[CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx

[Coincomm]

So can we call this IPO a flop yet or what? I see only the first batch of shares sold (almost).

No. MPEX takes a 20BTC fee to register and it's 9AM or less in America.

...it's also Monday.

[EskimoBob]

It's already specified that the shares offered in this IPO have no voting rights.  Even if the shares had voting rights, evoorhees is only offering 10% of the company ownership to the public, so it wouldn't matter either way.  All you're buying with these shares is a non-guaranteed revenue stream.

You are correct. 10% vote can never win 90% and this was pointless clause.  
I guess those shares offered are not the same shares what Evoorhees owns at the moment.  In this case, are those a new issue of stock and issued by SD for the IPO.
Can someone clear this up a bit?

[zebedee]

reason I am asking is simple: What happens to your pass through?
You are going to dump another 3 million shares @ 0.0037 btc on Aug 26, Midnight GMT, while you still have 26767 available @ 0.0034.

I see 66000 now     Wanna buy 100?  It might go up, you know?  Just gotta find another 65,900 buyers before it has a chance.   

[zebedee]

It's already specified that the shares offered in this IPO have no voting rights.  Even if the shares had voting rights, evoorhees is only offering 10% of the company ownership to the public, so it wouldn't matter either way.  All you're buying with these shares is a non-guaranteed revenue stream.

You are correct. 10% vote can never win 90% and this was pointless clause.  
I guess those shares offered are not the same shares what Evoorhees owns at the moment.  In this case, are those a new issue of stock and issued by SD for the IPO.
Can someone clear this up a bit?

Bob - The whole thing seems more of a gentleman's agreement than something solid from the investor's POV.  From the seller's POV it's a sweet deal for sure.

Which IMO means another 50% discount should be demanded.

Quite why anyone would be happy with the terms, given what their legal and contractual exposure, and expected returns might be, (and post a 20 BTC arrogance tax!), is surprising indeed.  I may be missing something though....

The proof is in the pudding and I look forward to its baking.  A bit of sugar might be nice 

[bitcoinbear]

Quite why anyone would be happy with the terms, given what their legal and contractual exposure, and expected returns might be, (and post a 20 BTC arrogance tax!), is surprising indeed.  I may be missing something though....

Some people might expect the revenue to increase at least in the short term. Some people might view this as less risky than other investments in bitcoin.

[EskimoBob]

if you only sell 6% of the company then only 6% of profits will be paid as dividends ?

No. You misunderstood me or I was not clear enough.  

Lest say you have a Co and you own 100% shares. Lets call those shares "S". If "S" has right for divs, you get 100% of the divs. There are 100 shares of "S" outstanding and those shares are all yours.
Now, you decide to take your Co public. Co (not you!) usually issues additional shares of "S" and sells those to the public.
Why? To rise capital for expansion and give your existing shares additional value and liquidity, Or get you out of the business so you can go and drink yourself to death in Tijuana... what ever rocks your boat. (there are lost of reasons why to go public/sell your Co).

What ever rights the S had, additional S will have that too. Lets say Co issued 100 new shares of S @ 10. Your outstanding shares of S is now 200 and you hold 50% of S.

Your Co can have lots of different types of stock issued, privately or publicly and with different bells and whistles attached. This is all equity and when issued by Co (not you), money (or equivalent) must change hands. You can not just invent equity out of this air.

Now, lest say your Co also issues shares called "S.nv" (non voting) @ 10 and those shares will represent 10% of your total equity (200 shares of S).
S.nv also has rights for dividends. Now you have total outstanding S - 200 shares and 20 shares of S.nv.
When the div day arrives, S gets 80 and S.nv get 20% of dividends.  

If you want those shares as a owner of S, you need to buy them or have the Co buy those for you (bad for all the other stock holders).
You can not just take those "S.nv" shares for yourself because you are the majority owner of S.

[evoorhees]

So it is thus accurate to say that I prefer 32k BTC instead of 10% of SatoshiDICE, but I would not prefer 15k BTC instead of 10% of SatoshiDICE. My investment preference only shifts to the BTC at the 32k for 10% exchange rate. Further, I wouldn’t sell another 10% for an additional 32k btc, for at that margin my preference shifts back to SD.

If some portion of the Bitcoin investment world has a matching inverse time preference to to mine, and is thus willing to pay 32k BTC for 10% of SD, then we all have a deal and the exchange is made. Otherwise, my exchange preference and that of the market do not align, and we continue on as we were.

Are you planning to call off this IPO since the second tranche is practically untouched after 24 hrs and the third one should also be released by any moment now? Seems like your conditions above (emphasis mine) are not going to be met.

What price you're going to use when buying back shares? I mean, if someone is now buying in for .0034 and then you decide to cancel the IPO and buy back for .0032 there's immediate 6% loss (plus possible MPEx/GLBSE fees etc). Didn't find a clause for this when glancing over the conditions.

No intention of "calling off" anything. If shares don't get bought, then I get to keep the dividends to myself. No biggie.

Actually it is a biggie to you and not for the investors.
If you do not buy those shares personally from the IPO, you can not get the dividends. As simple as that.
If part of the IPO is not sold out, shares will be "bought back" or more like held by the company (not you as a person) and those shares become so called treasury stock. Treasury stock will be excluded form dividend payments and have no voting right etc and are not part of the SD equity (in your balance sheet). 
Option #2 is, you cancel the left over shares and by that you reduce the number of the total outstanding shares.
Option #3 You cancel the whole issue and return the money to IPO participants at the price they bought the shares. 
Like I mentioned before, you got greedy and this moron, who advised you on your IPO, has no idea what he is doing or did.

Nonsense. The shares which are not yet sold are still owned by me. They are in my personal MPEx account, just as if I had bought them. Dividends thus go to me.

[evoorhees]

My investment preference only shifts to the BTC at the 32k for 10% exchange rate.

Translation: S.DICE shares are worth less than 0.0032BTC

You don't seem to understand the concept of marginal utility. I'm happy to sell 10% for the IPO price, but I would not sell the next marginal 10% for the same amount (I would be unwilling to sell it unless the price was higher).

So the first 10% of shares are worth less than .0032BTC to me (their marginal utility is lower), but the next 10% are worth more than .0032 to me and thus are not being offered at that price. In the same way, an investor with 1000 btc might value his first 100btc less than X amount of SD stock, but wouldn't value his next 100btc at that same price, and thus he'd be willing to trade 100btc for the X amount of stock, but no more than that. 

[evoorhees]

So it is thus accurate to say that I prefer 32k BTC instead of 10% of SatoshiDICE, but I would not prefer 15k BTC instead of 10% of SatoshiDICE. My investment preference only shifts to the BTC at the 32k for 10% exchange rate. Further, I wouldn’t sell another 10% for an additional 32k btc, for at that margin my preference shifts back to SD.

If some portion of the Bitcoin investment world has a matching inverse time preference to to mine, and is thus willing to pay 32k BTC for 10% of SD, then we all have a deal and the exchange is made. Otherwise, my exchange preference and that of the market do not align, and we continue on as we were.

Are you planning to call off this IPO since the second tranche is practically untouched after 24 hrs and the third one should also be released by any moment now? Seems like your conditions above (emphasis mine) are not going to be met.

What price you're going to use when buying back shares? I mean, if someone is now buying in for .0034 and then you decide to cancel the IPO and buy back for .0032 there's immediate 6% loss (plus possible MPEx/GLBSE fees etc). Didn't find a clause for this when glancing over the conditions.

No intention of "calling off" anything. If shares don't get bought, then I get to keep the dividends to myself. No biggie.

I hope you arent going to transfer unsold shares to your own account because that would be fraud, because thats the only way you can earn dividends from them.

The shares originate in my account - I'm the owner. Why are you suggesting it's fraud if they remain under my ownership when they're under my ownership currently? 

[bitcoinbear]

So this is more a large shareholder selling off a portion of his holding, rather than the comapny issuing new stock. I thought that was settled several pages ago?

[michaelmclees]

If I were to buy shares, could my shares be diluted at a later time?

[evoorhees]

come to think of it, you actually have added "Free riding" to your IPO.
LOL...
And now I like to know, why did you let people to trade your shares BEFORE! the IPO was complete (in half, full, canceled).
 
 

Sorry I have no idea what you're talking about 

[evoorhees]

if you only sell 6% of the company then only 6% of profits will be paid as dividends ?

Of course. Each share created represents one one hundred millionth of dividends. It doesn't matter how many are sold. The owner of each share gets that amount.

[evoorhees]

It's already specified that the shares offered in this IPO have no voting rights.  Even if the shares had voting rights, evoorhees is only offering 10% of the company ownership to the public, so it wouldn't matter either way.  All you're buying with these shares is a non-guaranteed revenue stream.

You are correct. 10% vote can never win 90% and this was pointless clause.  
I guess those shares offered are not the same shares what Evoorhees owns at the moment.  In this case, are those a new issue of stock and issued by SD for the IPO.
Can someone clear this up a bit?

There are 100,000,000 ownership shares. 10,000,000 of these are up for sale via MPEx (and via a proxy on GLBSE). As per the contract, shares cannot be diluted, so these are all the shares that exist and can ever exist unless I bought up the shares again (which is very possible).

[evoorhees]

If I were to buy shares, could my shares be diluted at a later time?

Nope. That would be dishonest of me, and it's written in the contract that such cannot happen.

[Dice]

Any idea who is maintaining the pass through for this? Is it yourself Erik?

[EskimoBob]

Nonsense. The shares which are not yet sold are still owned by me. They are in my personal MPEx account, just as if I had bought them. Dividends thus go to me.

No need to get your panties in a bunch. I guess it was not clear to me that the seller is you in person and not the SatoshiDICE.
Fair enough.

[evoorhees]

Any idea who is maintaining the pass through for this? Is it yourself Erik?

Yeah it's being maintained by DeaDTerra, who is basically an all-around badass and I'm very happy he's set it up.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103654.0

[Dice]

Any idea who is maintaining the pass through for this? Is it yourself Erik?

Yeah it's being maintained by DeaDTerra, who is basically an all-around badass and I'm very happy he's set it up.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103654.0

Thanks buddy

PS: Watching the Porcfest bitcoin talk! exciting to put usernames to faces!

[DeaDTerra]

Any idea who is maintaining the pass through for this? Is it yourself Erik?

Yeah it's being maintained by DeaDTerra, who is basically an all-around badass and I'm very happy he's set it up.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103654.0

Yay, I am a bad ass
I am maintaining the pass through, it's basicly just a matter of buying backing when necessary and paying out dividends when Erik does
I hope you enjoy my service and I will do my best to provide a high quality pass through.
//DeaDTerra