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1101  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [PROPOSAL] The ticker and the hole (path to bitcoins worth $1M each) on: August 15, 2011, 05:07:53 PM

Man I love this forum. So many smart people . . .

You've got it exactly. More below . . .


Thank you, but what you write below is different from my proposal (which is basically reservecoin combined with the stablecoin destruction method).


Quite true. May the best protocol win Smiley
1102  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Tradehill Checks not arriving as promised on: August 15, 2011, 04:09:43 PM
I have heard from reliable sources that TradeHill is working hard on new USD deposit methods. They are aware that Paxum is not ideal for most people.

I'm guessing they jumped to Paxum as a stopgap, and with the assumption that other exchanges might not be able to do Dwolla anymore, so Paxum would be the best available option for every exchange.
1103  Economy / Marketplace / Re: [ANNOUNCE] ExchB now lets you buy Bitcoins with cash today via 15,000 locations on: August 15, 2011, 03:50:29 PM
This site says they take personal checks.

How can they possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?

Cash clears when we verify your e-mail and check deposits typically clear overnight.

I'm assuming it's a calculated risk ExchB is willing to take.  I'm also assuming the number of people committing check fraud by physically going into a bank with extensive video surveillance would be less than... Well... What Dwolla ran into with ACH's.  --  If you're willing to go into a bank to commit check fraud by depositing into an account... You've got balls.

Cheers,
Kermee

That's a very good point Kermee.

Still, I would feel better if the exchange only allowed cash deposits at the bank locations. There's always going to be somebody who is willing to grow a huge beard, travels three states north (to someplace where wearing a bulky coat and stocking cap won't attract attention, make a phony check deposit, drive back, shave the beard, shed the clothes (all of them), buy some bitcoins, and transfer them out of the exchange.
1104  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [PROPOSAL] The ticker and the hole (path to bitcoins worth $1M each) on: August 15, 2011, 03:35:31 PM
Why?  In order to be able to sell it for 1USD, someone must be willing to physically give you 1USD for it.  Who is going to do that?  What if noone wants to pay 1USD for them?  Then they are worthless.

This was explained pretty clearly in your other threads.. you can't do things like this without a trusted person actually holding the assets.  It should be pretty easy to understand.

The concept is quite easy to understand. My plans (similar to Morpheus' goldcoin/stablecoin proposal) depends on people being willing to pay the current bitcoin value of the underlying asset for a token representing that asset. The concept is similar to cash-settled futures, which also track commodity prices without ever actually delivering the product.

Ok, I think I got it.
This is basically like stablecoin being the only difference that you prevent the price to go too high by other mean. Instead of create inflation and give the new coins to the miners, the system would sell newly created coins in exchange of bitcoins being destroyed at a slightly higher price than the target.
You have an exchange of usdcoins for bitcoins inside the chain to track the btc/usdc rate and you would import the btc/usd rate using the same method that stablecoin uses so you can calculate the bitcoin target price.

Is it your idea?
If so...
I don't like the idea of destroying bitcoins and I don't think many people in the forum will. Also you would eventually destroy all the bitcoins in which your system relies. Can't the bitcoins just go to your miners?

Why not put them (for this you can't use bitcoin but some form of escrowcoin) in a reserve (see reserveCoin) and allow to sell their usdc to the system at a slightly higher price than the target? You cannot warranty the solvency of the reserve, but it would prevent the price from dropping for more time until you have to rely on destructive fees/demurrage for that.

Note: I've removed the ticker and restored the less centralized "reporting exchange prices by miners". Also I hope you have forgotten the "messaging through value" thing.

Man I love this forum. So many smart people . . .

You've got it exactly. More below . . .

I don't really trust any protocol that relies on "burning" bitcoins. How do I know that the "burner" address really is an invalid address? It is possible to have an address made up of a human-readable string just by chance.

Edit: I know it is unlikely, but it would make deliberate address collisions much worse if they ever become computationally feasable.


Personally, I HATE the idea of destroying bitcoins - they are so beautiful. The problem I have is who to give these bitcoins to. My first choice is myself of course, but that would be silly - nobody would trust me not to buy massive amounts of the commodity tokens from myself and flood the market. If I give the bitcoins to the miners, then they can do the same thing (spend unlimited bitcoins to themselves, getting free tokens). The perfect solution is to split the bitcoins evenly among everyone who holds bitcoins. It turns out that destroying bitcoins does exactly that - it makes everybody else's bitcoins a little more valuable.

The problem with my idea as discussed so far is that I had an unlimited number of tokens for sale, which allowed anyone receiving bitcoins in exchange for newly minted tokens to create infinite "wealth". Over the weekend I've pondered this question, and I think I have a couple better ways to distribute these goldcoins, oilcoins, etc.

1) The first option is to do what morpheus described (and what jtimon suggested above) and give the tokens to miners. A number of the new coins could be released to the address of the most recent miner with each new block. The number of new coins would be determined by the new protocol rules, and they would be "for sale" at a price also determined by the protocol rules. The miner would not have to be participating in this new protocol. Somebody would just send bitcoins to buy the tokens he doesn't know he is selling, and he would be very surprised Smiley

The only problem with that is, why would anyone run a ticker?

2) The second option makes the person running the ticker and the hole very, very rich (and I like that thought). The tokens would be released as described in 1), but to the hole instead of the miners. People would buy these new coins as they became available by sending bitcoins to the hole. However, the new coins would NOT be unlimited. They would be released in amounts and at prices determined by the protocol.

But there's a problem with that idea too - the person running the ticker and hole might decide to buy every coin as it became available, artificially limiting supply and making himself even richer.

My current best idea is to combine 1) and 2) - distributing some of the new coins to the miners, and some to the hole. My instinct is to give more to the miners to make sure that plenty of coins make it into circulation. Perhaps 75% to the miners and 25% to the hole.

I'm worried however that someone running the ticker/hole would then have a perverse incentive to mine (so that they could control more coins, limit the supply, and cause more coins to be released . . . to them). One person controlling a large portion of the coins seems dangerous, since they could flood the market or starve the market at their whim. Maybe the split should be more like 90/10.

Finally, I am starting to lean towards using a software PID controller to keep the new currency at the target price (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller). I work with PID loops all the time in my day job (autopilot software, temperature control chambers), so I am very familiar with how they work.

P = Proportional. This just means that the corrective action taken by the protocol is proportional to the price error. If the price is a little high, the protocol releases 10 new coins. If the price is a lot high, the protocol releases 100 new coins. Similarly, if the price is a little low, the protocol might destroy 0.1% of the new currency per transaction. If the price is a lot low, the protocol might destroy 1% of the new currency per transaction.

I = Integral (what do we do if proportional correction isn't working?). The integral term takes care of steady-state error. That is, what do we do if the price is ALWAYS a little too high? The integral term would slowly "wind up", causing more and more coins to be released until the price finally came down to the target. At this point, the integral term starts unwinding, but usually overshoots the target by a large amount (driving the price too low). Similarly, if the price is always too low, the integral term winds up in the other direction, slowly increasing the % of coins destroyed in each transaction until we reach the target. The I term is the most important one for this application, because it is the guarantee that we will eventually get to the target.

D = Differential (oh crap we're gonna overshoot!). The differential term resists ANY short-term movement. Even if the price is way too high, a sudden price drop would cause the differential term to shut off the flow of new coins temporarily. Similarly, a sudden price spike would cause the D term to release a lot of coins all at once.

Obviously we prefer generating coins to destroying them, so the PID controller would have to be biased positive, being stingy with new coin releases, and aggressive at cutting back on the new coin supply when the price starts dropping.

1105  Economy / Services / Re: [GIG] Earn BTC for unghosting craigslist ads on: August 15, 2011, 02:10:29 PM
I'm available for this.  I have an IP in the U.S.   I also have access to an IP in Sweden.

Edit:
Didn't look at the last post time.  Didn't mean to res this topic.  I'll PM the OP.

Just got this PM today:

Are you still doing those Craigslist ads?

I am still paying people for this service. I will post in this thread if I ever stop. Note that a U.S. or Canadian phone number is required.
1106  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Exchangebitcoins.com on: August 12, 2011, 09:34:21 PM
I dont know how they are taking the Wells Fargo checks. But I do see that they are using ING P2P and that service doesn't let you send unless they secure the funds from your account first. So, I can see how that is safe for them to accept. I think that's a great idea - it's a very creative use of the ING P2P

I bet you a shiny nickel that if somebody hacked my ING account and sent money to him, I could report it to ING and they could claw the money back after the bitcoins were long gone!
1107  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [PROPOSAL] The ticker and the hole (path to bitcoins worth $1M each) on: August 12, 2011, 09:25:45 PM
Have you considered using OpenTransactions in addition to bitcoin?  OpenTransactions allows an issuing party to issue certificates which can be traded.  It is quite different from bitcoin but I believe it complements it well, especially in a scenario like you are attempting to construct.

It has been suggested elsewhere on this forum, but I'm not sure if you have seen it or thought about it.

I have to admit I just don't understand Open Transactions. I've read all about them, but I'm apparently too dense to see how they could do what I want (decentralized currency/commodity/stock trading). The bitcoin protocol can definitely do it, but I'm continually changing the implementation details, trying to get something easy to implement, cause I'm lazy.
1108  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Exchangebitcoins.com on: August 12, 2011, 09:22:36 PM
I've e-mailed back and forth with David a few times, done hundreds of trades there, made several Dwolla deposits/withdrawals back when they supported it.

Since they quit taking Dwolla, he's sent me several checks (all of which arrived within 3-4 days, and were good).  So I feel pretty confident about them.

I'm not worried about HIS personal checks. I'm just shocked that he is ACCEPTING them! Anybody know how he is doing that without getting ripped off by fraudulent checks??
1109  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Tradehill Checks not arriving as promised on: August 12, 2011, 09:06:54 PM
I just found out that www.exchangebitcoins.com claims to accept personal checks! You can literally walk into any Wells Fargo or Chase branch and deposit cash or check, send them a copy of the receipt, and have funds deposited the next day.

This seems totally impossible, given all the check fraud out there, but if it is actually possible, TradeHill needs to do it!!
1110  Economy / Marketplace / Re: [ANNOUNCE] ExchB now lets you buy Bitcoins with cash today via 15,000 locations on: August 12, 2011, 09:02:55 PM
This site says they take personal checks.

How can they possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?
1111  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ExchangeBitcoins.com: A new Bitcoin exchange beta on: August 12, 2011, 09:01:59 PM
This site says they take personal checks.

How can they possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?
1112  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Has anybody used ExchangeBitcoins.com on: August 12, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
This site says they take personal checks.

How can they possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?
1113  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Exchangebitcoins.com on: August 12, 2011, 08:58:38 PM
This site says they take personal checks.

How can they possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?
1114  Economy / Marketplace / Re: ExchangeBitcoins.com: A new Bitcoin exchange now open on: August 12, 2011, 08:57:34 PM
This site says they take personal checks?!  Shocked

How can you possibly do that with all the check fraud out there? What happens if somebody deposits a stolen check, then runs off with a bunch of bitcoins?
1115  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Dwolla vs Paxum & MtGox vs Tradehill - for US bitcoiners on: August 12, 2011, 08:15:19 PM
Postal Money orders aren't reversible. You can also cash them at the post office AFAIK. 2nd day Priority mail is fairly cheap.
I'd say Western Union but their fees are ridiculous but they are less than $50 that Paxum wants for a wire transfer.
I don't know much about MoneyGram.

USD Volume on TradeHill is drying up like a cowpie in August because Paxum charges $5 to get money into their system, so all the USD is going through Dwolla into MtGox Sad

MtGox may be taking losses from Dwolla reversals but not telling anyone about it . . .

I wonder how the "deposit cash at your local X bank" system works, and what fees are involved. I haven't been able to find anything describing it.

I think postal money orders can actually be cashed for U.S. Currency at a post office? Not sure if there is a limit on how many of these one person can cash:

https://www.usps.com/shop/money-orders.htm

Update: using postal money orders is a good way to get investigated for money laundering:
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/pubs/ar01_06.pdf
1116  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Are TradeHill withdrawals happening? on: August 12, 2011, 07:24:11 PM
Getting money out is easy. I'm more worried about people being able to get money IN.

Tradehill: when are you going to get a cheaper way to get USD into the exchange? USD Volume is drying up like a cowpie in August because Paxum charges $5 to get money into their system, so all the USD is going through Dwolla into MtGox Sad

I know Dwolla screwed you guys, and maybe MtGox is just eating similar losses and not telling anyone, but do you have a cheaper option coming??
1117  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Tradehill Checks not arriving as promised on: August 12, 2011, 07:19:33 PM
Checks are fine for getting money out, but I am concerned about getting money IN.

Tradehill: when are you going to get a cheaper way to get USD into the exchange? USD Volume is drying up like a cowpie in august because Paxum charges $5 to get money into their system, so all the USD is going through Dwolla into MtGox Sad

I know Dwolla screwed you guys, and maybe MtGox is just eating similar losses and not telling anyone, but do you have a cheaper option coming??
1118  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin scraped pool luck data/graphics on: August 12, 2011, 05:51:56 PM
My personal theory is that slush has the best pool for people who aren't pool-hopping. My guess is that the uneven luck distribution for other pools is a result of pool-hoppers making more on short blocks at the expense of non-pool hoppers.

slush has an algorithm that weights recent work higher than older work, which means that pool hopping doesn't get you anything. Other pools don't do this, to my knowledge.
1119  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [PROPOSAL] The ticker and the hole (path to bitcoins worth $1M each) on: August 12, 2011, 05:25:56 PM
While running thought experiments on how this would work, I have discovered a flaw in my proposal:

Imagine that the ticker for gold is not updated for 8 hours for some reason. During that 8 hours, the price of gold spikes 30%. During the time when the ticker is not updated, it would be possible to buy goldcoins at a 30% discount by destroying bitcoins, even though most users would not be selling at that price.

This method of coin creation is flawed, and I will have to contemplate how to better distribute these coins in a more slow and limited way, allowing prices to fluctuate much further from the ticker.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
1120  Bitcoin / Press / Re: Bitcoin press hits, notable sources on: August 12, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
I haven't seen this one posted here yet:

http://flipthemedia.com/index.php/2011/08/bitcoin-and-the-future-of-digital-currency/comment-page-1/#comment-7124

Quote
A reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by Bitcoin Swami.

Can you please stop spamming every dam article jeez.

Every article is an opportunity for new users to find out about bitcoin. I want to make sure they have the best experience possible. That best experience can currently be found at TradeHill, IMHO. I make almost nothing from Tradehill referrals, so any such comments are out of the goodness of my heart, combined with the evilness of my heart (since I have some troll blood in me, and enjoy annoying people).
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