I see you crossed me out!  *HURT* 

I bet you 5 BTC I can move any amount of BTC on chain with absolutely no problems, most likely in the next block.

Choose your words more carefully.

How is it possible you have been here this long and not got it yet?

Bitcoin fees are going to just get higher, along with price, along with the size of the transactions, both in bytes as well as value.

There is no other way for it to work.  Transactions are going to use different tech with different tradeoffs.  And yes the different tech can just be LTC or ETH.  But that is like using a shop vac to empty your home vacuum cleaner.  Then taking the shop vac to the car wash and using one of theirs to empty it.

We are not solving the "problem" we are kicking the can down the road.

Luckily it's not a problem.  It's a feature.  One that enables decentralized freedom money.

Totally agree with the LN node part.  You need to enjoy hitting yourself in the head with a brick if you want to run a production class node.  It's not that it is impossible, it's just a serious endeavor.  Like mining, really.

But luckily you can run a non custodial lightning wallet as an end user with about the same difficulty as using a Bitcoin wallet.  (And custodial wallets are almost easier than a regular bitcoin wallet...) 

I would only caution, that though I agree Electrum is a fantastic bitcoin wallet, the last time I looked at it's lightning implementation it was a lot trickier and a bit kludgy compared to Breez as well as a few others.  But I will spin up lightning in electrum again in a recent release to see if they have smoothed it out yet.  Maybe they have.

Dave answered your question exactly as I would have, down to the coffee.

Oh.  Also Fillippone's "Lightning Observer" thread is worth the time if you decide to fall all the way down the rabbit hole.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5348270.0

And one last thing.  I have used every lightning network wallet that has ever been made (well... probably?) and I have also run both major lightning network nodes (LND and CL) since 2019.  I know the stuff inside and out.  I have even recovered nodes that have crahsed and burned due to hardware failure.  I am glad to help or consult with you on any level needed if you have any questions or curiosities.   Here or by PM, or SMS or even a phone call (though I hate phones). 

And I am not trying to suggest you run a node or do anything more than just use the lightning network in the way best for you.  I believe fees are going to follow a trajectory much like the price and hashrate has.  So doing mining as you do getting used to layer 2 strategies is going to become more and more important. 

I am also no slouch when it comes to Liquid, although neither are you since it is just Bitcoin's codebase (with part of Monero's privacy).

Anyway... do not hesitate.

Congrats on learning to use the lightning network.  It is currently Bitcoin's best scaling layer.  And it works fairly well nowadays.  Here are some small tips.

1.  Several have mentioned Breez.  You do not have to go to the trouble of running a node (though breez actually does run one on your phone).  Breez works well, and is at least as easy as the things you have done so far.  You just have to let it update to the network, then you can send it lightning transactions ad YOU actually hold the sats.

2.  If you have a need to trade into or out of BTC/lightning/Liquid this is a good little non custodial exchange with great prices:  https://boltz.exchange/

3.  Wallet of Satoshi.  It is custodial, but it is a great way to get used to doing lightning to and from your phone and gives you a lightning address.  Mine is cleanlisa67@walletofsatoshi.com.  Sending to and from a lightning address is as easy as using email.

4.  coinos.io (and classic.coinos.io)  are great online custodial wallets with the ability to change from LN/BTC/Liquid.


Best of luck experimemting with lightning.  It is the future.  Don;t listen to franky, he is always mad.

Very cool!

Ugh.  Electrum CAN do lightning.  But do not start there.  It's complicated and kludgey (Still such a great on chain wallet).

Non Custodial: Breez
Custodial: Wallet of Satoshi
Coming soon: Green

I mention WoS just because it is the drop dead easiest, best working wallet available.  But custodial wallets run an ever increasing risk of getting frozen by regulators.

I feel like Breez works the best for the non-custodial wallets, but it requires a little patience up front.

Green should get interesting as they are a very easy to use wallet and are JUST rolling out lightning.

You sound a lot like FUD.

Using LTC and DOGE as a makeshift Layer 2 is certainly a good plan.  For now.  I just paid some webhosting bills for one of my BTC nodes using LTC.  The problem is they have the exact same issue as Bitcoin in the end.  This plan will not work forever.  If everyone starts using Litecoin for little purchases then the fees will explode.

I will resist going into the reason why just making the block size larger will also not work.  But altcoins built on the Bitcoin codebase will eventually fall under their own weight.  Or their fees will go just as high (or conceivably higher).

We have several scaling methods emerging that solve some of the problems of trying to use Layer 1 chains.

Lightning is way better than LTC/Doge because it is working as a completely different network with different tradeoffs from Bitcoin.  We can do literally billions of transactions on Lightning and keep no central permanent database of those transactions.  So no bloated blockchain to drag around, and to cause centralization in the end.  Also this adds some privacy.

Liquid is a blockchain model that is run by people who can do enterprise level file storage, bandwidth and compute (that is if anyone ever uses it).  This blockchain is somewhat centralized by design, and the benefit is the people who run it are incentivized to offer a good fee to do transactions on it.  It has the potential to obsolete both LTC/Doge and ETH.  Because the tradeoffs ALLOW for a giant blockchain.  But we still have the base layer to come home to.

Other scaling projects will emerge, as well as forks of the above two.  But those are the ones that are ready for action today.

I am aware that neither of these two solutions is adopted enough to use in all cases.  This is why I did not web hosting transaction in LTC.  But the sooner the better... because the other plan just doesn't work.  It can't scale.

Well it might be enough to answer the question for a lot of people still wondering where miners will get their fees in the end.

Now they just need to work out why will people still be transacting in the future when fees are always so high?  

Turns out it is the same reason as why they do now... but it's OK if they need to work through it.

It's been a while since I posted a "Saturday Long Read", so allow me to hit you with this little one...



In hindsight, it was inevitable.
We are all hyped up over the ETFs.  As usual we are fixated on something important while we miss the thing that really is the MOST important.  Remember Baakt?  Or is it Bakkt?  Does anyone even know? That was going to launch us into HYPERBITCOINIZATION!  And here we are again... this cycle's hype is ETFs!  Wait... ummm didn't we also try this one before?  It's like the China bans.  We will gladly lap up the same narratives over and over.  Well ETFs ARE coming.  Someday.  Eventually.  But Blackrock, and the others are not the only ones playing.  The powerful people had to figure out Bitcoin eventually, and now the race is on to define who controls the most of it.  That is assuming Blackrock, and the Fed are not mounting a fantastic FUD campaign against Bitcoin.  And I'd estimate there is a 20% chance that is exactly what they are doing.  The reason I say 20 instead of zero is they hate bitcoin at least enough to try this.  The reason I say 20 instead of 100 is these people are not generally dumb.  You do not get to where they are being dumb.  They are in control of the Earth, and they have seen what Bitcoin is.  I think they are smart enough to know they can't stop it.  So the objective from this point is to CONTROL it.  And to do that, in the style they are most accustomed to they must own so much of it that it is easier to buy their product than the real thing.  Make no mistake.  People buying into the Blackrock product (or Fidelity, or ...) are putting 100% trust  and control into the hands of the owners of those funds.  And they will issue "shares"  or "coins" or whatever they want to call it that represent a certain amount of the bitcoin they hold, and thus they can get right back to printing as they always have.  I can try to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will not try their old tricks.  But I am never able to see it as remotely possible.

So that is what we are cheering for.  And look!  I am not saying that it is all bad.  Nor am I saying that it won't set off the rocket of price appreciation.  At least for a while.  The fact of the matter is MOST Earthlings are going to need help.  AND Layer 1, on-chain transactions are going to be expensive as fuck.  The average Joe needs help.  Frankly, even the above average Lisa needs help.  

Seriously... LUKE DASHJR has his coins stolen.

So, it turns out Hal was right again.  We are going to need Bitcoin Banks.  And that is exactly what we are seeing the formation of.  And by the way... I have never thought exchanges were really "bitcoin banks".  Maybe the proto-banks.  But if you are paying attention you can see the tip of the real spear making it's way into the spotlight.

Old dogs... new tricks.
The big exchanges are all conveniently being dragged into the litigation they TOTALLY set themselves up for with all the shitcoin nonsense they did over the last 8+ years.  Or they are busy announcing their next NFT series or some other pablum designed to fleece the tiny audience they have been able to gain worldwide.  At the same time other big legacy players in the "bitcoin space" are busy having their databases stolen, or floating a way to get your private keys.  But at least Ledger is pointed in the right direction macro-strategy wise.  They have entered the race to control the money.  And though their tradeoff is terribly un-nuanced, they are at least realizing where things are going.  Hopefully they improve their strategy.

New Kid on the BLOCK.
If you thought Jack Dorsey was just a lucky nerd to invent "mico-blogging" then what he did with the Cash App should make you reconsider.  But what Block is currently doing tells me that he can see the future.  And don't get me wrong.  I am not fan-boying @jack. He is also throwing his digital hat into the ring of being the best way to hold your Bitcoin. The Bitkey hardware signer is more than a simple signer.  It is also an attempt at creating something your mom or dad could use to hold bitcoin, with SOME sovereignty and a LOT of security.  One interesting thing they have done is set up various forms of redundancy so that it makes it extremely difficult to lose your funds because of a single mistake.  I am guessing it will also integrate L2 networks as the software grows.  At least lightning which Block/Square/CashApp have already done.  But this sort of "Bank" introduces a HUGE amount of trust in Block.  I have not deeply studied the model yet, but at a glance you have to TRUST Block just like you trust JP Morgan.  And although they are dividing the power in a way that you have the majority, they are still able to act as a "safety net" which means they have a lot of control over your UTXOs (or HTLCs).  Still...  This is a good step.  And it might just find the niche that a lot of new Bitcoinners will be attracted to, and frankly better off with than trying to "be their own bank".


Cypherpunks gonna cypherpunk.
I am admittedly a bit of a fanboy of Adam Back.  And I think Blockstream is certainly one of the more important companies in Bitcoin.  Blockstream folks have contributed to Bitcoin Core, as well as producing the 2nd most used lightning implementation.  They manufacture my favorite hardware wallet (tied with Seedsigner)And they have developed Elements, the engine for their layer 2 creation: Liquid.  And though Liquid is a ghosttown still, and has been rightly criticized by people who do not matter very much anymore, it is a very compelling structure into which Bitcoin transactions can move as the fee market makes all of us tremble.  It is interoperable with lightning, and has very interesting security trade offs.  Would I use it for cold storage?  Not yet.  But I do have a non-trivial amount of value in it in anticipation of it being more important as we move forward.  Well Blockstream too has entered the Bitcoin Bank game.  Their Green wallet recently announced the ability to use lightning.  It's still experimental, and I am testing it now.  And I think it can be used both on the Bitcoin lightning network as well as Liquid lightning.  Blockstream is building one of the most compelling sets of tradeoffs.  Trust is introduced, but is distributed unlike most other horses in this race.  And what they have left to do is to make their wallet Green transparently transact on the network that makes the most sense for the end user, whether it be the base layer, Lightning or Liquid.  If they can do that then they will have a very strong business model.  Since they own the Liquid network then they can charge small fees for transactions and make their money that way.  As well as profiting from the exchange of on chain BTC with L-BTC and Lightning.  And their model leaves you ultimately sovereign and distributes risk better than others.

The best of the best for self-sovereignty.
What I really want to see has yet to emerge.  Perhaps I should try to create it... oh wait.  Is that a taco over there?  I think of it as a FOSS Firefox unlike a captured Chromium.  An implementation of an easy to use wallet that employs multiple forms of redundancy and integrates multiple layer two networks seamlessly.  Yet it is fully FOSS, fully un-owned, and run by the users.  It could integrate base layer transactions as well as lightning, and maybe even introduce some of the leading edge strategies like Chaumian Mints (Fedimint, Cashu) or even an Elements based liquid-like implementation.  The latter could be interoperable with other Elements implementations,  including Liquid itself.

Pardon me as I daydream.  But are you seeing it?  The future?  It's out there waiting for us to seize it, direct it, and make it the best it can be.  Even as "just" end users we have a lot of power.  We choose what works best for us and can help others use those tools as well.


No, Neo.  What I am telling you is when you are ready... you won't have to!
So this is where the competition in Bitcoin software is right now.  Becoming the strongest Bitcoin Bank is the prize.  And we need to help steer as many as possible to sovereign  systems as we can.  The old guard, such as the old hardware signers, as well as the big exchanges etc., should be paying attention.  They can be left in the dust in a matter of a few years.  Or sidelined to a single function, or niche use.  While they are still living in the last halving, visionaries are quietly building the rails for the machines that will run on top of Bitcoin.

In the end, we as the users... the seasoned users, need to be vigilant to guide the machines in the right direction by supporting the things that are built with the best tradeoffs.  And we must help the clueless noobs already here, as well as the hoards on the way, UNDERSTAND why every precious bit of sovereignty you trade for every promise of security and convenience must be CAREFULLY weighed.  In the end we, the users, get to OWN our money for the first time in our lifetimes.  

#CCMF

Trezors are great... so is the Bitbox, and Ledgers and so on each in their own way.  I own a LOT of hardware wallets.  Even a KeepKey which is a fork of the Trezor.  Still the Jade is my fav (I have three Jades, lol)



As to Adam Back... what you have read is true.  Some people think he is even Satoshi (I do not really... buuuut.. maybe?).  But one thing is for sure.  His name appears in the Bitcoin Whitepaper!

A Hardware signer is not in ANY way better than a paper wallet.  In the same way an AR-15 is no better than a shotgun.  Or a bulldozer is no better than a Mustang.

Rather, a hardware signer is an extension of a cold storage wallet.

Personally I think the Jade is, in some ways, the best hardware signer available.

-Can store a seed using a unique security model that does not need a proprietary secure chip
-Can do the above with you running your own blind oracle.
-100% FOSS Hard and Soft (You can build your own out of commodity hardware)
-Works with Liquid (could be useful some day )
-Can also be stateless like the Seedsigner (also a GREAT hardware signer)
-Small
-Has a battery
-Has a camera
-Full HWI support (works with all the great SW wallets)
-Also a good official wallet (green)
-Can sign fully airgapped via QR codes.

-edit- So you know my account was not hacked by Blockstream... I also would love to see a Monero FW developed for the Jade.

-edit#2-  Also unlike other fine maxi wallets it really IS open source and the company is not run by elitist jerks...

Just wanted to write something here today.

Lightning is really working so well!  

I got fed up with Twitter during Elons most recent... whatever that was... and decided to go back over to Nostr for my doomscolling addiction.  Early on I was very excited about Nostr (back in Dec 22) but it was nothing more than a Bitcoin "pleb" echo chamber.  And the interface and experience was fairly rough around the edges.

Well, that is no longer the case.  There is tons more content there now, and it is no longer just the monotonic  Bitcoin confirmation bias machine.  And the clients have been developed to a much greater degree now.

So two points apropos to this thread.

1.  Integrated lightning is working SO WELL.  If you have not seen it, what the protocol has done (along with the app devs) is integrate something along the likes of a "tweet like", but it is called a "zap".  In this case you can send the poster sats if you like their post.  Plain old likes are there too but when you really mean it...  for example:



Gigi has received a handful of regular likes, but another user has sent him 11 satoshis as a form of approval as well.  I need to dig into the numbers some and see if my theory holds up, but I believe Nostr has probably increased the traffic of LN micro-payments quite a bit.  And it just WORKS.  It is easy to set up, and easy to use.  Crazy easy.  You can send someone 1 sat.  Or 21, or 2100, or a million (as @jack was doing for a while).  You can easily set it up with a custodial wallet like WoS but you can also set it up using non-custodial wallets.  And it is NOT hard to set up or use.  It just uses LNURLs currently, but when we get to bolt12 it's gonna be even better.

2.  This synergy is what is going to make lightning really work.  This is the first real world proof of concept in production of a while new concept being enabled by lightning.  And it is catching on!  Yes we have been able to buy giftcards with lightning, and we can "stream sats" for podcasts, but those uses are still very niche.  THIS on the other hand is drawing in new users.  Political folk tired of the censorship tug of war on centralized social media platforms are starting to come to Nostr... and they are setting up lightning wallets and zapping each other.  New users to bitcoin.  Some who have never used the base layer at all.

This is honestly the first real virtuous circle use of the LN.  A real and thriving circular economy that is also a completedly new use case that never existed before.  And it is not only simple to use, keeping the bar for entry into this low enough for non techy folks, but it also will turn on a LOT of light bulbs for peoiple who have never thought much about what bitcoin is...

"You mean you can send me money... but there is no middle man, and once I have it it's mine, and I can do anything with it I want?  And no one can stop it?"

All of this happening RIGHT at the time where Elon and Mark are doing their stupid dick measuring contest over their closed, broken, sad attempts of becoming the wechat of the west?

Nostr is where this is happening currently.

First person to ping me on there who is "zappable" gets 1k sats.

npub1qktjyk0vdqlfss7wztawdnka5phx2p3vlvq50x0z402jk2fjhtnqlx9qas

Wait.  Has it really only been ten times?  Seems like more.