Dude I may well do in future. Convince me.
The burden of proof is on you. we certainly haven't got time to deal with this. Simply wait around until the launch and then see whether we would be a safer bet than companies that are requesting direct payments. Not a single ASIC vendor has delivered on time yet for all their order; the reason why they get away with it is because they've already been paid. (other than ASICMINER)I just don't understand why they need money held in limbo in escrow, when they can afford release the funds and therefore to get paid when they have the products ready made and in hand? The only reason would be to prevent people from purchasing elsewhere or to pull some form of scam. If you have the funds to make the products, there's no need for pre-orders. Maybe I missed it but what if a customer wants a refund before the product ships? Is escrow released back to the client? |
|
|
|
There's no need to "prove it." It doesn't matter what you believe. Reality doesn't care about you, or haven't you figured that out yet? When you are an adult, you'll realize the real world doesn't care about you and neither do I.
Well thought out and reasoned rebuttal champ! |
|
|
|
I never said it was all from BFL, but the vast majority is and will continue to be for awhile yet. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise, heh.
Well that certainly proved it, thanks... |
|
|
|
Yea, BFL users must be living under a rock if they believe the diff increase is primarily due to BFL. Sure they take part but give me a break. Look around, there are other ASIC companies releasing chips and units at a much higher rate than the public BFL information. Sure, BFL could be mining the crap out of the network but that is not due to the ones they have shipped.
Care to provide a link to anyone shipping, besides BFL? Care to provide some kinda proof and numbers that ALL the unknown has rate is BFL? Oh that's right you don't provide solid numbers you just make comments that imply you have shipped all that hash rate. |
|
|
|
Remember initially they were going to have their NRE all paid for up-front. So what changed? I imagine their investor(s) looked at where the market and difficulty was going and decided it was way too much risk for however many million and backed out and Cointerra decided to offload risk to pre-order customers and continue with the venture.
That was HashFast, I think. Cointerra said they were going to do pre-orders but had spent like 1.5m already... Someone showed a photo of their original presentation, I think to investors? somewhere earlier in this thread where they'd been planning to do upfront NRE themselves and sell finished products. That then changed and they affirmed the pre-order model. Why would any company risk their own, or investors money when they can risk your money for nothing? Economics 101 people: Business model A, fund entire business with owner/investor capital. Company is successful and owners/investor make a killing. Company flops, goes bankrupt etc owners/investors lose all/majority of investment Business model B, fund as little of the start up as possible while still retaining all/majority ownership, round up investomers to pre-order and bare majority of risk. Company is successful and owners make a killing, investomers simply get a product they paid for that they will be lucky to break even on and WILL be obsolete in a few months. Company flops, delays delivery, goes bankrupt etc and owners are out only initial funding (at worst, possible owners actually profit off bankrupting/delaying delivery LOL) while investomers lose EVERYTHING/majority of +ROI. There is a reason why the majority of ASIC manufacture's want you to shoulder the risk FOR them instead of WITH them, look at BFL and Avalon for two big reasons why (SHIT HAPPENS when you don't control every single solitary process and even sometimes when you do!) |
|
|
|
I wish eveyone would quit freaking out over the difficulty level....a small rise in BTC value say to 110 or 120 will more than make up the difference in daily earned BTC. Why is is UTTERLY STUPID economic argument always end up being posted? BTC value does not matter because you could have bought BTC and sat on it instead. So if you don't achieve ROI in BTC terms, you lost, no matter the price. lol, I guess i have to re explain my point ,,, obviously I threw an air ball... No, no there is no need to explain Pankkake is 100% right and you are 100% wrong, but you did throw and air ball, that part is correct. |
|
|
|
It's not like I have ever hidden that.
Agreed you have been open, reading a lot of the BFL threads and seeing your posts is how I came to those conclusions. I was not intending to imply you were hiding things just pointing it out for anyone who may not have be totally familiar with the background. |
|
|
|
Just keep in mind that when things break down, the poll you insist on having, can become a double edged sword which cuts both ways.
(I like all of you group buy hosts and if you know the least of human nature this will obviously turn out badly for everyone involved.)
PuertoLibre = Master Avalon shill. What BitSyncom is doing is also, or even worse than BFL... PuertoLibre, please, put your very smart BFL threat advice to BitSyncom now...cause we have a new (scam) Champ' here  PL = ASIC horse race winner (made the right choice backing Avalon B1) has likely made thousands of dollars from his initial $1300 USD investment and at one point (maybe not currently I don't really know) appeared to be, unsurprisingly a Yifu fanbois. I'm stone cold guessing here but he could be sitting on a nice little stash of BTC quietly waiting for Avalon Gen2 devices and cheap resale ASICS. Not sure you will see the passionate disdain for Avalon he openly showed for BFL, just saying. |
|
|
|
From what I understand, their account is already dead.
What makes you say this? Someone posted in one of these threads that they tried to order using paypal and it didn't go through. If someone wants to test, they'll certainly be able to cancel the order the next day. Ya I read that one as well but if it is only the one report of it happening it may not be fair to assume the account is dead. Could be a lot of reasons why one dude couldn't make a paypal payment (could even be that person wasn't being truthful!). With only the single count and still seeing PP as a payment option on their website I assume its still active at this point. |
|
|
|
From what I understand, their account is already dead.
What makes you say this? |
|
|
|
No wonder the 1% exists in society.
The wealthy elite ripped of that title from outlaw MC's. Free advice if you ever meet a man with a 1% tattoo RUN don't walk away as quick as you can. |
|
|
|
Shipping is expected in October, but refunds will be offered if nothing is shipped by Dec 31st...
You can cut the deja vu with a knife.
LOL wasn't there also a major cluster fuck with B2 Avalon check out as well, seems like BFL and Avalon rolled into one! |
|
|
|
Yes of course it would be better than nothing. My vote would be to explain the chip boxes (i added the link in my post above now) and where those chips went to, ship the chips fast or refund in full since in some weeks its too late to get the investment back with mining. (And who the heck wants to invests 100€, puts much work into it only to get 100€ out of it at the end?) The difficulty is rising from 62% to 75% per month already. Its possible next time it is 100% a month. See: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/I think yifu had plenty of time and experience to know how long it takes to get the chips. When i see the boxes my guess is that the chips already were created but someone bought them away. Yifu thought he could order new ones fast and now they are overdue... Ok, a refund would then be the best option. I'm curious, the address you sent the payments too? have they still not touched those coins at all? That would make their lives very easy suddenly, just return the coins into our wallets, and they can go on with their lives just as this did not happened. Announce a product in stock ,and sell out the stock (like production and selling should be).. Refunds it seems is not really an option (at least according to Yifu a little while ago)... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240189.msg2563031#msg2563031 |
|
|
|
And the worst part is, after he fucked us, he said "Don't worry, I'll do it again harder in October!"
No. The worst part is that there will be people willing to give him money in October after he pulled this stunt. Yes gen2 clients should be thanking all chip buyers for funding gen2 release (if they stick to no full payment pre-orders). |
|
|
|
Maybe now people will start to understand why ALL FULL fucking PAYMENT pre-orders are really really bad for most consumers No. No, they won't. A man named Ed Miller explained why in the Journal of Finance before most of you were born (1977?). He pointed out that only in perfect information markets is the demand curve flat (homogeneous expectations, like the theory states). When there's imperfect information, then it's not, and the price (and, here, the terms) are set by the most optimistic (a kind term for "biggest fools"), which are often quite a ways from the median or the consensus. So as long as information is imperfect, there will always be a sloping demand curve, with plenty of room for plenty of fools to enrich even the most brazen of scammers. I hate to admit it but I was born a number of years before 77, and ya Miller was right, it goes to my "gold rush mentality" statement at the end of my post |
|
|
|
The days of ASIC pre-payments are rapidly coming to an end. One string of ripoffs after another, with no light at the end of the tunnel.
I wish I could believe this, but I think you might be underestimating the $ in peoples eyes even still. Look at the last (well all of really LOL) the recent offerings and they all only offer full payment pre-orders and appear to be selling lots of them... |
|
|
|
|
Maybe now people will start to understand why ALL FULL fucking PAYMENT pre-orders are really really bad for most consumers and why the companies likes this business model (and why the want you to believe its the only way to get an ASIC made LNFAO).
You poor investomers took so much risk and what did Avalon risk, SFA IMO. Now once you poor investomers finally get your chips your profits will be 0 or quite possibly - but Avalon, with no risk makes a fucking killing either way LOL.
But hey I'd be willing to bet if Avalon sticks to the no pre-sales going forward that gen2 customers will appreciate you funding it all for them.
Wake up folks you have the goddamn POWER (money) stop supporting pre-orders, as a group with the power you can force these shady pricks to smarten up and be professionals. Well I guess that's probably to much to ask when a gold rush mentality exists.
|
|
|
|
so basically the news is that we're all proper fucked. if chips are 'stuck in customs', shouldn't buyers have gotten tracking info / notification on shipping before that happened? anyone have any insight on that process? wonder how many people will actually order the next gen stuff from these guys  IF they have it in stock AND at a "reasonable" $/GH/s ratio I guess a metric fuck ton of people will (including possibly me). People apparently are still buying from BFL, what does that tell you LOL. |
|
|
|
OP: TLDR
*payment only in BTC - so where is my guarantee that you will refund me anytime? may I use escrow?
*not working prototype, no video or photos. just some CAD render of black box and want our money now?
*almost 3 months of waiting and free thousand of dollars loan. splendid.
and because you are from USA, I should also add 20% VAT to webpage price. hm.(
as Ytterbium has so eloquently pointed out, you're not going to get any asic mining company to fund the entire NRE, tapeout, and production costs just so you can buy a profitable money generating machine. otherwise, they would just mine with it. I know this may be OT a fair bit but I think this is to generic of a statement and I can actually see why a company would want to retail a product vs mining with it if they funded NRE and production privately. I mean I see mining as a bullish bet on BTC. As it takes time to convert the sunk capital cost of the hardware to BTC until the BE point and then hopefully a profit (why wait for mined BTC if you don't believe price will increase). Not to mention you lose the ability use that capital for anything else until the mined coins return over time. That being said lets say there was a company that was already set up in the electronics manufacturing world, had retail and distribution, customer service, logistics infrastructure all in place humming along. They could conceivably add a line of miners to their catalogue. Now for such a company they don't have the resources on hand for mining farm (professional services required to set up basically a DC and manage it 24/7), they many not want to spend the capital, take time to learn, time to manage etc setting up a mine but could easily make a profit selling units to miners. Now this same company isn't a hard core bitcoin supporter and doesn't like the volatility of BTC prices AND would rather have cash in hand for a miner sale (1 in the hand is worth 2 in the bush so to speak) than plug it in and wait for it to return the investment (maybe) all the while your monthly revenues go down (until saturation point) or increasing monthly costs to maintain your HR share. The company has now made a profit without mining and has minimised their own risk at the same time. I think a lot of folks are coming at this from a POV that only a miner can make an ASIC therefore they will all pre-order or mine. I think its clear at this point the majority (if not all current players) may do this but that doesn't mean that no other method is viable. |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
