Evan. Will you private message me with your phone number. I'd like to make sure that you aren't Tom  . LOL! Just kidding (mostly), but I would like to discuss/know more about the lawyer, and some ways to establish a basis of trust with anyone that wants to join with a claim. There is personal info involved, and understandably, many that would want their property back won't want to disclose their identities so easily. ||bit |
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It wasn't converted.
Where's proof of this? I suggested earlier, if this goes legal, then a discovery may reveal that a conversion was never made. This should be traceable since the wallet ID you sent your funds to was recorded at purchase time. If the discovery is made, then that is the only case where I can imagine people getting back their original BTC - and that is still only my speculation. Otherwise, the price on the website was in USD, and nobody was forced to use BTC to make the purchase. Therefore, you get back the value in USD. In the BFL scenario, it's true that BFL used Bitpay as a middle man exchange. However, in the case with bASIC, Tom acted in the same way as Bitpay. He would only have needed to do an immediate conversion by an exchange on receipt of the BTC. ||bit |
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As someone who has been monitoring #btcfpga since October, I would be absolutely shocked if Agath was Tom. He's been active in the channel the whole time and they talk nothing alike.
I have no proof that Agath isn't Tom, but for the two to be the same would require Tom be incredibly capable, disciplined and forward looking. Since Tom doesn't appear to be any of those things, I don't think he could keep up a deception like that for months for no real benefit. More likely Tom is still lurking in his channel and has been watching as people are planning their legal action.
Assuming this agath is the same I know from IRC, the numbers posted would be perfectly reasonable. He goes under a different and well-respected nick at bitcointalk and knowing his business, ordering 100 bASICs from Tom and getting them refunded now is plausible. It is time for this community to leave the trauma behind and come down to a healthy trust level where not everyone entering new is immediately accused of being a liar or scammer. I can respect that notion. I personally don't suspect that agath is Tom. But seeing a little more proof of an actual refund would be nice, considering Tom's complete silence on the matter. My post to MrTeal was simply to suggest that the possibility of agath being Tom was not improbable on the basis that it would require Tom to have high levels of cunning, discipline etc.. ||bit |
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In his last email (3 february, I never received any other) he was stating that he is going to refund everyone, that he hasn't any bitcoin, but he was trying to buy them at the best price, and that it would have taken some time. These were his words, and at this time I could say he's really trying to refund everyone.
In response to: "that he hasn't any bitcoin, but he was trying to buy them at the best price". That seems ridiculous. If you have the money to refund someone, the best exchange price to transfer the value will always be the present exchange price. There is no waiting for a "better price". There are only two obvious reason that I can think of to want to look for a "better price": (1) You lost the customers money, and want to buy low and distribute refunds when it is higher price. (2) You want to try to profit off of other people's money on cycles or bull trends while you have it. ||bit |
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As someone who has been monitoring #btcfpga since October, I would be absolutely shocked if Agath was Tom. He's been active in the channel the whole time and they talk nothing alike.
I have no proof that Agath isn't Tom, but for the two to be the same would require Tom be incredibly capable, disciplined and forward looking. Since Tom doesn't appear to be any of those things, I don't think he could keep up a deception like that for months for no real benefit. More likely Tom is still lurking in his channel and has been watching as people are planning their legal action.
I'm not making a positive claim that agath is Tom. But just countering the need that such a possibility would require a super Tom.  Name: cablepair [a.k.a. Tom]Posts: 2308 Position: VIP Date Registered: April 30, 2011, 11:40:41 PM Last Active: January 23, 2013, 04:16:33 AMName: agath Posts: 11 Position: Jr. Member Date Registered: January 24, 2013, 10:00:12 AMLast Active: Today at 06:15:34 AM ||bit |
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Thomas has finally sent his refund through a wire transfer.
It took 2 weeks to arrive, and there was a total lack of communication. Thomas didn't give me any evidence about the bank order, and I was thinking he lied. But I just checked on the account and it has arrived.
In his last email (3 february, I never received any other) he was stating that he is going to refund everyone, that he hasn't any bitcoin, but he was trying to buy them at the best price, and that it would have taken some time. These were his words, and at this time I could say he's really trying to refund everyone.
Don't lose your hope, probably Tom is not that bad guy that he tries to appear.
Print the document. Black out your name & bank details. Leave all of Tom's origin information. Scan the document. Upload and post the wire transfer to be seen in this thread. ||bit |
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mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.
The product was priced in USD. You did not have to pay him in BTC. If he took BTC from people, and turned them into USD, then payback will almost certainly be in USD. My opinion is that if it can be proven that he never converted the BTC to USD, then there might be another argument there to recover original BTC. BUT unless that is discovered in the legal process, then plaintiffs (victims making charges against bASIC) probably can't initially ask for BTC. Unless, maybe it can be described & determined as "property" meant for exchange, or as some other kind of legalese. But if some paid in dollars and others in BTC, then this could become an administrative headache. So, to keep the lawyer sane, it might need to be simplified (e.g. everyone claims USD). Afterall, there are already about 80 people that have taken the poll that they have a claim against bASIC. ||bit |
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I will write it in a new topic, so it will be more visible to everyone.
Thanks. If it's true, then that is good for you. But until Tom comes out publicly and defines an acceptable/reasonable plan to pay everyone of the people he took property from, then this thread will remain. And the topic discussed is regarding a legal response to Tom's business fiasco. ||bit |
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Class action lawsuit would have to be for ALL US clients, meaning we need I think its 70%, (I think its 70%, and i forget if this is number of people or $$$)
EFF Loves to do Ground breaking Litigation and BTC is ground breaking.
Even if we win litigation in the US against him it might not be enforceable if his funds are not in an US institution, but we could seriously make his life Difficult, to use financial institutions.
Also Damages CAN NOT BE IN BTC WE MUST USE USD DAMAGES, BASED ON THE CONVERSION RATE or TRADE IN VALUE AT THE TIME OF FRAUD.... Not Today's Current MTGox Values. Or will be laughed out of court.
We Collectively need to stop referring to the BTC we lost, and instead use the real world value in USD of our damages.
Thanks Evans. How could the EFF help exactly? Would their services be pro bono? Explain what you mean about the all US clients part? Seems there should also be a way in this to compensate non US persons. I wouldn't want to see half of the clients left out. About BTC only, it seems to me that if Tom never sold the bitcoins, AND if bitcoins are referred to it as simply "property", then it might be no different than saying Tom has accepted any kind of property, and that he would have to return the property. But you might be right, and the point is noted. In either case, we still need a lawyer to consult directly with to describe the options and define a pathway. Did you have a chance to do any canvassing? BTW: there is a poster in this thread that will get a free legal consultation. He is asking for questions he can ask during the consultation. If you have the chance, consider what questions he can ask and post them here if you have time. Thanks again. ||bit |
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Anyone with some sense of what is needed from a lawyer, feel free to search for possible lawyers (online) in any nearby cities. A couple persons in the thread are already looking. But more eyes searching for possibilities won't hurt. For example: Starting looking in Fulton. Then some relatively near cities like Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany, and New York City. Or other nearby locations: http://goo.gl/maps/yQiiGSeems to me there has to be a lawyer somewhere in New York.  Outside New York seems possible, since property was traded across state and international borders. So, it seems it could be a federal case, if any. ||bit |
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8 people also chose $22,000 when that was the largest option.  Right. That is why I added the greater than option. I was surprised there were that many at $22k. It's possible one or more could be a kind of wiseguy just picking the highest number, but I left it open. At least we can get an idea on the magnitude. Even without those high numbers the losses among the less questionable are about $150k. And this is possibly the tip of an iceberg. Afterall, to the best of my recollection, Tom said he had something like a thousand or more refunds to process. ||bit |
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1) Very interested, I have about $3300 invested. I'm from EU as well.
Would be interested in a percentage deal as well (debt collectors with commission only in case of success).
2) I think it's enough if we just add the poll numbers/claims in posts as a first step.
3) Evidence will consist mainly of emails, I have the site pages saved, but they were probably modified in the meantime.
I believe you should update your first post as we go on, or maybe we could use a wiki or so to centralize all answers/actions.
I also believe there should a section:
5) Are there any other (better or not) ways of settling this in a different way ? What I'm thinking of:
- simply someone to talk to Tom on behalf of the group and see what's really happening
- an agency for consumer protection or something like this (small claims court ? )
- debt collection company
- private investigator/debt collector
I'll update the post, but no guarantee's on an continual accurate update. ||bit |
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Anyone from BFL:
Consider contributing to any legal cost's. Likely many of those that would recover funds will purchase your products.
So far, the poll indicates more than $300,000 in losses. Not a trivial amount.
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Hopefully something gets done, though I'm not sure how much there is to recover. I'm only out about $100 on currency conversion fees for my CC order, but as someone who was pretty active around BTCFPGA I feel bad for everyone that lost their BTC in this sinkhole.
This could actually be a pretty important legal precedent for BTC if someone does sue Tom, as it's a relatively straightforward case. Tom agreed to sell a physical product denominated in USD, and accepted BTC as a payment method. He never delivered, and hasn't refunded the money or responded to request to. Everyone would have to accept that any judgement would probably be in USD, but given the low burden of proof in small claims court I'd be surprised if a judge didn't give a judgement against Tom.
If it comes down to it, his bitcoin wallet will serve as evidence of if/when he traded bitcoins sent to him. I'd bet that a lawyer will push to argue that Tom pays any gains to victims if he is still holding them in any other wallets. Maybe BFL will subsidize a lawyer. Since many of those funds recovered may turn around to purchasing BFL products.  ||bit |
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With 17k it makes sense to visit Tom and convince him to pay back your bitcoins. I think chances are much better with a personal approach than using the legal system. It's much harder to deny refund to an angry person in front of you than to somebody that is far away. Maybe a bounty on Tom's head is the right way to go?!
Not sure what legal recourse will yield, but we should check it out... I have access to free consultation (limited) via work program, I'll report back regarding suggestions make... I really like the idea of taking to Tom in person, just blows my mind that he's said nothing (again, waiting for this to go away) regarding the outstanding refunds. Thanks. Where are you located if you don't mind answering? or Are you located in New York or near there? ||bit |
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=138866.0One shiny BTC should get a comprehensive report at the current BTC price. It might be worthwhile to also look into BTCFPGA and see if it's an LLC, and if Tom controls any other companies with formal registrations. Thanks Teal. This might be helpful. Still monitoring for interest first. Looks like a lot of lurkers considering the poll numbers. ||bit |
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I have some legal training in the US, I am more than willing to help canvas lawyers for you guys, Tom is a Scammer and should be brought to justice.
This said finding a lawyer to deal with this case will be difficult.
The Case that will help us all is a international case tho, from I think Holland where a judge rules that WoW gold (a digital currency) has real world monetary value, after some school yard bullies beat up a kid after school for his account.
Ideally we need to file this where the majority of the fraud happened, eg. Where Tom's home is or Place of business. Unless we have a majority of users that all lived in one Metro area, (like NYC or Dallas or somewhere).
Another idea might be to see if anyone with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, is a bit coiner, and see if we can get them involved as this would be ground breaking and new case law. Fhe biggest foreseeable issue is showing to a judge to award damaged that any Bitcoin, transactions we did with Tom have actual real world value.
Thanks. Those sound like some good ideas. Thanks for offering to do some canvasing. Please do so, and let us know if you find someone promising. The most I looked were around Fulton New York. One lawyer I saw seemed promising, but I noticed he was a defense lawyer. Any victims of this that are stateside, and interested, let us know your metropolitan area. I might post a new survey above to screen for members in metro areas soon. About the EFF. Wouldn't it be easy to prove to a judge that bitcoin has real value by showing the historical price & trade volume on MtGox? Never-the-less, if anyone is a member, let us know so that can be considered. ||bit |
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