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401  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [HOWTO] kill any 100% PoS coins owning less than 1% of all coins. on: May 29, 2014, 03:45:33 PM
For 0.01 TX fee, the attack will be made just 1% more expensive.

So it doesn't matter.

It does matter. The 0.01 PPC tx fee will dramatically limit your attack power. You have to pay 0.01PPC tx fee for each smaller unit of PPC when you divide each PPC into smaller unit of PPC, so you can't divide one PPC into unlimited smaller unit of PPC.

That comes out as 1% overhead. 0.01/1*100 = 1%

You cant stake mine with balance under 1 coin, so that's the minimum you need to split.

You can't assume the minimum would be adequate.  You may need to subdivide into millions of separate transactions to provide enough leverage for this to work.  And then whether it will work depends on the specific implementation of proof of stake you're talking about.

Assume? It's the reality. In PPcoin (and in most PoS cryptos), you're not eligible for PoS mining if the coin's quantity is less than 1. They attacker may use 2 even, but there's no point in doing that.

To see if this attack will work on not depends on the situation (current difficulty) and not the design. All 100% PoS coins are vulnerable and hybrids are vulnerable to a certain degree.

I've heard that in peer coin that the coin age consumed plays a role in determining the preferred chain the network will follow, which may make this attack ineffective (if that's staking coin age, since you would consume very little in your attacking chain with this method), but I'm not sure on the specifics.  Someone who knows the details on the code would have to weigh in.  Since most PoS coins are forked from Peercoin, this attack may not be an issue.

Coin age used to mine blocks; I don't understand for what purpose it will determine what chain to follow. I mean, chains get forked for genuine reasons (network latency) and all chains will have to be respected for things to work and that includes the attackers chain. There's no way to determine the new forked chain being formed is by an attacker or not.

If this concept fails, you'll not get a return of 1% per annum. All coins in the wallet are treated equally as all coins in the network; each coin doesn't prefer a specific chain.
402  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][MHYC] MachineryCoin | x11 poW+100%POS |30 days POWs|June 3 launch on: May 29, 2014, 03:33:02 PM
Innovation is in ease of attack. One of the easiest to kill coins.
403  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] Scrypt-N - 3rd Place on Mintpal on: May 29, 2014, 03:30:10 PM
Don't sell below 1700 satoshi. There're always buyers and they want it bad.

Till date the miners have done a great job by not being desperate. Now we see the rewards. More patience = more rewards.
404  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] Scrypt-N - 3rd Place on Mintpal on: May 29, 2014, 08:16:06 AM
Poloniex.

What about cryptsy?
405  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] ★★ EBT Coin - Pure Proof of Stake - Critical update to 3.0.1! ★★ on: May 29, 2014, 02:16:02 AM
This's what PoS does to your coin.

Listen to the people, and you get dumped.
406  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [HOWTO] kill any 100% PoS coins owning less than 1% of all coins. on: May 29, 2014, 02:08:04 AM
For 0.01 TX fee, the attack will be made just 1% more expensive.

So it doesn't matter.

It does matter. The 0.01 PPC tx fee will dramatically limit your attack power. You have to pay 0.01PPC tx fee for each smaller unit of PPC when you divide each PPC into smaller unit of PPC, so you can't divide one PPC into unlimited smaller unit of PPC.

That comes out as 1% overhead. 0.01/1*100 = 1%

You cant stake mine with balance under 1 coin, so that's the minimum you need to split.
407  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [HOWTO] kill any 100% PoS coins owning less than 1% of all coins. on: May 28, 2014, 05:47:33 PM
However, doesn't the luck increase exponentially rather than evenly, such that a transaction with 4 coins in, is far more probable than 4 single 1 coin transactions to mint a block?

Yes -- this's close to what I'm trying to do. The luck remains the same with 4 single 1 coin transactions, but after a block has been mined, one of the coin's age will be consumed and it'll not be available for mining -- the rest 3 are still available for mining.

So that increases the effective hashing power exponentially and for a long amount of time.

Of course 4 coins is just an e.g. I've already said --

Quote
The larger the value of A, the closer is the mining power to x as a single coin will be less significant for a large value of A.

In this e.g. A = 4 single 1 coin transactions

And x = approx. time to mine a block when A is received as a single full transaction.
408  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [HOWTO] kill any 100% PoS coins owning less than 1% of all coins. on: May 28, 2014, 05:41:16 PM
Interesting just because i know no one outside of hard core Crypto is going to understand any of that - can i just state it in plain language and you tell me if i far or close to the mark?


PoS  means Proof of ownership like owning a Bond. + interest.

When you hold units of crpyto they age like bonds and mature giving back an "interest" stake -  

DE_logics is basically saying  or theorizing that under certain conditions  if you had:


10 Bonds (ten pieces of interest bearing paper) each worth 1 unit + 1 unit of interest.

you would earn more net interest verses:

One single 10 unit Bond + its interest.

* even if the interest is meant to be equal - i.e the 10 bonds should equal the exact same net return as the single Bond because they are the same units net worth and the interest rate is "fixed" by whole the system.

and in this way, this could be a flaw in PoS  because someone could split up their bonds (something you can do with crypto)  and generate enough interest to control the whole game.



how did i do ?

if its on or close to the mark i will post it back on the other thread as it is relevant -

No no, that's not the vulnerability. That issue got taken care off in the first release of PPC. That's why I tried to explain here --

Quote
Each block gives the miner variable rewards depending on the current difficulty which predicts the probability of the coins to mint a PoS block. A low difficulty means the coins will easily be able to mint PoS blocks, since the number of PoS blocks generated by coins are frequent, the block reward will drop cause the interest rate is capped. In other words, when difficulty is low, the coins will have to wait less to generate a block reward, i.e. the coin will have less age so the block reward will be low. Similarly if the difficulty is high the block reward will increase cause the probability of the coins to make a PoS block will be less, so PoS blocks generated by the coins will be less but the interest rate has to be maintained at 20%; so to compensate for the lower block rate, the block reward will increase.

In the illustrated attack the interest generated will be the same, but the rate of generating blocks will increase dramatically.
409  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [QRK] Quark | cPoW | PC mining | Stability | Hashcows - QRK Payouts on: May 28, 2014, 05:35:51 PM
quark needs more attention and advertising  Embarrassed

It just needs to go pos

Give me any single reason why PoS is good, and I'll prove it's wrong.

Right now the main problem for Quark is completely hoppible situation in mining. Pool coinmine.pl generate from 60% to 70% of blocks and we have roughly 500 i7-class CPUs hashing ATM. So, we could experience a 51% attack virtually at any moment. And even assuming pool operator completely honest it’s very easy for someone to DDOS the location of major hashrate and attack Quark with no more than half a thousand CPUs. It’s a small botnet or a not very large corporate network -- e.g. Microsoft has 1200 000 server nodes, Google -- 800 000. The reason for such a pathetic situation is generally the initial coin distribution model, which generate very few Quarks, not enough to feed profit-seeking commercial miners. Just an other side of one of the greatest advantage of Quark.

Considering this we can conclude that right now Quark is unsecure at all and it would be highly unreasonable to use it for large transactions.

To fight this we of course could use new pools, donation mining, but these are half-measures. We can’t gather more computing power than a large corporate network on a donation basis.

The problem is fundamental and will stay long-term, so the solution must be fundamental. I think the only viable option is Proof-of-Stake (PoS), the form of mining when a probability of block generation increases dramatically with increase of coins in the wallet of miner. TO day this technology has already proven itself with a several years of operating in probably a hundred of coins. I know no serious issues reported or acknowledged security concerns.

Moreover, PoS is viable economically, as it reward long-term coin supportes and provide income on capital. Also PoS stimulate people to maintain full nodes which favorably affects network integrity and security.

Still, PoS is not ideal because it give a significant share of block and coin generation to coin bags with large wallets. But it could be adjusted to reduce such factor. For example the network could provide even tiny amount of coins generated this way and the process will be still continuing since the costs is almost zero. Or amount of PoS generated coins and/or probability of block finding may be depend nonlinear from wallet. Anyway we could find some intelligent and economically justified solution.

I believe the community must reach a consensus on this matter. We can’t build a succesful coin without an appropriate security basis. And we need to prove the world that we are able to handle such security problems.

As of now Quark gets more secure if more people mine, but there is almost nothing to mine with a 1 quark reward. It has a fundamental flaw. Quarks developer made a mistake to fasten the block halving to 1 per block in 6 months. Thats when the majority of the supporters left. Would those 6 months be 50-100 years then quark would have been top 3 in market cap.

You may not agree, but would be better if you would gave a suggestion also.

As you've stated, large block rewards increases inflation. What you see right now is the future of Bitcoin. This's what happens when you rely on TX fee.

Quote
It encourages holding the coins as investment, avoiding it's circulation, i.e. true use as a cryptocurrency. Then worst -- PoS looks at the coin age; the longer you're holding a large amount of cryptocurrency, the higher the chance of mining a block, which further reduces chance of circulation. However if the profits proof of stake is giving you is negligible, then we may nullify this disadvantage.

PoS is more vulnerable to 51%

Quote
Following this article --
         
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=604716
         
A higher degree of PoS means more vulnerabilities. PoS coins will not get any score in 51% protection.
         
Apart from this, you need to run a full node in order for the wallet to mine blocks based on PoS and it should be up always; how many people will do that? (especially when the interest rate is low)? When these coins will be made popular, 90% people will run light weight wallets giving power to the hands of these 10% (PoS difficulty will be low in this case cause the no. of people mining is less). Yes it is true, like with PoW the distribution of mining power will shift towards more professional miners who'll hold large amount of coins, but if the interest rate is low, they rather sell their coins to invest in real world schemes which provides more profits than this crypto, as an advantage they'll have lower risk cause the crypto market is very volatile.
         
In case of PoW, power will may be in the hands of 5% (lower no. of people than PoW) but they'll have a lot of hashing power which if compared to the amount of coins held by these 10% is a much higher value increasing the difficulty in comparison to PoS, which results in higher comparative difficulty for PoW.  As compared to PoW, acquiring enough coins to do a 51% is easier (at these low difficulty and especially when interest rate is low.).

Even without the stated vulnerability.

The cost of an attack is lower.

Maybe the quark foundation can do something about it distributing the hashing power across pools.

Another solution is enforcing TX fee. That way Quarks will be the 1st currency to rely that much on TX fee.

Yet another one is a better difficulty retarget algo --

Quote
If a crypto has fast difficulty re-targets, it's difficulty to do a 51% attack, cause in the forked chain the difficulty will increase rapidly and will soon reach the target block times, the block time of the main chain will be the same, making a 51% attack impossible.
            
If the main chain's difficulty was high cause of the attacker's majority hashing power, it'll drop to sustain a block interval equal to the attacker's fork chain.
410  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] Scrypt-N - 4th Place on Mintpal on: May 28, 2014, 05:06:10 PM
Now, I would like a few worlds from the desperate nerd who sold millions of ENCs at 4 satoshis a few days ago.

Patience pays off.
411  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DOUG] Dougcoin - Quark based | KGW | 10240 CPB | OpenSSL-1.0.1g on: May 28, 2014, 04:57:16 PM
As we can see, the dev persists and that's all what's needed for a successful coin. It's specs are good already.

@dev

Maybe you can make a game like Entropycoin did which's a hit.
412  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Quark investors - Quark information on cycles and the push to move towards PoS. on: May 28, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
What about this?
413  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: <ANN><WIFI>WIFIcoin<X11><3day POW><5%POS><NO-PREMINE><NO-IPO> on: May 27, 2014, 05:16:50 PM
How to kill this coin.
414  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] Scrypt-N - 5th Place on Mintpal on: May 27, 2014, 06:40:04 AM
Prices will surge after Scrypt ASIC is out.

There may be a little bump in SHA256 coins cause now they're in the same league.
415  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: RE[ANN][LDC] Leadcoin | Community takeover | Fast | Cheap | Low Diff on: May 27, 2014, 06:39:59 AM
How about ASIC resistant algo? X11 sounds good. Quark is better, but slow on GPU (and FPGA).
416  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] Scrypt-N - 6th Place on Mintpal on: May 27, 2014, 06:09:00 AM
800 satoshi? I don't think so, sorry Grin

In my opinion it's impossible to find someone who sell so cheap.

+1
417  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [HOWTO] kill any 100% PoS coins owning less than 1% of all coins. on: May 27, 2014, 03:30:16 AM
Interesting, can others more experienced confirm? Will this also apply to hybrid PoS/PoW?

Agreed this needs more discussion.

I don't think anyone knows how secure 100% POS is based on all the peercointalk forum posts i've read

Perhaps can check with Jutarul?

Ref: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131901.0

Looks like this vulnerability is known since December.

Humm... I think this attack is different. The vulnerability in this thread cannot be fixed like this. The design of the coin has to be changed for it to be fixed.

The link just increases the no. of trials the wallet does to generate a valid block, were as this increases the probability of a block by splitting the stake.
418  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [QRK] Quark | cPoW | PC mining | Stability | Hashcows - QRK Payouts on: May 27, 2014, 03:24:29 AM
quark needs more attention and advertising  Embarrassed

It just needs to go pos

Give me any single reason why PoS is good, and I'll prove it's wrong.
419  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] EntropyCoin [ENC] on: May 26, 2014, 06:37:59 AM
Sorry, I just haven't had a lot of time to dedicate to it. I've been trying to get more pools online, and working on a few other things. Hopefully soon I'll find some time to implement a new one. I do like to 2048 game, but I think it would be challenging to handle payouts with it.

That memory feature (cookies?) of the game should be remove. The game should reset once the page reloads, otherwise we'll have some serious vulnerabilities with that.

So what was your original plan for the rewards?
420  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DOUG] Dougcoin - Quark based | KGW | 10240 CPB | OpenSSL-1.0.1g on: May 26, 2014, 06:31:51 AM
Now 300,000 is too big.
I reached up to 1600  Grin

This need to be fixed bad.

Dev are you listening?

In the mean time, all pools shutdown.
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