IMHO ASICMiner has scammed more people out of their hard-earned BTC than you guys claim Sonny has, and he did it in such a way YOU'RE ACTUALLY HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!!!
How did they do this? By auctioning off hardware and then shipping it to happy customers who got it within a few days of ordering? Or by creating a mining cooperative like they said they would and paying dividends like they said they would? |
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If you go by pictures, the Jalapeno was supposed to be ~1/2 the height it is currently and the LS/Singles were supposed to use what is now the Jalapeno case. Plans change dude, just cause concept = something that looks like an EXT-HDD and turns out different does not equal scam. Once again, talk about the products that actually shipped, not the "were supposed to be" because you saw a little photo on a shopping cart page. There are plenty of reviews and real photos of what was shipped. The Bitforce Single was not a Jalapeno, it was an FPGA miner, it was not shipped in a hard drive case, it was shipped in an appropriate cube shaped black case similar to, but not identical to, what we now call a Jalapeno 5GH/s ASIC miner. People know this. The person posting the pictures knows this. His point was this: what BFL sells you does not resemble what you will actually receive. It's form factor will be different. It's power to generate bitcoins will be diminished because it is already 4 months late (feb 2014 intead of nov 2013). It will cost more to run because BFL's power estimates have been wildly optimistic to date. |
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Thank you Pay"PAL" !  "Outside the 45 days we can't do nothing, even if they are Criminals" - a quote from a paypal agent I just had on the phone ! Seems like the american paypal customer service is a bit more aware, if they helped you. Is fraud@ or customerservice@ paypal.com any good to adress this whole thing to? German customer "service" seems to know sh**! Cheers and good luck@all It might be that US law and FTC regulations compels PayPal to help, while German/EU law may not.  Also, make sure PayPal knows that you gave them the opportunity to address the issue before you went to your Credit Card Company. |
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Didnt work for me even referring to that txn. Theyre claiming - its been left too long and - that its illegal for them to try and claw back funds from the vendor - that they cant claw back funds for the vendor (for unmentioned reasons) Going to have to try the chargeback route. [/quote] Same problem here. PayPal doesn't give a **** ! [/quote] Also try informing PayPal that you wanted to give them a chance to resolve it first, before you went to your Credit Card company and issued a chargeback. |
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I generally don't ignore as I consider that a bullshit move to censor people I don't agree with. I really hate it when they do it to me like PG just did a minute ago...
I don't have anyone on ignore either. I do however consider it rude that he goes in and hijacks every single thread with his useless bullshit. Who can honestly say this entire thread isn't a 100% blatant attempt to cause drama on the forums??
Not 100% useless. Didn't he just bring us the gem of Josh forgetting he was logged in as another user on the Shoutbox. And not every single BFL thread, he hasn't gotten to this one yet: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258622.0He has been a bit crazy since operation Monarch was unleashed on the BFL investorpool. Then again, a lot of people have been a bit miffed about it as well.  |
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most of the mods probably agree with us.
Hey, I can respect that. Don't get me wrong, I get a kick out of the clown show that PG produces every day. I really appreciate that. But even I can see this guy is whipped up into such a fury that thunderbolts are shooting out of his ass like the spirit of zeus smiting down some shit the likes of which we have never seen. If I were Josh I would be laughing so hard at this level of crazy this guy is at i would breaking my sides. Lets make a BFL hate subforum and require everyone to post there. At least then I could ignore that shit or know where to go for true comedy. Right now I have to figure out which threads PG has been posting in. Very inconvenient. You could ignore him... But yes, all BFL threads should be moved to Scam accusations IMO. If it has Butterfly or BFL, or Monarch in it, move it to Scams. |
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Wow, and you deleted my reply. Think that proves my point. Your only interested in a big circle jerk where everyone agrees with out.
Here it is again. If you delete me again, I'll simply start a new thread to copy it into.
Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on July 15, 2013, 08:35:30 AM
8 more days!
PG - This is the dumbest shit you have ever said. Its not even worth suing someone for less then 50k these days. Even that amount is questionable. I doubt it would be worth the time to sue you. I doubt you have any money they could collect on. Saying you would put a broomstick up Josh's ass if he was standing in front of you? Thats practically a terrorist threat.
If you want to put your action where your mouth is, I dare you to put up a $50k escrow, where a registered arbitration company decides who keeps it based on you proving your claims. If your not willing to do that, you should either STFU with your stupid negativity, or be banned from these forums.
The ponit is, you provide nothing new to these forums and only serve to corrupt and add negativity to every single thread you post on. Someone posts anything BFL related, you can be fucking sure PG is there trolling it up.
Your thoughts are fucking clear. No one needs to listen to your stupid fucking rants day after day. You poison this forum with your negativity. How the fucking mods have let you go on this long with no warnings is beyond me. I cant be the only one who thinks you drove your point down into the ground, out the other side of the earth into fucking orbit.
If you keep this shit up adding no constructive discourse to this forum, I'll either make it my personal mission in life to get you banned from this forum or I'll leave this forum in protest for them allowing trolling. I have no problem with you but your seriously acting like a fucking OCD patient in a psyche ward.
Jesus FUCKING CHRIST.
@Therymos Can we please give this guy a warning or a ban or something?
most of the mods probably agree with us. Why does jhansen858 click on threads with PG in them? In fact, why isn't he ignoring PG if he doesn't like what he posts? PG goes over the top, but it is a simple problem to solve. One day, BFL might not shit all over their customers and then we can find out if it is just personal with PG.  |
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Anyone who wants a 100% pre-order instead of a 10% deposit needs the funds to finance development and/or production.
How many ASIC companies are taking a 10% deposit? The difference is that BFL declared they were not touching the pre-order funds. So they shouldn't have needed to take the risk of holding 100% of the money, they could have taken a 10% deposit, unless they were a scam. Then of course they wouldn't leave 90% of the money on the table. All the other companies were up front about using the funds to finance NRE and production, so they were up front about what they were using the funds for. |
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1) If I were german and paid for an ebay order through paypal with Duetche marks it would be converted to USD (or some other fiat) and credited to the seller. When asking for a refund, that USD (or other fiat) would be removed from the sellers account and the Marks would be credited back to mine yes, we get back what we paid, and yes, exchange rates may have shifted, but that's like 1%.
Nope. You get exactly the number of Marks, Dollars, Pesos, etc that you put in. They use the exchange rate at the time of the purchase, not the time of the refund. From Paypal's websiteRefunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.2) According to what I read, the PREORDER money you are referring to was not spent ON RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE, but to assume as you are that none would be used to purchase the products needed to create the parts in question is laughable. How on earth could any startup company take 100's of millions of dollars of orders and not spend a cent of it on the materials to make the parts? Did Avalon only take 10% on it's preorders? Are all the other ASIC companies taking only 10% on their preorders?
They are called factor loans. Also, they could get investors. The usual route is to get a factor loan to buy the parts and then manufacture and ship the product. If they can't get one, that is a big red flag. What world do you live in? Try placing a special order sometime... most places require payment up front and have a 15% restocking fee if you cancel the order after it comes in. Whether you think so or not, that is basically what these pre-orders are, special orders. The materials to build them has been ordered and paid for and now people want their money back.
No. These are not specialized one off devices produced for a single individual. This is mass produced hardware. 3) Wow, just wow... Let's stop and think... WHY did BFL refuse refunds in BTC? Maybe because people were being unreasonable. "I paid 500 BTC and I want 500 BTC back (mainly because that $3000 is not worth $50000!!!!!)"
That is not unreasonable. That is business. If you hold someone's funds in escrow, you give them back what they put in. 500 BTC is worth 500 BTC, I don't care how many Euros or Dollars or Renmimbi it is worth. If you paid 10,000 BTC (worth $60,000USD in June 2012) and BFL kept it as BTC and the price today was $3 pre BTC, WOULD YOU ACCEPT YOUR 10,000BTC BACK or would you call them a scam and demand 20,000 BTC cause you spend $60,000?
I spent 10,000 BTC. It was worth 500,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars and when I asked for a refund it was worth 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars so why wouldn't I be happy? Z$500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is way more than Z$500,000,000, so I came out ahead right? If they hold that 10,000 BTC in escrow and I asked for a refund and then they refunded my 10,000 BTC, I would have to be happy they gave it back. BTC is money. If you hold someone's money for them, you don't play exchange rate games with them. If BFL wasn't prepared to assume the risk of holding BTC, then they shouldn't have offered to take it and hold it for 12 months. |
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If Mouth-Full-Of Earth is a Josh sockpuppet, he is literally the greatest long conman in history, IMO.
I think Madoff was way better. Bernie would never have screwed up in the shoutbox like Josh did. |
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Clueless. BFL takes BTC payments through Bitpay which means whatever coins are immediately converted to USD and sent to them. BFL does not have a storage wallet they keep BTC in, they only have the USD. If you had bought in May when BTC was $100-120 and refunded in Aug when BTC hit $70 you'd have done well.
This has already been debunked thoroughly. Bitpay will only convert the bitcoins if the merchant instructs them to. BFL could have kept all of their payments in Bitcoin without converting any of them, which they should have in case they needed to refund them. Ah yes, here's the old hindsight is 20/20 routine. Obviously they kept all the BTC they were ever paid without ever converting it into USD cause they KNEW the price was going to spike.  I supposed they also kept all the rubles and francs and pounds and marks and yen they were paid without converting them either, IN CASE THEY HAD TO REFUND THEM AS WELL. Paypal, Amazon, Ebay, and many other companies give you back exactly what you put in when you ask for a refund. That is what is common business practice. Businesses cannot afford to hold onto a commodity (Yep, I said commodity and not currency) like Bitcoin due to it's volatile nature. <snip>stuff about hedging risks</snip>
Businesses should not hold on to Bitcoin yes. But scams would. Why else would BFL ask for a 100% deposit yet claim they would not spend the pre-order money? If they were not going to spend it, but instead hold it, then yes they should assume the asset risk. Instead, they pushed that off on their customers because most of them don't have the faintest clue what proper business behavior looks like April 5th BFL raises prices while BTC value is climbing. April 10th BTC tops $250 before plummeting to $80, climbs back above $150, drops below 100, climbs again to 130. Yea, let's ride the freaking roller coaster with 10's of millions of dollars FROM ONLY 2% OF SALES!
If BFL didn't need the money like they claimed, they could have taken a 10% deposit and lessen their commodity risk. It isn't the customers fault that BFL was faced with 12 months of currency risk. They shouldn't have to pay that toll as well. See, this is where it makes absolutely no sense to me... After receiving a potential 12,000 orders in March while BTC prices climbed from $20 to $60 and beyond, tripling the value BFLs BTC holdings in a single month, they double the price on all units.
We just became multimillionaires from holding onto a small percentage of all sales as BTC and we're so freaking greedy we stick it to the customers.
Dude, believe in your fantasies. I just don't see it.
I am not saying BFL did keep all the BTC, I am saying that BFL should have and could have (since they claimed they were escrowing pre-order funds) If they set the precedent that someone could get all their BTC back, every single person who pre-ordered with BTC in 2012 would ask for a refund. BFL would go out of business if they actually offered to make their customers whole. However, that is the risk they took by taking 100% deposits and being late by 10 months. Or BFL could have just been upfront and said "all refunds to be paid in USD because we are converting BTC to USD and spending it on development". Strangely, BFL has begun refunding people who paid in BTC with BTC. I guess that federal judge declaring that BTC was money put the fear of legal reprisal into them. Up till now, they just told you to fuck off if you paid with BTC. |
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Good to see BFL with the BBB rating they deserve.  There needs to be a G. |
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That said, you should be able to get a refund from BFL in USD.
Huh?? He mean they will convert the USD value of the product you bought to BTC based on current exchange rate if you want to request BTC refund Unless the exchange rate has fallen since then.  Then I bet they only return how many Bitcoin he paid. Clueless. BFL takes BTC payments through Bitpay which means whatever coins are immediately converted to USD and sent to them. BFL does not have a storage wallet they keep BTC in, they only have the USD. If you had bought in May when BTC was $100-120 and refunded in Aug when BTC hit $70 you'd have done well. This has already been debunked thoroughly. Bitpay will only convert the bitcoins if the merchant instructs them to. BFL could have kept all of their payments in Bitcoin without converting any of them, which they should have in case they needed to refund them. The original thread: BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders. BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.
Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD. When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order. This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker. BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.
You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faqBitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them. From the bitpay faq: https://bitpay.com/faqHow do I get paid?
Merchants choosing to keep the bitcoins can be anywhere in the world. Merchants in some countries can choose to receive a direct deposit into their bank account.
When do I get paid?
We prefer to send one payment to every merchant each day, which clears out their balance with BitPay. This prevents balances from accumulating and discourages hackers. Payments to bank accounts are made per business day. Payments in bitcoins are sent to the bitcoin address of your choice, at least once per calendar day.
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So how long till those who ordered the first 50 pre-orders and will be in the January "bullet run" start selling their pre-orders onto the next bigger fool? I thought of doing so, but I felt sorta bad to do that.
It is easier now that PayPal bounced BFL out. In fact, you could probably sell the same pre-order over and over. Then sell upgrades for Monarch 2.0 AND charge a 10% fee. |
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Ooo look, the little trolls are are riled up. Awesome  The waaambulance is busy today! Pirateat40 thought he got away with his fraud too. Order a Monarch today and BFL will tell you it will arrive in Nov of 2013. As soon as BFL gets your money, they tell you Feb 2014. |
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45 people just lost 4 months of anticipated mining revenue in 3 days.
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If K9 were paid,
He would ask:
What is the ROI like in February 2014?
(Yikes, don't do that!)
That is actually just outside my model. I don't project any further than 6 months ahead. Also, the probability that BFL will actually ship by February is very small given that just 3 days after announcing, they had to delay the product delivery from November 2013 to February 2014. |
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Notice how Josh/Inaba completely dodges the question of why they are selling November/December 2013 to their investors when they have already admitted the product will not realistically ship until January of 2014.
He also dodged the question of what changed in the last 3 days that caused a 2 month delay?
Sockpuppets gotta sock?
Actually it looks like it is february. Go look in the other threads. 3 days and already a 3 month delay? Even I never expected the surprise sex to be this swift and this brazen.  Ah, I see. They advertise November 2013, but can't know realistically ship until February 2014. 4 months of lost revenue in 3 days time. That is epic even for BFL. |
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Notice how Josh/Inaba completely dodges the question of why they are selling November/December 2013 to their investors when they have already admitted the product will not realistically ship until January of 2014.
He also dodged the question of what changed in the last 3 days that caused a 2 month delay?
Sockpuppets gotta sock?
Actually it looks like it is february. Go look in the other threads. 3 days and already a 3 month delay? Even I never expected the surprise sex to be this swift and this brazen. |
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