[CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx

[wtfvanity]

Thanks for being a great CEO Erik!
(I expect a reply in 12 hours)

I echo Draino and Abu's concerns.
(No reply, ever.)

You manipulated shareholders, Erik.
I don't know why you're getting a pass with so many people on these forums.  My guess is that they're kids who don't know the first thing about running a company and offering shares to the public.

If you don't like what he is doing, sell your shares. The people that truly don't like getting jerked around if they so felt that way, did so a long time ago.

Indeed, that's a strong indication that they are in it for the verbal abuse they can dump on Erik. They probably have been verbally abused themselves, probably by their closest relatives, and are now transfering that shit to others. They prefer victims that cannot fight back or escape easily as that was exactly what happened to them. I can strongly relate with this kind of behavior as I have done the same in the past, transfering my shit to others unjustly. The way to break that cycle is to not accept any chit anymore yourself, or give back the chit to the ones that gave it, probably some close relatives.

Here a conversation with someone who realizes he is rejecting good people and why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boRTelS8iK4

Here is my disclosure. I bought shares near IPO price. Saw them go up in value a lot. Saw things that I didn't like. Share price started to dive, and I sold for about what I bought them for. I keep an eye on it in case it becomes an investment I want to get back into. It's not. I also am not too happy with some of everhoos transparency and lack of response. So. Instead of crying about it like a fucking baby, I won't participate in sdice until it becomes an investment that I would be happy with.

So, Abu22, stop sounding like a cry baby idiot, and sell your shares if you aren't happy how things are being run. I take it, that you DON'T have a controlling interest in sdice. Since I'm talking in percentages, I bet you don't need any fingers to explain how much sdice stock you're hanging onto.

[1715374499]

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[Pale Phoenix]

So you joined last month and things are already obvious to "us", by which us you denote you and all the mice in your pocket(s)?

Well, judging by the rather jaundiced condition of your ignore button, I don't think it's just me and my mice over here.

You just go on spouting nonsense about how the rest of us with real, actual, assets evaluate investments. It's a nice complement to the incredibly effective PR 2.0 you've introduced to the Internets.

Seriously, comparing what you do to public relations is like comparing Costco potato salad to Pommes Dauphinoise.

[Pale Phoenix]

Am I the only one that finds this thread to be quite comical?

On the one hand, we have tons of newbie accounts (85% likely to be puppets, but still) complaining that SD has been a poorly run and terrible overall investment.

On the other hand, we have people who recognize the difficulties of running a business and praise Erik for the work he's put in so far. I concur with this group, and I can only imagine some of the hardships Erik is encountering, both on legal and financial fronts as he grows the business.

It seems, however, that the first group doesn't quite understand A) how businesses are run, B) how market conditions (including both currency fluctuations and competition) can influence share price, and C) that achieving 20%+ annual ROI is better than just about any other investment you'll be able to find (either in the "real world" or Bitcoin).

Sooo...remind me again why Erik should have to answer to a bunch of trolling, butt-hurt children who are angry because they haven't made millions off of SD in the past 3 months?

The tone of some of these posts is certainly off putting, and some of the participants are obviously immature, but that doesn't mean there aren't real questions to be answered. I'm sure most CEO's don't especially like being called out on the carpet during their annual meetings either, but when you are an adult, and you handle other people's money, you have to expect it, and handle it professionally.

There is an incredible lack of transparency and communication in these BTC ventures, and while we all knew that going in, it certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't press for more disclosure. And of course some investors don't understand how the businesses is run; they have invested their money to purchase the benefit of someone else's expertise.

Your attitude seems to be that people who've invested should have no right to ask questions, because, well darn, just look at that return. I don't know when you bought your shares, but there are obviously many who haven't seen 20% this year. But that's beside the point anyway, as there is no inverse relationship between profit and disclosure.

Bottom line: if you communicate plans and challenges in a timely, professional manner, you have far less confusion and discord. That should be as self evident as the absurdity of appointing someone with the disposition of Triumph the insult dog to speak on behalf of the company.

[ar9]

Agree with Pale Phoenix.

I consider myself pretty level headed and objective when it comes to my investments.
There are certain things that have transpired that ought to be fully disclosed to shareholders.  

Also, Korbman, 20% annual ROI is not that impressive when your share is denominated primarily in BTC, which is inherently risky.  I consider all of my Bitcoin investments extremely high risk; ergo, I would expect higher than 20% annual ROI.

With my fiat investments, I am content with 4% annual ROI, to give you some reference of expectations.

Also, Korbman, as an investor, I would suggest you withhold opinions like these, particularly when you run another investment fund... when you say that 20% annual ROI is abnormally high and above expectations, that doesn't give me much hope for KCIM.

EDIT: Moreover, I have personally witnessed Abu ask Erik a straight forward question for nearly a month now, and has been ignored every time.  If share funds are going towards an "IT guy" I want to know the full conditions of this payment (as well as what the hell this guy is doing).

Why?  Because it is MY money I am giving to him.

If Erik didn't want to be transparent about his company, he shouldn't have opened an IPO.

[fcmatt]

Is not sd the most transparent because of that savvy bitcointalk user who does reports of win and loss?
You can tell how the biz is doing almost to the exact btc.

Now how it is ran, managed, whatever is something else... But the books for the gambling operation are wide open.

[Korbman]

The tone of some of these posts is certainly off putting, and some of the participants are obviously immature, but that doesn't mean there aren't real questions to be answered. I'm sure most CEO's don't especially like being called out on the carpet during their annual meetings either, but when you are an adult, and you handle other people's money, you have to expect it, and handle it professionally.

There is an incredible lack of transparency and communication in these BTC ventures, and while we all knew that going in, it certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't press for more disclosure. And of course some investors don't understand how the businesses is run; they have invested their money to purchase the benefit of someone else's expertise.

Your attitude seems to be that people who've invested should have no right to ask questions, because, well darn, just look at that return. I don't know when you bought your shares, but there are obviously many who haven't seen 20% this year. But that's beside the point anyway, as there is no inverse relationship between profit and disclosure.

Bottom line: if you communicate plans and challenges in a timely, professional manner, you have far less confusion and discord. That should be as self evident as the absurdity of appointing someone with the disposition of Triumph the insult dog to speak on behalf of the company.

Though I agree that there are questions yet to be answered, I wholly disagree with the approaches taken to ask them..so I suppose we're on the same page there. I can read post after post of troll threads and simply ignore them, regardless of whether or not valid questions are posed.

That said, I also encourage questions (threads on my business ventures are a testament to that). I suppose before was more of a reaction to troll threads where it seemed people where vexed by the company's "mismanagement" and their dwindling returns. I dunno..I babble from time to time.

As for my holdings, I've been buying and selling since January and haven't had a loss yet. Sold when I thought it was overvalued, bought again when it dropped. Dumped everything I owned when Erik sold some of his shares since I figured dilution would take over in the long run, not to mention the BTC price was skyrocketing (or at least starting to). For the most part people are pretty finicky about bad news (especially here in BTC-land)..so paying attention to Dooglus's daily SD stat postings has helped with the buy low / sell high pattern. As it is right now, I'm not holding anything (missed a buy opportunity last week)..but I'll certainly buy again when the time strikes.


TL;DR - I agree..more communication would be nice. Stock prices go up and down all the time for any number of reasons, that's not what concerns me. I'm more interested in the direction the business is going and any underlying objectives to get there. With that info, I'm more inclined to allocate funds to long term holdings instead of my previous strategy.

Also, Korbman, as an investor, I would suggest you withhold opinions like these, particularly when you run another investment fund... when you say that 20% annual ROI is abnormally high and above expectations, that doesn't give me much hope for KCIM.

My opinions are what they are: opinions

To be honest, I actually laughed out loud after reading this sentence. It's quite apparent you have no idea what KCIM is or what my Notes entail..and that's another topic for another thread, let's stick to SDice. On that note, where did I say that 20% was abnormally high? I just double checked my previous posts, but I can't seem to find it..

If Erik didn't want to be transparent about his company, he shouldn't have opened an IPO.

Transparency is an option, not a requirement. Those of us who detail how our companies run are doing it more as a courtesy than anything else. Yes, there are consequences should we neglect transparency..that's not what I'm arguing.

Besides, as fcmatt just noted above, SDice's books are open to all. I'd say that's quite transparent.

[Abu22]

​

Am I the only one that finds this thread to be quite comical?

On the one hand, we have tons of newbie accounts (85% likely to be puppets, but still) complaining that SD has been a poorly run and terrible overall investment.

On the other hand, we have people who recognize the difficulties of running a business and praise Erik for the work he's put in so far. I concur with this group, and I can only imagine some of the hardships Erik is encountering, both on legal and financial fronts as he grows the business.

It seems, however, that the first group doesn't quite understand A) how businesses are run, B) how market conditions (including both currency fluctuations and competition) can influence share price, and C) that achieving 20%+ annual ROI is better than just about any other investment you'll be able to find (either in the "real world" or Bitcoin).

OK, by all means tell us all how you think 'businesses are run' if you truly are implying that a undefined floating salary is a good idea (With no explanation of how it's calculated), how a newly employed and high cost I.T professional is hired while we have both the website domain expiring, huge periods of down time and delayed returns on a site that prides itself on it's instant results. THEN another I.T employee hired, while keeping the old one to 'teach' him/her the ways... Mind you the new employee last monthly payment was of the worth $10,000 ..Compared to the head I.T persons prev cap of (apparently) $5000. If you really think having an issue with this is 'not understanding how businesses are run' then yes, I'd keep your mouth shut because if that's how you plan on running yours... I feel sorry for the fools who follow you off the cliff.

More so if the business model is to only reply to positive feed back (as above with the less than 12 hr response time) while neglecting to answer in full any queries relating to some serious matters surrounding the running of SD...  ( Please, if you really want the full context of the situation, begin reading from page 66, where I initially began bringing up these matters as they arose. That was at the beginning of April, still with no substantial answer. Despite my efforts to keep the questions from being buried in irrelevance of the pointless ' aww Erik's trying so hard leave him alone, we love you' shit posts...So  as you read through the 2 months worth of posts you really s​houdn't be surprised by the increasing level of annoyance.

Indeed, that's a strong indication that they are in it for the verbal abuse they can dump on Erik. They probably have been verbally abused themselves, probably by their closest relatives, and are now transfering that shit to others. They prefer victims that cannot fight back or escape easily as that was exactly what happened to them. I can strongly relate with this kind of behavior as I have done the same in the past, transfering my shit to others unjustly. The way to break that cycle is to not accept any chit anymore yourself, or give back the chit to the ones that gave it, probably some close relatives.

Thanks Sigmund. How about basing your argument on something of substance rather than your numerous appeals to pathos. Seriously, just have a go at refuting any point you like using logic and reason. Not some unbacked worthless opinion you conjure from the most primitive part of your mind. Now don't go have a cry and comeback with some comment that because you where offended the entire substance of all of my posts becomes void.

This goes the same for you Korbman. If you agree that there are questions that still are needing to be answered, but disagree with the approach I'm taking to getting them answered... What would you suggest? Asking politely doesn't yield a response, asking numerously doesn't either. Asking about anything that's going on doesn't seem lead to any response. And the only thing that does seem to get any feedback is the posts of disdain..Which become more and more deserved as the basic underlying questions get ignored and evaded.

So are you willing to confirm that you have in fact been, arbitrarily calculating payments?

I don't know what you mean by "arbitrarily calculating payments."  I explained how I calculate them. On the day that the bill is paid, I use the current BTC exchange rate. For each expense listed, I mentioned the date and if USD then I mentioned the exchange rate used on that day. What's complicated about that?

You said the original I.T guy had a salary of 100 btc a month, capped at $5000 worth. This is not what correlated with the price. Is the new guy at 10k a month now?

Yes, it's the fault of SD. You can easily average the months fluctuations (or the past months) as long as you're CONSISTENT with how you do it...Not pick one day in the month where you cherry pick a good day to pay.

You could do it as all payments calc'd on the 4th, idgaf. The way you're doing it now is frankly, dumb as shit.

BTC, is what has gained value, you starte​​d this up in it's early days, Bitcoin has done well...This is a boat floating on that water.
​​

It's not the share price that is the direct concern, it's the whole handling of the business (From what little you leak about it...But shit you take a lot of probing to get any real answer from...)

So again, I'll ask.
-Has there been any consistency with method of payment calculations, if so what exactly is that. (8th time asked now?)

-Will the 'big announment' be announced this month? Is there even one?

please answer these straightforwardly. It shouldn't need bullet points, colour, bolding and enlarged font... maybe when I get to the 10th ask I'll consider it.

Dynamically choosing a day in the month, each month to be your billing day for individual costs is not consistent. And what is last months big announcement being delayed for?

If you have the time anyone, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on having simple text links advertising like http://bitcoinity.org/markets ... More revenue, and more support for other BTC ventures to get a footing, It's not about money, it's about assisting in strengthening the foundations of BTC as a means of business. (Valid and thoughtout critisims and comments only. None of that, 'I hate ad's therfor NO' - reason WHY.) ...Lol we should start using btcbets.com to guess the time it'll take for a response.

[EskimoBob]

Abu22, isn't all this in their monthly reports? You know, the Income/Expense with PL statement and the monthly balance sheet.

[Abu22]

Abu22, isn't all this in their monthly reports? You know, the Income/Expense with PL statement and the monthly balance sheet.

By 'all this' I assume you only mean one of the things I'm asking about... And no, obviously it's not. Hence why I am asking about it. Could you have not checked for yourself?

For the first time (may) the expenses have been detailed with comments. If you believe that this information is sufficient to determine these discrepancies..Please, do share.

(mm/dd)
- Head I.T payed 94 btc  value @ $106 (05/02) (conveniently not the 1st (~$130) ..or any of the rest of the month that spent most of the time between 110 -132. Obviously wasn't on the 3rd where it dropped to 80 for a moment because that wouldn't be an instant red flag...But still the second lowest)

This new Head it has a monthly payment of just under $10,000. No explanation as to why it's double from the legacy IT guy. (Who is still employed and payed 20 btc - no date supplied)

So in April the Head I.T dev was payed 52.9 btc. (Which is supposedly capped at $5000 worth {5000\53 =94} ). April 1st price was between $93-104. While increasing to 200+ up till April 10th. So again, conveniently payed on the 1st (not the 2nd like above). And 90 btc to a systems operator. No disclosure of their pay cap..And very suspect going ons here.

Refer to February. Systems Contractor 100 btc: "This will be a recurring monthly expense. It is compensation for the site's IT contractor. This would make you assume that this person is the Head I.T person. But instead we see this systems operation and the Head I.T dev being paid in April.

If you know who this repeat 100btc payee is (who only has appeared from feb - april) please call crime stoppers on ###-##-##. (lol I don't know if you have crime stoppers in the U.S)

Can you see how these ~100 btc payments are calculated, who they're for (what that payee is doing that's worth 100btc) and why they suddenly appeared...then paired with the I.T head...then disappeared...leaving us with two people still - the new I.T dev and the old I.T dev.

If you think these documents provide answers, rather than beg questions... You must either need more or less medication.
 
These of course are worth nothing more than the words themselves without any tx records provided.

If anyone can demonstrate some understanding of this...Then call me out on it, show me that I'm being an idiot for thinking this doesn't add up. Otherwise please refrain from criticising my inquisitions... If you cannot provide the answers let me ask the person who can.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the amount of resistance I'm meeting in asking all this... What do you all have against establishing the truth? Are you not Bitcoiners? Have you already lost sight of what it means to free? All you're doing is relinquishing your own freedoms and then trying to drag others down with you to do the same, you do it to yourselves.

[RationalSpeculator]

.. it is disingenuous to keep highlighting the 10x number with regards to valuation and dividends.  If this were the primary factor at play, then when the price dropped back down to 5x of what it was in February, then theoretically share price should have doubled from what it was at the peak of the exchange rate, which isn't what happened.

Are you sure?

I am looking at prices on havelock 'charts'. On the 9th of april when bitcoin peaked out at $266, sdice bottomed out at 0.0012. In the next 7 days bitcoin prices tumbled to a low around $50 on the 16th of April, while sdice went up again and reached a high of 0.0042 on the 15th of April. So while bitcoin prices were cut by 5, sdice did quadruple. Pretty close match I would say.

Since then prices of bitcoin have about doubled from $50 to the current $120, while sdice has about halved from 0.0042 to the current 0.0020. Also a pretty good match I would say.

From this evidence I think it is correct to conclude that the exchange rate of bitcoin is strongly inversely correlated to the sdice share price. If bitcoin goes up, sdice shares will fall in btc price. If bitcoin goes down, sdice share will go up in btc price. It's not perfect, but it's close.  

This means that sdice is a good protection against falling btc prices. But equally it's a no go if you want to profit from rising btc prices.

Cash does a better job in protecting against falling btc prices, than sdice, but cash does a worse job in profiting from btc rises, than sdice.

[Zebulon Pike]

.. it is disingenuous to keep highlighting the 10x number with regards to valuation and dividends.  If this were the primary factor at play, then when the price dropped back down to 5x of what it was in February, then theoretically share price should have doubled from what it was at the peak of the exchange rate, which isn't what happened.

Are you sure?

I am looking at prices on havelock 'charts'. On the 9th of april when bitcoin peaked out at $266, sdice bottomed out at 0.0012. In the next 7 days bitcoin prices tumbled to a low around $50 on the 16th of April, while sdice went up again and reached a high of 0.0042 on the 15th of April. So while bitcoin prices were cut by 5, sdice did quadruple. Pretty close match I would say.

Since then prices of bitcoin have about doubled from $50 to the current $120, while sdice has about halved from 0.0042 to the current 0.0020. Also a pretty good match I would say.

From this evidence I think it is correct to conclude that the exchange rate of bitcoin is strongly inversely correlated to the sdice share price. If bitcoin goes up, sdice shares will fall in btc price. If bitcoin goes down, sdice share will go up in btc price. It's not perfect, but it's close.  

This means that sdice is a good protection against falling btc prices. But equally it's a no go if you want to profit from rising btc prices.

Cash does a better job in protecting against falling btc prices, than sdice, but cash does a worse job in profiting from btc rises, than sdice.

This may be a market/exchange fragmentation issue, but I was not looking at Havelock.  It appears that they are issuing shares of a proprietary fund that is made up of shares of SD, but they are not a place trading in actual shares on a 1-1 basis, so the prices they reflect are for shares of their SD-based fund (presumably with a premium on top).

I was using https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.SDICE for my data, which has fairly different values (looking at the 3- and 6-month charts)

[EskimoBob]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aiec3-Eo_yO5dHB2dVdiaEltUHAtTWlBcFhXQVBYeGc#gid=0

I have to agree Abu22, those "financial statements" are a joke. Who made them? That "IT guy"?

BTW, I can not find the current balance sheet or the annual report for 2013

[MPOE-PR]

Am I the only one that finds this thread to be quite comical?

On the one hand, we have tons of newbie accounts (85% likely to be puppets, but still) complaining that SD has been a poorly run and terrible overall investment.

On the other hand, we have people who recognize the difficulties of running a business and praise Erik for the work he's put in so far. I concur with this group, and I can only imagine some of the hardships Erik is encountering, both on legal and financial fronts as he grows the business.

It seems, however, that the first group doesn't quite understand A) how businesses are run, B) how market conditions (including both currency fluctuations and competition) can influence share price, and C) that achieving 20%+ annual ROI is better than just about any other investment you'll be able to find (either in the "real world" or Bitcoin).

Sooo...remind me again why Erik should have to answer to a bunch of trolling, butt-hurt children who are angry because they haven't made millions off of SD in the past 3 months?

Wtf, I'm like impressed with Korbman allofassudden.

So, Abu22, stop sounding like a cry baby idiot, and sell your shares if you aren't happy how things are being run. I take it, that you DON'T have a controlling interest in sdice. Since I'm talking in percentages, I bet you don't need any fingers to explain how much sdice stock you're hanging onto.

In his defense however, while it's quite often the case that the activist shareholder is a royal pain in the butt and waste of everyone's time, it's nevertheless always the case that the activist shareholder is seen as the troublemaker evil scapegoat. But for that difference between always and quite often there'd be no sound business in the world.

Abu22, isn't all this in their monthly reports? You know, the Income/Expense with PL statement and the monthly balance sheet.

You don't get to make the standards, and you don't even get a say in it. There's other people making the standards. Learn to cope.

[EskimoBob]

Abu22, isn't all this in their monthly reports? You know, the Income/Expense with PL statement and the monthly balance sheet.

You don't get to make the standards, and you don't even get a say in it. There's other people making the standards. Learn to cope.

LOL, I guess you have one of those megalomania episodes ... AGAIN! Your "standard" is a joke, dipshit! Learn to cope with that.  LOL 

[bitcoinbear]

This may be a market/exchange fragmentation issue, but I was not looking at Havelock.  It appears that they are issuing shares of a proprietary fund that is made up of shares of SD, but they are not a place trading in actual shares on a 1-1 basis, so the prices they reflect are for shares of their SD-based fund (presumably with a premium on top).

I was using https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.SDICE for my data, which has fairly different values (looking at the 3- and 6-month charts)

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

[freedomno1]

This may be a market/exchange fragmentation issue, but I was not looking at Havelock.  It appears that they are issuing shares of a proprietary fund that is made up of shares of SD, but they are not a place trading in actual shares on a 1-1 basis, so the prices they reflect are for shares of their SD-based fund (presumably with a premium on top).

I was using https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.SDICE for my data, which has fairly different values (looking at the 3- and 6-month charts)

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

I see a -

[RationalSpeculator]

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

Havelock SDICE Passthrough has same volume as MPEX SDICE, around 380,000/MPEX and 350,000/Havelock past 30 days

[MPOE-PR]

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

Havelock SDICE Passthrough has same volume as MPEX SDICE, around 380,000/MPEX and 350,000/Havelock past 30 days

Kind of an interesting phenomenon seeing how Havelock holds about 1% or something like that?

[RationalSpeculator]

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

Havelock SDICE Passthrough has same volume as MPEX SDICE, around 380,000/MPEX and 350,000/Havelock past 30 days

Kind of an interesting phenomenon seeing how Havelock holds about 1% or something like that?

They hold 1.4 million shares, so 1.4% indeed. Mpex 13 million? (minus havelock 1.4 = 11.6 million)?

[freedomno1]

Maybe you should look at the actual asset (the one on MPEx) instead of looking at the pass-throughs, which have much lower volumes.

Havelock SDICE Passthrough has same volume as MPEX SDICE, around 380,000/MPEX and 350,000/Havelock past 30 days

Kind of an interesting phenomenon seeing how Havelock holds about 1% or something like that?

They hold 1.4 million shares, so 1.4% indeed. Mpex 13 million? (minus havelock 1.4 = 11.6 million)?

Actually that is a bit surprising considering ASIC is the most liquid stock atm