazy to think that pirate is exposed on USD side for more than 10-24hrs. on borrowed bitcoins, given that he has available reserves (personal or not) on exchanges. I also suspect he has neat bots working for him on exchanges catching all the dips and doing arbitrage and profiting on short term spreads. Basically, in my opinion pirate has largest presence on exchanges and most of his competition now is invested in his Bitcoin Savings & Trust and through various pass throughs, leaving him sole market maker and mover =) this part is a wild speculation though  Occam's razor.. |
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What exactly is this thread for then, with the new thread for announcements, etc?
Check out the second line on the OP. And how is humanitee's post not "general discussion"? He didn't make any claims what you do, he just voiced his opinion and stated the reason for withdrawing.. What could possibly be more general than that? |
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FUD
Please post your FUD on one of the other threads. This thread is not for debating what I do. Wow that's quite an emotional response?? Surely a legitimate business can handle clients discontinuing their participation and voicing their opinion why they made that decision, right? |
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If pirate ends up running not a Ponzi but instead does what he says: selling BTC at high premium, Bitcoin could be taken for a nice ride within next few years.
All Ponzi speculation aside, we know this theory has a merit and high probability it may be one. Are there any other plausible explanations to pirate's operation with such great returns?
At first I couldn't imagine who would want to buy bitcoins at high premium and why. do you know?! Besides drug cartels, money laundry and some three letter agency questionable special covert ops funding?
What if there are smart and wealthy individuals who realized great potential of Bitcoin and decided to get in. Their target may be significant amount of bitcoins without driving exchange rate through the roof and they are ready to invest several million dollars. Although they could have gone through exchanges and probably buy bitcoins even at $10-20/BTC wouldn't it make sense to setup bitcoin lending operation and purchase at 10-15% premium all sub $10 bitcoins - given that they don't want to spend significant amounts of time on exchanges to acquire bitcoins at slow steady pace. They want to sign a check each week and get their bitcoins. Here comes the pirate and ready to sell at 10-15% premium. Pirate alone or conspiring with these individuals to keep bitcoin rate as sane prices (sub $10/BTC for instance) throughout their acquisition period. Bitcoin prices at $4-7 seem fair and pretty stable. Sub $4-3 prices - and everyone wants in so the rate isn't stable; over $8 and there is a risk of another bitcoin hype and explosion which could potentially get out of their control.
Once these individuals hit their target and complete acquisition they will start telling about Bitcoin to all their other wealthy buddies or simply start a new hype, or they don't even have to do anything if they have managed to acquire all available sub $10 bitcoins and the price will naturally start to rise (through the roof) to mid double or maybe even up to triple digits.
$5-6/BTC + 10-15% better than over $10 BTC when purchasing, is it not?
Could this possibly work while providing great interest rates to lenders at the same time manipulating exchanges with great psychological walls to keep bitcoin prices as low rates for time being? Or it doesn't make any sense? What do you guys think?
The above explanation makes ZERO sense. Here's why: If such a group held USD and wanted to buy BTC and they went through pirate buying the BTC he borrowed, where the hell does he then get the BTC to pay back his "investors" once he sells the borrowed BTC to that group?? If he takes their USD and goes to the exchanges, well how is this going to be any different of an effect on the price of BTC than if the group went directly passed him? Oh boy!!! Someone is stepping close to treasure. ATTACK!!!!!
And the fact that he pretends you're close when in fact your explanation makes zero sense is a huge red flag. This is a good and valid question. I would imagine pirate has large BTC and USD holdings present on exchanges himself or with a side deal with his clients/investors which gives them ability to "manipulate" the exchanges to keep exchange rates at fair, stable (target) levels, as we have seen this occur plenty of times in the past with great walls on both sides. Without ability to keep exchange rate in sane levels my theory indeed would not make any sense. I just put 1 + 1 together: market manipulation and high interest returns on borrowed bitcoins. I don't understand, surely he must have lost a lot in the last 30 days then since the price is up about 30% and in a span of just 4 days jumped nearly 20%? Did his "investors" experience any loses recently? They should have if you are right.. |
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where the hell does he then get the BTC to pay back his "investors" once he sells the borrowed BTC to that group??
Maybe he just borrows it Wait... Bingo. Hence the ponzi allegations. |
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If pirate ends up running not a Ponzi but instead does what he says: selling BTC at high premium, Bitcoin could be taken for a nice ride within next few years.
All Ponzi speculation aside, we know this theory has a merit and high probability it may be one. Are there any other plausible explanations to pirate's operation with such great returns?
At first I couldn't imagine who would want to buy bitcoins at high premium and why. do you know?! Besides drug cartels, money laundry and some three letter agency questionable special covert ops funding?
What if there are smart and wealthy individuals who realized great potential of Bitcoin and decided to get in. Their target may be significant amount of bitcoins without driving exchange rate through the roof and they are ready to invest several million dollars. Although they could have gone through exchanges and probably buy bitcoins even at $10-20/BTC wouldn't it make sense to setup bitcoin lending operation and purchase at 10-15% premium all sub $10 bitcoins - given that they don't want to spend significant amounts of time on exchanges to acquire bitcoins at slow steady pace. They want to sign a check each week and get their bitcoins. Here comes the pirate and ready to sell at 10-15% premium. Pirate alone or conspiring with these individuals to keep bitcoin rate as sane prices (sub $10/BTC for instance) throughout their acquisition period. Bitcoin prices at $4-7 seem fair and pretty stable. Sub $4-3 prices - and everyone wants in so the rate isn't stable; over $8 and there is a risk of another bitcoin hype and explosion which could potentially get out of their control.
Once these individuals hit their target and complete acquisition they will start telling about Bitcoin to all their other wealthy buddies or simply start a new hype, or they don't even have to do anything if they have managed to acquire all available sub $10 bitcoins and the price will naturally start to rise (through the roof) to mid double or maybe even up to triple digits.
$5-6/BTC + 10-15% better than over $10 BTC when purchasing, is it not?
Could this possibly work while providing great interest rates to lenders at the same time manipulating exchanges with great psychological walls to keep bitcoin prices as low rates for time being? Or it doesn't make any sense? What do you guys think?
The above explanation makes ZERO sense. Here's why: If such a group held USD and wanted to buy BTC and they went through pirate buying the BTC he borrowed, where the hell does he then get the BTC to pay back his "investors" once he sells the borrowed BTC to that group?? If he takes their USD and goes to the exchanges, well how is this going to be any different of an effect on the price of BTC than if the group went directly passed him? Oh boy!!! Someone is stepping close to treasure. ATTACK!!!!!
And the fact that he pretends you're close when in fact your explanation makes zero sense is a huge red flag. |
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Bitcoin is not fiat yet. That doesn't mean it won't be at some point nor does it mean I don't believe in it. There's simply no reason at this time for me to risk market movements with my converted fiat > bitcoin Riiiight ok, that's a valid reason.. Except there's one tiny little problem with your story: Your clients haven't had any loses yet even though the price rose which should have meant that you couldn't have possibly bought back all the bitcoins people "invested" with you that you initially, as you claim, converted to fiat. How is this possible? How are you able to meet your obligations even though the risk event for which you insured yourself against by using other people's bitcoins clearly happened? Do you really think someone that manages as many coins as I do, doesn't have an influence on market movements? What I do with the coins is my business and my lenders are well aware of the risks associated with entrusting someone with them. If anyone has a reason to not trust me with their coins they're more than welcome to withdraw them. I'm done discussing the same stuff over and over, if someone has something new to add fine but until then... I be havin' t' get aft t' me ship. So you basically have no answer why your clients HAVEN'T lost money "investing" with you after the recent significant exchange rate increase, which is the risk you hedge against by using their money instead of your own? I really wish you knew what you were talking about.  Ok really, I'm done. Btw people should pay attention to this ^. It's a serious red flag and he's "done" explaining.. |
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We're all filled up on crazy here! Got FUD? Check out these threads. inb4 thread locked again. On a more serious side, why is there a sudden surge of people attacking BS&T? Personally I got inspired by the EVE story which pirate's business has a remarkable similarity with, but it also reminded me of my crossing paths with ponzi scams irl and the devastation it always causes and so I couldn't help myself but to be another voice of serious concern in hopes to save some people from unnecessarily losing their hard earned money. |
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In my humble opinion the activity that Pirate is doing has all the characteristics of a Ponzi.
I am often quite surprised that they are so many people that seems to think that his business is genuine
“it is impossible to make a man see something that his `paycheck` depends upon him not seeing it.” That's one of the most important truths out there. |
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I don't think it's a BAD idea. What they achieved is printing money without negative effects of inflation There's no such thing as a free lunch. If someone use printing money to get something, with a fixed parity with another money like euro, then it's at the expense of someone else. Lol would you believe I wrote the post above before I read this? |
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since TEM credit is very cheap to aquire (zero intrest rates Why is it always the worse idea that get the best publicity? :/ Because they are usually able to present the idea wrapped in some inspiring engaging fantasy which could never ever be true in a world where it's a fact that there is no free lunch. |
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6 months from now you will be calling ponzi, 1 year from now you will be calling it a ponzi. We get it you think it is a ponzi move on unless you really have nothing better to do with your life.
If you really believe that then I'm sure you've made a huge bet here: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=433Bitcoin Savings and Trust will default before the end of 2012 (This bet is a mirror of prediction #349.) http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=349 The assertion is that Bitcoin Savings and Trust will default on payments on or before December 31. 2012. This assertion is true if Bitcoin Savings and Trust is unwilling or unable to pay out requested deposits on or before December 31st, 2012 according to the opinion of Bitcointalk.org members on the Bitcoin Savings and Trust Forum Thread. Bitcoin Savings and Trust Forum Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0Info Opening date: June 7, 2012 Bet deadline: Dec. 29, 2012 end of day Eastern Time Event date: Dec. 31, 2012 end of day Eastern Time Category: Economics Total agree bets: 5.50 Total disagree bets: 0.50 Total weighted agree bets: 25002.851 Total weighted disagree bets: 2452.406 |
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No one with half a brain thinks it is a ponzi...
Precisely, only those with a whole brain financially and economically literate do. |
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So you're simply going to stick your head in the sand and refuse to examine the more important question of why people shouldn't break the Constitution? Makes sense since there's no good reason not to.. Keep in mind it took the US about 200 years to get corrupted from start to finish, so with my protocol and BTC for national currency you could have a very long lasting stable wealthy society.
Wrong, it happened a hell of a lot sooner then that, more like 20 years or so after the war with Britain when the SCOTUS started issuing various opinions reinforcing the role of the federal government over state sovereignty. Look, this is what I think you don't understand: The constitution is just 4 pieces of paper, basically a PR statement of a small gang of people making rules for everyone else and enforcing them through the use of violence. It's not a contract, no one signed it and even if they did last I checked contract can't be transferred to the signatory's posterity so why on Earth would anyone follow the constitution when it so much more lucrative not to? Do you know of a single case where it's more than obvious they didn't follow the constitution and they faced any ANY negative repercussions at all? What you are asking for is for human beings to act against their human nature by following a document they have no actual obligations to follow while forgoing huge rewards for the exact opposite actions, news flash, it's not going to happen, like ever. It's simple really, the constitution either gave you the government that you have today or it was unable to prevent it, in either case it's unfit to fulfill it's intended role. Wake up already! All there is is you and your freedom and if YOU aren't going to protect yourself and your freedom, no one will. Instead of trying to improve a dying idea, how about you instead examine what services does the government provide and try and offer those at a lower price and with a higher quality as a private business with a voluntary customer base. Because that's where the real solutions lies, no where else. |
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I am just wondering after the folding what will happen with the multiple of people promoting the scheme and their reputations ...
Nothing although I plan to singlehandedly change that in the future with a service I have plans to develop. |
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Let us adult do with our money what we want. We do not need any one to regulate us. That is why we used BTC...
Yeah sorry to burst your ponzi "investor" apologist's bubble but that's not how a market regulated by strictly market consumers (i.e. the free market) works. No no no.. People may have learned this lie in public school that if there is no government regulation then there is no regulation at all and chaos follows but as you can see that's not the case at all. I can't wait for this scam to implode so that this market gets more aware of the dangers lurking for to scam and steal and some private agencies pop up that will provide the service of audits and ratings which right now aren't being done like at all. All we have are a few concerned participants raising valid concerns trying to educate the less financially literate but make no mistake, this too are perfectly valid and inescapable regulations that naturally arise in any free market. |
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Only reason you guys are whining is this: interest payments are "too generous" and your huge egos are severely bruised because you can not figure out wtf is he doing  No. We are whining because we know the future. Just watch. And we don't even care as much about all of you who support (and may or may not account for the risk of) putting your money into something with so many red flags, you are free to lose your money however you please. The reason we're so vocal is because most people don't account for the risk, most people are not financially literate and savvy in this area of expertise to know just how high the risk of them being scammed in this case is and these are also usually the people that can least afford to lose the money and we are vocal so that hopefully maybe these kind of potential "investors" get warned and hopefully decide against risking their money. You can't imagine how fking destructive ponzi schemes are. I had a rl friend who fell into one, heck I even have my sister participating in one right now (though luckily I managed to get her to at least take out what she initially put it) and I have first hand real life experience what happens when the shit hits the fan. That friend, when it all went bust, do you know what he did? He went and crashed his leased BWM and almost killed himself just so he could collect insurance, he lost most of his good friends who care about him and surrounded himself with vultures who care about nothing but their own personal gain and would do anything for it. So yea. You know, you're right, it must be that I'm jealous when I warn people from getting themselves in a spot that could lead to all kinds of shit, yeah, that must be it.  |
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What if he continued to raise the same, already answered, question.. Like a skipping record during a gymnastics floor routine at the special olympics?
You kind of have to if your goal is to continuously warn latecomers about the dangers and risks. |
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