such a firey debate! haha
Look, if a company makes money (profit) then they are entitled to spend that as they see fit. If they run out of cash to refund customers or just flat out refuse then I personally think that's a bit rough. I can't help but point out though that mostly they have said preorders have dates that are estimates and they can vary. What seems to be in dispute here is what is a reasonable delay in shipping. Obviously some customers don't; agree with BFL's judgement of reasonable delays. I can understand this for first run and even second but you would think you could get more accurate dates after that.
I still think there needs to be more balance in this whole thing. If you were a new manufacturer and your suppliers (most likely from china) kept letting you down and not delivering the components you need (which lets face it is pretty common with Chinese manufacturing) then you would hope that your customers, who were told and accepted that this is all pretty new development stuff, would be understanding.
You would also though get some funding behind you so that you could afford to refund some customers as it's inevitable that some will not be happy and you want to ensure a good reputation.
I can't help but think BFL has copped more flack than perhaps it should have...i'm not excusing anything they have done, I just understand some of it I guess and I certainly don't deny those unhappy customers their right to dissatisfaction nor do I think they are wrong.
Do you really consider preorder money for nonexistant hardware to be profit? Before shipping a single machine they are allowing employees and their family members free access to customer funds? And how can you blame china for BFLs failures? Are you really BFL josh? How can component delays delay your product? You should have everything ready months in advanced. You do realize that a majority of the hashrate is powered by chinese machines? The a1 miners and bitmain have never sold preorders nor have they scammed customers like BFL has. BFL has shown time and time again that they only use preorders as a marketing scheme. They don't sell in stock hardware because they are not confident in their abilities to deliver on time or to specification. This is fraud plain and simple. |
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Do you guys plan on removing the products on your website which have been scrapped?
Also plan on removing the false advertising? This uses a hashfast processor not a fasthash one. Also doubt it is 0.8w/gh at the board level.
And 750gh +-20% means this chip could theoretically reach 900gh/s yet HF has yet to even break 800gh.
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Did FC explicitly say there wouldn't be any dividends till the financial report, or is that just speculation?
I think thats pure speculation. I theorize that there will be no dividends until we ship chips to those who have purchased them since those funds must be held for refunds until we actually ship out the chips in case we don't ship the chips. This. I don't know why some are expecting FC to pay out divs before the chips are even sold/shipped/confirmed functional. Refunds would be a nightmare if divs were already given out. 1) When can we expect the financial report that's supposed to coincide with the next round of dividends?
re 1) May 27. This suggests that both financial report and first divs will be payed out on the 27th. |
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PS: did you notice the lack of shitstorm(from customers) with AM missing spec/date?
That's because shareholders have blind faith in friedcat. Let's see how gen3.1 goes. You already had one month with no dividends right? If AM doesn't start shipping gen3.1 chips in 1 month i assume people will start asking questions. If they won't ship/pay good dividends in 2 months then the shitstorm is coming. Shareholders only have as much blind faith as you have in spondoolies. But I agree there will be a shitstorm if there are no dividends in 2 months. But as shareholders you agree to take thay risk knowing it is a gamble. Also to clarify I think the chances of SP underperforming are as likely as overperforming. However it's impossible to know without a chip in hand. I'm more skeptical of the shipping date. If they are taping out in may that leaves no room for delays. |
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did someone fail to acknowledge - SP10 has shipped. my order was a preorder for batch2. you are becoming ignoreworthy my friend.
Built to order and preorder are two entirely seperate things. Why do I need to elaborate on AM BS ? Am I a SH ? Do I wait for dividends ? You don't necessarily have to but im just asking since you made the claim. |
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SP is going to have a massive shit storm if they miss spec.
We're not AM: 0.2, oh no, 0.35, oh no, 0.55, oh no, wait to gen 3.1, oh no, wait to gen 4  I know you're not AM/BFL/HF/CT/KNC/BA/bitmine/Avalon (all the companies who missed spec/ship dates) But you have yet to prove you are different. Let's see how well your first preorder goes. And second. And third. And maybe then I might trust your estimations. PS: did you notice the lack of shitstorm(from customers) with AM missing spec/date? How much BS (my favorite: "there will be "gen3.1", which is exploiting the production options from the fab the minimize the consumption."
Care to elaborate? |
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unlike some other companies who won't even release specifications to their patient customers Roll Eyes Could there be a reason for this? Could it have to do with the fact that no asic manufacturer to date has been accurate with their estimations? SP is going to have a massive shit storm if they miss spec. |
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how could they prove that? they would need to get a warrant for connection logs or something right? I noticed the monarch product page is very clear about being preorders and that they cannot promise any dates and that if you don't like that then don't order. How is that illegal or even immoral? (putting aside the hashing on eclipse).
What do you think of the photos? does that prove to you that I got a brand new unit (even if this is the exception rather than the rule).
Sounds like words straight from the mouth of the bullshitter josh himself. Here are a few but not nearly all of the laws BFL has broken: - denial of refunds - false advertising - using customer hardware to make money - slander of critics - paying shills Please do explain how this makes it very clear that monarchs will be shipping in july or later:  |
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Has anyone acheived 0.35w/gh chip level in low power mode?
Whats the best efficiency these can get?
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You have never been in a fist fight in your life.
I guarantee you ... you wouldn't talk to me like that face to face.
I am done with this thread. You are a keyboard warrior who has never, ever punched someone in the face before.
Obligatory: do you even lift? |
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Fucking idiot - you are one of those 'google detective nerds' who think you are smart ... but you really are a fucking moron. Says the guy who feels the need to tell you that money can be used to pay for lunch.. Who are you trying to fleece? Middleschoolers? |
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Keep in mind that without miners - crypto dies.
We NEED miners.
I say spend your money ALL on mining gear.
Just buy the right stuff.
SO MUCH out there is over priced and ridiculous.
If you find the RIGHT gear (and know when to move it and upgrade) then you will be fine.
Don't listen to this guy. He has a limited amount of knowledge and understanding. Investing everything in mining will likely never even ROI. LOL You have NO CLUE who I am and what I have done in the bitcoin world. I been around a LOT longer than you. I can guarantee that. Your website looks like a scam. You can use mining to pay the following items:
cell phone bill
car insurance payment
monthly vehicle payment
internet bill
cable TV bill
upgrade computer equipment
lunch money
WOW I can use money to buy things? This is news to me! Where do I send all my bitcoins? 04.29.2011
w00t!coin Admin
Welcome to w00tcoin.com – cryptocurrency hardware store." Domain Name: W00TCOIN.COM Registry Domain ID: 1839493919_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.comUpdate Date: 2013-12-17 14:08:18 Creation Date: 2013-12-17 14:08:18 |
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3) What capacity of gen 3 hardware is supposed to be used for franchised mining?
re 3) Depending on the capacity of our franchisees. We personally think 20P could be possible even inside China Very nice. About 10 times what I expected. Thanks for the updates as always. @klondike bitmain always advertised 0.68w/gh chip level |
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You seem to think lowering voltage can guarantee higher efficiency. Show me some proof. Has it ever occurred to you that chip manufacturers may have already set voltage as low as possible without diminishing returns?
You repeat over and over that it has to work because "physics" and yet in reality there is not a single person with an asic who acheived less than 0.5w/gh at the chip level.
Here's some proof, oh yeah and BTW our chip on 55nm achieved that "less than 0.5W/Ghash" back in june 2013  Well that's about as solid proof as it gets. Thanks for proving me wrong without theoretical evidence. 0.38w/gh is incredibly impressive but I want to know is it still cost effective while only 1gh per chip? And puppet this in no way validates your claims that any and all asic manufacturers can increase efficiency beyond what was advertised. Bitfury is a rare exception and even then 0.38w/gh was advertised I was just unaware of it. Please note that it seems that 96 Mhz is close to _BEST_ solution This leads me to beleive that even bitfury is towards the deep end of the shmoo plot. How do we know other manufacturers are not? And even if all manufacturers can acheive below 0.38w/gh can they do it cost effectively? |
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You do realize bitmain s1 could achieve 1.2w/gh at the wall right? That's a tad bit more than half as efficient than an s2(1.1w/gh)..
You moron, S1 and S2 use the same chip. So of course S1 is capable of achieving similar efficiencies if you underclock and undervolt them just like in the S2. Thats the whole point. The difference is that S1 by default uses a clock and voltage setting that results in ~2W/GH at the wall while for S2 they picked a point that roughly cuts that by half. S1 has ALWAYS advertised up to 0.68w/gh at chip level and 1.2w/gh at the wall. OVERCLOCKING resulted in 200GH and 2w/gh at the wall. Again do you have a single example that suggests any asic is capable of higher efficiency than advertised? |
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As for watt/GH; also there we do not need Moore's law to get a doubling in 2 years. THe very same asics being sold today almost certainly have the possibility to be downclocked and downvolted to achieve that doubling (or more), be it at the expense of performance per chip. ALmost all miners sold today are being run and sold at the top end of the voltage/clock shmoo plot, which is evidenced by the fact that they typically barely overclock at all. To see what changing of voltage and clock can do, look at Bitmain S2, which is the exact same chip as in the S1, but is twice as power efficient. Im willing to bet KnC, HF, CT, etc can easily double their power efficiency too on their existing designs, once that trade off becomes worthwhile. But since electricity cost is only a tiny fraction of most miners cost, and pricing of hardware is far more dependant on hashrate than power efficiency, it doesnt make sense for 28nm designs today. Doesnt mean they cant.
You do realize bitmain s1 could achieve 1.2w/gh at the wall right? That's a tad bit more than half as efficient than an s2(1.1w/gh).. Got any better evidence of your claims? |
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Newest hilarity from mpex: http://trilema.com/2014/the-wunderbar-smpif/This arrangement has a number of advantages, chief among which that the pooling of resources under my expert eye allows perhaps the best risk profile available for any Bitcoin financial vehicle in the history of the coin.
Dice sites. This consists of a single 50 BTC investment in just-dice. Out of the 1084 total investors it last reported, this places us around position 100. This would be mostly a passive investment, and it doesn’t have (nor, in my view, need) a manager per se, other than all of dooglus‘ hard work.
Wow. What would we do without your expert eye. Very impressive fund so far. Line betting. MPOE-PR has agreed to implement on BitBet the strategy discussed earlier on irc. As per the agreement, she will split 1 BTC two ways on arbitrarily selected bets at high weight. Her original piggybank is 50 BTC, but will be expanded if needed so she doesn’t have to wait for bets to close.
Good idea. Does the strategy include make unfair bets and determine the results according to your own ruling? Seems legit. S.MPIF liquidity. Obviously as a freely traded asset, S.MPIF may trade for values other than its calculated NAV. ThickAsThievesiii has a 50 BTC piggy bank on MPEx which he can’t withdraw, but will use to try and extract a profit out of providing liquidity. Very smart. How would the fund survive without market manipulation? Overall I give this investment a 9/10. Only drawback is not enough gambling. |
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Without going into the debate with competitors too much - from what is observable from the progression in bitcoin mining IT is that gen3 equivalent hardware from AM and "next-gen" hardware will likely co-exist long-term (> 2 years). This is because there are 10-fold variations in energy prices dependent on location and still large bitcoin price fluctuations, which gives mining a timing value. As such one may expect the less efficient hardware to migrate into areas of low electricity costs and opportunistic mining, while high-efficiency hardware goes into high-cost areas (e.g. through supply and maintenance chain issues) and sustained mining. This will make the overall hashing power of the network much more elastic.
The bottom line is that while gen1 or gen2 ASICs may come to an abrupt death, the gen3 ASICs will likely fade out smoothly.
I agree with your end game prediction about hardware distribution and that gen3 will fade out much slower than previous generations but I don't think it will take 2+ years. The market will be flooded with 14nm asics by then. Although there is a 10-fold variation in electricity prices, mining will only be feasible for the top few percent. It really doesn't make much sense to mine with $0.2+/kwh. |
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bobsag said he thinks those with a single x1 order will receive a second x1 free. This would be great but we still need to wait for clarification.
I am checking about that, and offering a Gift Card to my store for the equiv value to allow to be ordered on X1 or X3. Any update on this situation? Also im a bit confused, will the gift card be the cost of an entire prospero? Or 50%? Can we use the GC on something else from your store? |
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dude, you really could cause an argument in an empty room. chill down.
You do realize I was defending your favorite company which you speak about at every chance right? Am I wrong to think that spondoolies next gen will be in an entirely seperate class of asics compared to what is currently on the market? Without any testing or a single shred of evidence do you really think current gen asics can be simply undervolted to reach below 0.38w/gh while still being cost effective? |
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