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821  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 24, 2013, 06:31:01 PM
But, Judge, Josh Zerlan called Satoshi Nakamoto a Monumental Asshole.

Case reopened!
OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PG IS SATOSHI NAKAMOTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I FOUND HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What? no reward?Huh?
822  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league against BFL scam. on: August 24, 2013, 06:29:32 PM
Who can show actual damages which cant be attributed to having 20/20 hindsight vision?  Meaning any argument along the lines of "well if i would have just been able to predict the future I would not have lost money" doesn't count. 

Actual damages is the lost mining income that resulted from BFL's failure to deliver in Oct 2012 (or whenever the latest promised date from BFL was when the order was placed). Should be a slam dunk case, since BFL is violating FTC rules (which are there to prevent this exact sort of situation).
In which case you would also need to know their exact orderbook at that time, along with the total increase in network speed that would occur prior to you receiving your equipment along with your current mining receipts from that time until now to prove you hadn't spent anything (since most will claim the 10x increase in BTC pricing as a loss as well). You'd probably need a lot more as well, like estimates on the drop in BTC price due to the flood of extra coins on the market while the difficulty tries to keep up while more than double the normal amount of coins is mined.

Sure looks like a slam dunk to me... NOT!
823  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 24, 2013, 05:43:59 PM
Yea, I don't think that bolded part get's him out of it.  What if the reader were to stop reading before that line?  They might be confused into thinking josh said his hardware will earn the buyer X amount of money.

Why would any person NOT demand a refund before these fools go bankrupt?
* Viceroy facepalms
Judge: Did you read the contract before you signed it?
Plaintiff: Well, I read part of it
Judge: So you did not read this part here...
Plaintiff: No
Judge: Case Dismissed... NEXT!
824  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 24, 2013, 05:23:08 PM
Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.
There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

No promise but misleading for noobs imo.

Quote
Income per month for the BFL ASICs (using the above) with no overclocking and ZERO power costs in USD is would therefore be around the following:
Jalapeno - $1,255/mth
"Little" Single - $8,373/mth
Single - $16,746/mth
Minirig - $418,651/mth

Bear in mind these are laboratory examples (i.e. in a perfect and controlled world) and your returns may not necessarily be this high. Actually, it's almost guaranteed you will never see these sorts of figures as there will be a whole heap of ASIC's hit the market which will dramatically affect hash-rate and difficulty. These values will definitely fluctuate daily as the market value of BTC fluctuates and hash-rates/difficulty changes. If you want to run your own calculations check out many of the BTC calculators online ranging from simple to complex. Here's an example to start you off: http://bitcoinx.com/profit/

There's a reason MLMs are not allowed to show the $ amounts when they present their matrixes.
825  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs New 600GH "Mining Card" - RED FLAGS?!?! on: August 24, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Dude, I can top that story.

I put in a 25 hour shift at a Waffle House in Florence, AL, on Christmas Day, 2001, the day after a major ice storm, and the electricity was still out during my entire shift.

We were able to cook because all the grills and burners were gas. Candles provided the lighting. From six in the morning to seven the next morning, me and the entire crew, sans two I fired during the shift for bitching (seriously), served a standing room only crowd.

Not a single customer bitched, because they obviously saw that we were doing the best we can to accommodate their needs--hunger--under the extreme circumstance.

I just happened to be the person who made sure that all three restaurants (Florence, Tuscumbia, and Sheffield) were stocked for the normal Christmas Day rush. I was fortunate to see the storm coming, thus overstocked a faction of a percent, of which I took heat for at the time, and even effected my food cost bonus.

None of the three restaurants ran outta food, and they were the only businesses opened during the blackout. While most the locals stayed home, we were feeding all the emergency personnel and people stuck in hotel rooms nearby.

At the end of my shift, I was a ZOMBIE, but returned 8 hours later to do it again for another 12 hours, but with electricity for the final 4 hours.

Ergo, not having common external PSUs on hand at Buffalo Labs is 100% uncalled for.
Very nice, glad it all worked out, BUT, what if the inventory orders you had made was on a truck that slid off the road and was unable to make your delivery?  Your story ended up with a successful ending due to forethought and you were lucky not to have any disasters, mine was a near disaster due to things beyond our control (which an overturned truck would have been for you).  There was a report a while back about a package they received that had been broken open in shipment and they only got something like 29% of their order (I could be off a bit).  This could be the long term effect of that shipment, you never know.

You have the luxury of dreaming of a picture perfert world where nothing goes wrong and when reality doesn't live up to the dream you place blame in what could end up being the wrong place.  I see missing facts, so while you could be right, you equally could be wrong.
826  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 24, 2013, 04:56:02 PM
Are you a lawyer bcp19?
Hmmm.... 20 years Navy... so best I can be is a Sea lawyer... why?
827  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL MiniRig Line:Concerned on: August 24, 2013, 04:54:45 PM
Define Pre-Order.
828  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 24, 2013, 04:52:37 PM
Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.
There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

OMG isn't that an offer to deliver a certain hashrate at a certain price and since they didn't deliver is this not an incredible liability?

Testing in the legal forum...

edit:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280514.0


Not sure what you are reading, but I see a post that basically says "So, you think you'll get rich? Think again and here's why"

They carefully explain what happens as the difficulty increases and what to expect at each level.

I see no delivery dates and no promises.  When was the last time you had your eyes checked?  (It would be impolite to imply you need your head checked after all).
829  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs New 600GH "Mining Card" - RED FLAGS?!?! on: August 24, 2013, 04:43:51 PM
here's a red flag. they use McDonald's analogies.



McD's keeps enough stuff in their freezer to keep operating 100% all the time.  Because they know if they're out of burgers people will just go to BK or Wendies.
You are only partially correct.  Having worked for McDonalds I can attest they have multiple freezers with the largest one being downstairs.  The freezer holding the  daily hamburgers and 1/4 pounders hold ~4 boxes of each and when low someone runs downstairs to get more.  The french fry freezer hold the bags taken from the boxes brought up from downstairs.

Now, a true story.  The town I worked in had a railroad line that cut through the middle of town.  If anything happened and a train broke down, there were a few underpasses that could be gotten to.  There was also a seldom used branch off the main line that if a train broke down on would cut ~20% of the town off from the rest.  One night this happened and during the normal rush hour for the evening we were only seeing 5-10 people an hour.  The manager, ever cost concious, ended up sending everyone home except the 4 people who would close the store at the end of the night.  I was cooking hamburgers and the Manager and 2 others were running the registers.  When the train finally got fixed and moved, we were packed.  I had upwards of 80 patties on the grills non-stop for 3 hours.  When the little freezer ran out, I had to have the manager run downstairs to get me more as I could not leave or I'd have charcoal on the grill.  I could not even take the time to prepare Filet-o-Fish or Apple and Cherry pies, the manager had to to them as well as wrap everything I sent up to him and try to keep the french fries flowing.  I was balls to the walls on the grills and buns and couldn't thik about ANYTHING else.  If the manager could not get me more product, we would have been dead in the water until I was out of everything I could cook and go get more.  You want a filet? Gotta wait.  Apple pie? Gotta wait.  When things slowed down to where we could breathe, the manager took a reading of sales and compared it to the charts.  The burgers I cooked during that 3 hour period should have taken a minimum of 7 people to do.  No floors got mopped, no bathrooms got cleaned, no trash got taken out.

So, spare me your unknowing diatribes about how the analogies are incorrect.  Until you have been there, you are clueless.
830  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XPM] [ANN] Primecoin High Performance on: August 24, 2013, 04:23:01 PM
I finally got brave today and checked all of my computers.  6 days, 5 computers (2@~.8 and 3@~.45 chains per day), 4 blocks.

Needless to say, I are happy!

Do you mean you're not checking at all? At least, you make sure that everyone is still mining, right? It would be too bad to have idle miners for days Grin
I have one main system I use with 4 others in the house currently operating (need a PSU for one, some troubleshooting on another and an old AMD laptop I doubt would get .05 chains per day).  Since I was clueless about wallets, I have 1 on each system.  I guess I should check that they are running more often, it's just that if I saw 2 blocks one day and no blocks for 3 days(which did happen), I might get discouraged and switch and miss the next 2 blocks.  Mining is still in the 'hobby' stage for me, so the 'loss' would not be a big deal.  Being retired, I don't have a huge need for the mining income, but it's nice to see Wink

Why would you care about having a different wallet on each system?
My understand from reading about the VPS' is that one wallet with 10,000+ 'addresses' can be used on multiple systems and thus you only need to check 1 to see all.  Since I have 5 wallets on 5 systems, I have to manually check each system to see if it mined anything or not.  Call me lazy, but I prefer not ro run from computer to computer throughout the house checking balances daily.
831  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What happened to mtrlt?: A continuing story on: August 24, 2013, 02:46:57 PM
Alright. I'll clear things up.

I realize that this behavior is probably for the most part: unwarranted, and immature.

Truth is. I'm bitter. Very bitter, especially recently with personal events. The reason why I initially created the thread is not really because I have much against mtrlt. I'm just bitter, a bit cynical too. There is an unreleased anger inside of me. Ever heard the phrase, "some men just want to watch the world burn"? Plus, mtrlt got on my nerves when he deleted the initial post I made. (As that one was legitimately stating facts, and then putting a funny image there to top it off. It just made me giggle.) All these things combined motivated me to create that thread. I did not intend to lie in the thread, but my bitterness has biased me to make the thread terribly biased.

I acknowledge that I'm probably an idiot, and an ass, and whatever else most people called me after creating that thread. I got it. I've heard it for many years from the voices inside my head. It does not surprise me by any means.

I'm not asking for forgiveness, since it changes nothing. I'm just making it clear that I acknowledge and accept my defeat. My bitterness is just an aimless destruction of everything in my path in whatever means possible, without reason.

I'm sorry about it, nonetheless.

I have closed the thread since it serves no purpose.
Thank you for informing us of the situation.  I know I for one can agree that life can affect how you treat others.  I often wish I could go back and apologize to the people that dealt with me when I was going through my divorce, I even got sent to anger management because of it.  I truly hope that things work out and that you are able to shed your bitterness in the future.  Godspeed.
832  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL MiniRig Line:Concerned on: August 24, 2013, 02:25:02 PM
5 months ago, BFL knew exactly how many boards they needed for their mini-rig orders. Yet somehow, they failed to order a few dozen PCBs? For 5 months, they were unable to order them? Even I don't think BFL was that low on cash. Or that high on dope.

On the other hand, a whole bunch of chips go into those boards and those chips are really expensive. So I could understand BFL waiting until their new chip order arrives (100 days from who knows when) before they make any more mini-rigs. This way they can continue to ship a few Jalapenos each day and show "progress".
OMG, did I just see UNDERSTANDING??? Wow, that must have been a typo! Wink

833  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league against BFL scam. on: August 24, 2013, 01:44:04 PM
FYI, BFL is actually physically located in Overland Park, Kansas but because of an old post office tradition, the Leawood mailing addgress is used.  Has to do with a few things that happened when Overlan Park tried to annex the whole county a few years back.

If you want the media in on this, here is the best way to go:

http://www.kctv5.com/category/209403/investigations

This TV station will not back down from any investigation they start.

My $.02.

Smiley
One thing to consider... what if the report just ends up making BTC and BFL more well known?  It could happen.
834  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What happened to mtrlt?: a continuing story on: August 24, 2013, 01:37:38 PM
Good Morning Readers!
    While I'd like to be able to report some news this morning, all has been quiet here of late.  There has been no word from ReCat explaning the discrepancy in his 'facts' as we reported yesterday, though several readers did kindly make posts to show support for both sides in this story.  The ball as they say is in ReCat's court and we await his response.

    Along those same lines, we reached out to mtrlt and asked if he would be ameanable to answering a couple of questions.  Last time I checked he had not been online since that request was made.  We'll keep you updated.

That is all we have for now, thank you again gentle readers for following us.
835  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What happened to mtrlt? Did he just scam us of 75 BTC? on: August 24, 2013, 01:16:56 PM
Perhaps there never will be an effective gpu miner.
In time a GPU miner will be created, it's just like trying to juggle 10 balls at once... if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.  The individuals inate abiliy combined with a drive to succeed will determine the length of time this will take.
836  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league against BFL scam. on: August 24, 2013, 04:23:26 AM
Finally, the final red flag, the lawsuits begin.

Someone, let out our war cry!
BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

Sorry, gas...
837  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Has anyone compiled a guestimate of the amount of pre-orders on: August 24, 2013, 04:21:45 AM
BFL: 7PH and rising.

Got a link or breakdown.
1) Has anyone compiled a guestimate of the amount of pre-orders.
2) I did a breakdown in a previous thread I cannot find ATM.  Worked out to an average .1TH per BFL order and ~70k orders using the ~4900 known orders.
3) Refunds were not taken into account due to lack of information.
4) Monarchs were considered the "and rising"



838  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL MiniRig Line:Concerned on: August 24, 2013, 04:07:47 AM

I'm very concerned and have not too much hope that any of the Minirigs will pay back. Our only chance would be a refund, maybe we should see how we can work together to get our money back?

I have a minirig order from March of 2013. They have refused my refund. I am going to pursue legal action with a very good friend who was an attorney at Federman & Sherwood for 5 years and recently took a better job. This case is exactly their bread and butter. If you have been refused a refund and are interested in your legal options, please PM me.

Thanks.
This is what I love about the instant gratification crowd... "not too much hope that any of the Minirigs will pay back" and They have refused my refund. I am going to pursue legal action.

Personally, I hope you request AND get your refunds.  That way, 6 months or a year or 2 years down the road when all the bitcoins you WOULD have carefully mined and stored since the receipt of your unit become worth 10-20x what you paid for it, I can laugh at your for your shortsightedness and stupidity.

Counting a rise in exchange rate to "profit is idoitic".  Couldn't he get a refund, use the cash to buy Bitcoins today and then when 6 or 2 years from now you laugh at him that the coins he could have mined are worth 10x as much he laughs and shows you he has even MORE bitcoins which have also increased 10x?

However you calling him an idiot is proof BFL will never go bankrupt.
Counting on a rise in the exchange rate is inevitable.  As more and more systems come online and difficulty climbs ever higher, people are going to start realizing that selling at current prices is going to eventually stop paying for the cost of electricity.  When that happens, more and more people will begin asking higher prices and refusing to sell at the piddly bids people are hoping to get cheap bitcoins with today.  The people I refer to as the 'instant gratification' crowd will be selling their coins as fast as they get them, frantically thinking they must or they will lose out.  The calmer heads out there will simply scoop up these coins and wait.  The panic selling of mining equipment will inevitably follow as people try to get some meager return on their investment selling at lower and lower prices, thinking the game is up.

Why not get a refund and buy BTC?  You're *REALLY* think the people so desperate about declining RoI will have the patience to sit on BTC?Huh?  Wow.

One last thing... *I* did not use the term idiot... you did.

Sock-puppet troll here.  Go away.
I am neither a sock-puppet nor a troll.  I cannot help it if you lack the vision to see the future.  In addition, I have the same right to be here as you do.
839  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL MiniRig Line:Concerned on: August 24, 2013, 04:03:53 AM

I'm very concerned and have not too much hope that any of the Minirigs will pay back. Our only chance would be a refund, maybe we should see how we can work together to get our money back?

I have a minirig order from March of 2013. They have refused my refund. I am going to pursue legal action with a very good friend who was an attorney at Federman & Sherwood for 5 years and recently took a better job. This case is exactly their bread and butter. If you have been refused a refund and are interested in your legal options, please PM me.

Thanks.
This is what I love about the instant gratification crowd... "not too much hope that any of the Minirigs will pay back" and They have refused my refund. I am going to pursue legal action.

Personally, I hope you request AND get your refunds.  That way, 6 months or a year or 2 years down the road when all the bitcoins you WOULD have carefully mined and stored since the receipt of your unit become worth 10-20x what you paid for it, I can laugh at your for your shortsightedness and stupidity.

Counting a rise in exchange rate to "profit is idoitic".  Couldn't he get a refund, use the cash to buy Bitcoins today and then when 6 or 2 years from now you laugh at him that the coins he could have mined are worth 10x as much he laughs and shows you he has even MORE bitcoins which have also increased 10x?

However you calling him an idiot is proof BFL will never go bankrupt.
Counting on a rise in the exchange rate is inevitable.  As more and more systems come online and difficulty climbs ever higher, people are going to start realizing that selling at current prices is going to eventually stop paying for the cost of electricity.  When that happens, more and more people will begin asking higher prices and refusing to sell at the piddly bids people are hoping to get cheap bitcoins with today.  The people I refer to as the 'instant gratification' crowd will be selling their coins as fast as they get them, frantically thinking they must or they will lose out.  The calmer heads out there will simply scoop up these coins and wait.  The panic selling of mining equipment will inevitably follow as people try to get some meager return on their investment selling at lower and lower prices, thinking the game is up.

Why not get a refund and buy BTC?  You're *REALLY* think the people so desperate about declining RoI will have the patience to sit on BTC?Huh?  Wow.

One last thing... *I* did not use the term idiot... you did.
840  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [XPM] So, why is porting primecoin mining to the GPU so difficult? on: August 24, 2013, 03:28:43 AM
The Lucas-Lehmer test currently available on GPU is very simple compared to the fermat testing needed for Primecoin.  A mersenne number is stated as 2p-1.  In order for a mersenne number to be prime, P must also be prime.  As stated on http://Mersenne.org/various/math.php, The Lucas-Lehmer primality test is remarkably simple. It states that for P > 2, 2P-1 is prime if and only if Sp-2 is zero in this sequence: S0 = 4, SN = (SN-12 - 2) mod (2P-1).  Trust me when I say the explanation is a lot harder than the actual math involved.  To prove 27-1 is prime take 6 steps, which is 1 less that the exponent of 7.  The current record Mersenne Prime, 257,885,161-1 took 57,885,160 calculations to prove as prime, requiring 15 days on my overclocked i5-2500k (4.3GHz) compared to ~4 days on an nVidia GTX 480 or ~3.5 days on a GTX 580.

Lucas-Lehmer test itself is computationally similar to Fermat test in the sense that they both rely on modular multiplication/square. But in the case of Mersenne the modulo is of a special form 2p-1, so the modulo operation can be done through only shift and addition.
I will admit that I don't undertand the fermat test well... my brain locks up at The triple bar, ≡, and the set membership symbol (∈).  :/
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