Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)

[MarketNeutral]

I'd be remiss not to remind everyone, as an aside to this discussion as it pertains to gold and debt and money, that money and currency are not the same thing, that gold is (among other things) that which extinguishes debt, and that bitcoin shares some properties with gold, such as fungibility and scarcity (i.e., cannot be created via debt or other fiat mechanisms; must be mined), as well as other properties that still need to time to gain confidence and acceptance, such as bitcoin's ability to function, much like gold can, as a unit of account and globally as a supranational commodity-currency. Moreover, bitcoin, like gold, is cannot borrowed into existence.

[1715009862]

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[1715009862]

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[1715009862]

1715009862

[Holliday]

hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

How much bandwidth is Core using per month? What are your maximum download/upload speeds from your ISP (and how much does it cost)? How many peers are you connected to on a regular basis? Do you have any special settings in your config file (fee rules or connection limits)?

I have dedicated hardware for my node (building computers is a hobby of mine, so I probably go overboard there), yet sharing Bitcoin data with my peers is where I am having issues. I've had to limit the number of peers that my node will allow or my internet service slows to a crawl for other purposes. I pay quite a bit for top tier (enthusiast) internet speeds from a major ISP.

Or, are you simply saying that your old computer can sync the chain at which point you shut it down?

I have 50 mbps down 10 mbps up with no cap residential ADSL. Running all three blockchains as a full node with ports open is about 400 GB per month.

Edit: I added the no cap option for an extra 15 CAD a month, The plan comes with 400 GB of data per month. Cost including a home POTS phone line is 132.50 CAD a month including all taxes.

I have similar speeds (faster download, same upload) and our discussion convinced me to increase the maxconnections allowed by my node to 50 (from 30). In a span of 6 days, my node downloaded 5 GB and uploaded 110 GB of block chain data.

The problem is that during this span, I often have a noticeable slow down of other internet traffic. During these times of heavy Core uploading, web traffic slows to a crawl and streaming video is out of the question. If my ISP offered a faster (upload) tier, I would purchase it, but I do not have the option. I live in a relatively (to the rest of the world) developed location. If I lived in a more remote (less developed) area, or had to send all of my Bitcoin traffic through ToR (I shouldn't need to explain why that could become a reality), I would have an even more difficult time running a full node. If the amount of data I need to share is drastically increased, I would have a difficult time at my current location.

I'm not great with the QoS settings on my router or perhaps I could improve my experience. Perhaps some of the changes coming to Core that I've read about will help. In the meantime, I've had to reduce the maxconnections allowed. I just can't see how anyone would want to drastically increase the amount of data needed to be shared while going through the same user experience as me.

I think Core should remain something that a Bitcoin enthusiast (willing to spend a decent amount of money doing so) like myself can continue to run semi-easily, even if circumstances arise which may make that more difficult (certain groups deciding that Bitcoin data should be censored, for example).

In other words, the network should remain robust ("lite and tight" as tvbcof would say).

[tvbcof]

...
I have similar speeds (faster download, same upload) and our discussion convinced me to increase the maxconnections allowed by my node to 50 (from 30). In a span of 6 days, my node downloaded 5 GB and uploaded 110 GB of block chain data.
...

Good to know.  I have 'unlimited' service (150 GB/month) for which I pay about $1400/year.  The cap is a summation of both upload and download I believe.  It drives me nuts when people have these adolescent fantasies about Bitcoin being robust 'because satellite'.  Nothing could be more absurd and in multiple ways.

The last time I actually helped the network was when I ran bitcoind on my i586 based 1/2G router.  When that became impractical due to traffic growth I never did bother to set up a port forward (and sure as hell was not going to run UPnP!)

If people could at least break even by providing service in the transfer network (which I mistakenly thought was on the drawing board when I read the whitepaper) I doubt that we'd be facing issues.  Addressing this issue would be the prime area I'd like to see focused on.  As I've mentioned, a dedicated sidechain to apportion reward in a 'segregated' manner seems to me the most likely way to achieve this.

[VeritasSapere]

I'd be remiss not to remind everyone, as an aside to this discussion as it pertains to gold and debt and money, that money and currency are not the same thing, that gold is (among other things) that which extinguishes debt, and that bitcoin shares some properties with gold, such as fungibility and scarcity (i.e., cannot be created via debt or other fiat mechanisms; must be mined), as well as other properties that still need to time to gain confidence and acceptance, such as bitcoin's ability to function, much like gold can, as a unit of account and globally as a supranational commodity-currency. Moreover, bitcoin, like gold, is cannot borrowed into existence.

Not all money is currency, but all currency is money. Aristotle defined currency as being durable, portable, fungible and that it should have intrinsic value.

This is why I mentioned the history of money earlier in this thread, since for the majority of known human history we have had commodity money. Which is not based on debt, fiat or money by authority is only a relatively recent development. Bitcoin represents a return to true commodity money, Bitcoin is an asset based currency not a debt based currency like fiat.

One important factor when comparing Bitcoin to gold in terms of its value, is actually its utility, it is this utility that gives Bitcoin the advantage as a store of value compared to gold. After all we can not sprinkle gold dust down a phone line and send it across the world cheaply in a matter of seconds without relying on third parties.

In those days some families whole possessions weren't worth one single gold coin.

I have repeatedly stated that different types of precious metals where used, including silver and bronze. Which poor families could afford, often coins where also divided, this is where the term quarter comes from for example. Currency has been used by most people for the majority of our known history, it is as old as civilization itself.

[iCEBREAKER]

Thanks to /u/bitcoinworld for demonstrating /r/btc is a haven for witch hunting, public lynchings, and mob rule.

An euphemism of an uncensored place. The infiltration failed. Sensor ship destroyed.

O RLY?

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3us1kl/free_jstolfi/

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3us1kl/free_jstolfi/cxioupa

Trollfi is welcome on /r/bitcoin (subject to the normal moderation/rules) but banned for no apparent reason from /r/btc.

So much for your "uncensored place."  That sensor ship has sailed.  

[brg444]

In those days some families whole possessions weren't worth one single gold coin.

I have repeatedly stated that different types of precious metals where used, including silver and bronze. Which poor families could afford, often coins where also divided, this is where the term quarter comes from for example. Currency has been used by most people for the majority of our known history, it is as old as civilization itself.

Great so you admit you were wrong.

That took some time!

(ps. you need to sharpen up on your writing style, reading you is akin to watching paint dry. have some character and don't be such a dull robot, will ya?)

[iCEBREAKER]

In those days some families whole possessions weren't worth one single gold coin.

I have repeatedly stated that different types of precious metals where used, including silver and bronze. Which poor families could afford, often coins where also divided, this is where the term quarter comes from for example. Currency has been used by most people for the majority of our known history, it is as old as civilization itself.

Great so you admit you were wrong.

That took some time!

(ps. you need to sharpen up on your writing style, reading you is akin to watching paint dry. have some character and don't be such a dull robot, will ya?)

That's good advice.  VS's word economy is atrocious.  I can read the first 5 words, then glaze over and tl;dr the rest of his rambling.

Maybe he just likes to hear himself talk.   

Brevity is the soul of wit, qualities VS is lacking in spades.

[VeritasSapere]

In those days some families whole possessions weren't worth one single gold coin.

I have repeatedly stated that different types of precious metals where used, including silver and bronze. Which poor families could afford, often coins where also divided, this is where the term quarter comes from for example. Currency has been used by most people for the majority of our known history, it is as old as civilization itself.

Great so you admit you were wrong.

That took some time!

(ps. you need to sharpen up on your writing style, reading you is akin to watching paint dry. have some character and don't be such a dull robot, will ya?)

Gold and silver coins sometimes mixed with copper and other precious metals.

[brg444]

I'm confused  

First you argue...

I think Bitcoin can do both, and that these different aspects of Bitcoin actually reinforce each other. I also do not think Bitcoin will become a world reserve currency without experiencing mass adoption as a currency for the people first, history also certainly supports this theory as well.

to which I reply...

It doesn't.

hdbuck, always the sharp guy, understands what is being insinuated...

did "teh mass" ever had gold in any meaningful way?

hmnope.

By now I'd expect your are still clueless as to what it is I'm trying to lead you to so, to be clear, the argument goes:

Something does not need to be "mass adopted" for it to become a "world reserve currency".

It just needs to be the predilect form of money for relevant* economic actors in the society. Case in point: gold.

*masses != relevant

[Cconvert2G36]

hdbuck, always the sharp guy, understands what is being insinuated...

did "teh mass" ever had gold in any meaningful way?

hmnope.

  Tell me another one... 

But at least you understand that BIP101 will increase the risk of centralization. However for SW proposal, I totally don't understand anything at all: By changing the bitcoin architecture, Pieter essentially change it to something else, an alt-coin. So all the talks about SW should go into alt-coin section, not here. And all this large degree of deviation from Satoshi's original design for what? A mere one time increase for capacity of light nodes, not even helping full nodes?

I've been quite surprised by your reaction to this proposal.

It's as if you're being intentionally obtuse because clearly you are making no effort at understanding SW and overexagerate its complexity.

Whether or not you agree with its motivations and underlying ideology SW is pretty straight forward.

straight forward in cutting out the cryptographic signatures out of the blockchain... to allow more spam.

thank you but no thank you.

forkers should create their own altcoin already.

[VeritasSapere]

I'm confused  

First you argue...

I think Bitcoin can do both, and that these different aspects of Bitcoin actually reinforce each other. I also do not think Bitcoin will become a world reserve currency without experiencing mass adoption as a currency for the people first, history also certainly supports this theory as well.

to which I reply...

It doesn't.

hdbuck, always the sharp guy, understands what is being insinuated...

did "teh mass" ever had gold in any meaningful way?

hmnope.

By now I'd expect your are still clueless as to what it is I'm trying to lead you to so, to be clear, the argument goes:

Something does not need to be "mass adopted" for it to become a "world reserve currency".

It just needs to be the predilect form of money for relevant* economic actors in the society. Case in point: gold.

*masses != relevant

First of all I do not appreciate you quoting me saying something that I never said, please refrain yourself from doing this, you have done this before and it is libel, slander and fraud.

My argument is that commodity money in the form of precious metal coins, have been the predominant form of currency for the majority of our known history, this is true. Furthermore that Bitcoin will not become a world reserve currency without mass adoption first. Unless you seriously believe that the banks and current financial status quo will voluntarily give up their source of power thereby in effect weakening their position, it is safe to assume that most people will not give up their power, this is well established in political thought and psychology.

We can circumvent and undermine their systems of command and control instead by adopting Bitcoin, only then would the status quo have to adopt Bitcoin in order to stay relevant. In regards to history supporting my argument, it does. You are missing out on the fact that during the long transition phase where we went from precious metals being the predominant form of currency moving towards paper money, this paper was still backed by gold. It was only until the nineteen seventies that the gold standard was abandoned completely. This is why my historical example still holds true.

In other words, after precious metals ceased to be the predominant form of currency, paper backed by precious metals became the predominant form of currency in the world, in this case gold. Over time of course this asset was eroded, first by fractional reserve banking in the nineteen thirties and later by the complete abolishment of the gold standard in the seventies. Therefore the masses did have gold in a meaningful way, this asset has been stolen from the people. This is the bait and switch that has been played on us by the governments and banks. Bitcoin allows us to have a true asset based currency again, a return to sound money. Money for the people by the people.

[brg444]

I wet my bed at night

[brg444]

VeritasSapere's worst nightmare:

[tl121]

hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

How much bandwidth is Core using per month? What are your maximum download/upload speeds from your ISP (and how much does it cost)? How many peers are you connected to on a regular basis? Do you have any special settings in your config file (fee rules or connection limits)?

I have dedicated hardware for my node (building computers is a hobby of mine, so I probably go overboard there), yet sharing Bitcoin data with my peers is where I am having issues. I've had to limit the number of peers that my node will allow or my internet service slows to a crawl for other purposes. I pay quite a bit for top tier (enthusiast) internet speeds from a major ISP.

Or, are you simply saying that your old computer can sync the chain at which point you shut it down?

I have 50 mbps down 10 mbps up with no cap residential ADSL. Running all three blockchains as a full node with ports open is about 400 GB per month.

Edit: I added the no cap option for an extra 15 CAD a month, The plan comes with 400 GB of data per month. Cost including a home POTS phone line is 132.50 CAD a month including all taxes.

I have similar speeds (faster download, same upload) and our discussion convinced me to increase the maxconnections allowed by my node to 50 (from 30). In a span of 6 days, my node downloaded 5 GB and uploaded 110 GB of block chain data.

The problem is that during this span, I often have a noticeable slow down of other internet traffic. During these times of heavy Core uploading, web traffic slows to a crawl and streaming video is out of the question. If my ISP offered a faster (upload) tier, I would purchase it, but I do not have the option. I live in a relatively (to the rest of the world) developed location. If I lived in a more remote (less developed) area, or had to send all of my Bitcoin traffic through ToR (I shouldn't need to explain why that could become a reality), I would have an even more difficult time running a full node. If the amount of data I need to share is drastically increased, I would have a difficult time at my current location.

I'm not great with the QoS settings on my router or perhaps I could improve my experience. Perhaps some of the changes coming to Core that I've read about will help. In the meantime, I've had to reduce the maxconnections allowed. I just can't see how anyone would want to drastically increase the amount of data needed to be shared while going through the same user experience as me.

I think Core should remain something that a Bitcoin enthusiast (willing to spend a decent amount of money doing so) like myself can continue to run semi-easily, even if circumstances arise which may make that more difficult (certain groups deciding that Bitcoin data should be censored, for example).

In other words, the network should remain robust ("lite and tight" as tvbcof would say).

Any quality peer to peer software, such as a reasonable bittorent client, comes with a control window that can be configured to limit upload bandwidth.  If you set this to about 50% of your available upload bandwidth through your ISP then any problems with slow response will be avoided.  For some years I used this technique with bittorrent clients and file sync programs.  I was appalled when I started running bitcoin and discovered that the client lacked these elementary features.  I was even more appalled after I complained and some of the core developers tried to make excuses for this sad situation.  Lately, the talk from a (former?) core developer is that this deficiency will be "fixed in the next release" of Bitcoin Core.

There are two things you can do to get around this problem.  First, do not open port 8333.  This will eliminate the possibility of newbies leaching off of your limited bandwidth to download the entire block chain.  Second, figure out how to set up the QoS features in your router.  After you have done this you may then want to try reopening port 8333 in your router.  With an open port and a QoS setting, you may still find a fair amount of upload traffic.  You can limit this by configuring your node to use a modest number of ports.  When I was running an open port on my node over a DSL connection, I found that about 30 ports total gave me about the same upload traffic as download traffic, i.e. my node was contributing as much bandwidth to the network as it was using.

If you are interested in running a full bitcoin node with an open port, be prepared for a bunch of hassles, up to and including being a target of a DDoS attack.  If you are just interested in using bitcoin and don't want to get into a bunch of technical details it would be better to just run a lightweight client, such as Electrum or Multibit HD, both of which install and run quickly with no hassles.

[VeritasSapere]

hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

How much bandwidth is Core using per month? What are your maximum download/upload speeds from your ISP (and how much does it cost)? How many peers are you connected to on a regular basis? Do you have any special settings in your config file (fee rules or connection limits)?

I have dedicated hardware for my node (building computers is a hobby of mine, so I probably go overboard there), yet sharing Bitcoin data with my peers is where I am having issues. I've had to limit the number of peers that my node will allow or my internet service slows to a crawl for other purposes. I pay quite a bit for top tier (enthusiast) internet speeds from a major ISP.

Or, are you simply saying that your old computer can sync the chain at which point you shut it down?

I have 50 mbps down 10 mbps up with no cap residential ADSL. Running all three blockchains as a full node with ports open is about 400 GB per month.

Edit: I added the no cap option for an extra 15 CAD a month, The plan comes with 400 GB of data per month. Cost including a home POTS phone line is 132.50 CAD a month including all taxes.

I have similar speeds (faster download, same upload) and our discussion convinced me to increase the maxconnections allowed by my node to 50 (from 30). In a span of 6 days, my node downloaded 5 GB and uploaded 110 GB of block chain data.

The problem is that during this span, I often have a noticeable slow down of other internet traffic. During these times of heavy Core uploading, web traffic slows to a crawl and streaming video is out of the question. If my ISP offered a faster (upload) tier, I would purchase it, but I do not have the option. I live in a relatively (to the rest of the world) developed location. If I lived in a more remote (less developed) area, or had to send all of my Bitcoin traffic through ToR (I shouldn't need to explain why that could become a reality), I would have an even more difficult time running a full node. If the amount of data I need to share is drastically increased, I would have a difficult time at my current location.

I'm not great with the QoS settings on my router or perhaps I could improve my experience. Perhaps some of the changes coming to Core that I've read about will help. In the meantime, I've had to reduce the maxconnections allowed. I just can't see how anyone would want to drastically increase the amount of data needed to be shared while going through the same user experience as me.

I think Core should remain something that a Bitcoin enthusiast (willing to spend a decent amount of money doing so) like myself can continue to run semi-easily, even if circumstances arise which may make that more difficult (certain groups deciding that Bitcoin data should be censored, for example).

In other words, the network should remain robust ("lite and tight" as tvbcof would say).

Any quality peer to peer software, such as a reasonable bittorent client, comes with a control window that can be configured to limit upload bandwidth.  If you set this to about 50% of your available upload bandwidth through your ISP then any problems with slow response will be avoided.  For some years I used this technique with bittorrent clients and file sync programs.  I was appalled when I started running bitcoin and discovered that the client lacked these elementary features.  I was even more appalled after I complained and some of the core developers tried to make excuses for this sad situation.  Lately, the talk from a (former?) core developer is that this deficiency will be "fixed in the next release" of Bitcoin Core.

There are two things you can do to get around this problem.  First, do not open port 8333.  This will eliminate the possibility of newbies leaching off of your limited bandwidth to download the entire block chain.  Second, figure out how to set up the QoS features in your router.  After you have done this you may then want to try reopening port 8333 in your router.  With an open port and a QoS setting, you may still find a fair amount of upload traffic.  You can limit this by configuring your node to use a modest number of ports.  When I was running an open port on my node over a DSL connection, I found that about 30 ports total gave me about the same upload traffic as download traffic, i.e. my node was contributing as much bandwidth to the network as it was using.

If you are interested in running a full bitcoin node with an open port, be prepared for a bunch of hassles, up to and including being a target of a DDoS attack.  If you are just interested in using bitcoin and don't want to get into a bunch of technical details it would be better to just run a lightweight client, such as Electrum or Multibit HD, both of which install and run quickly with no hassles.

Bitcoin XT has a bandwidth throttling option, which is a useful feature to have. Bitcoin Unlimited will be implementing this as well when it is released.

[iCEBREAKER]

Bitcoin XT has a bandwidth throttling option, which is a useful feature to have. Bitcoin Unlimited will be implementing this as well when it is released.

XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

[Cconvert2G36]

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

[iCEBREAKER]

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

You are confusing soft forks (segwitness) and hard forks (XT/Unlimiturd).

I don't think segwit will happen anytime Soon.  If/when it's implemented, it will be because of a genuine need as agreed/recognized by the socioeconomic majority, not because of a whining Gavinista minority of Redditurd bury brigades.

[Cconvert2G36]

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

You are confusing soft forks (segwitness) and hard forks (XT/Unlimiturd).

I don't think segwit will happen anytime Soon.  If/when it's implemented, it will be because of a genuine need as agreed/recognized by the socioeconomic majority, not because of a whining Gavinista minority of Redditurd bury brigades.

So you disagree with hdbuck and MP. How about when we fork to a modest 2MiB while segwit is tested? Altcoin?

[iCEBREAKER]

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

You are confusing soft forks (segwitness) and hard forks (XT/Unlimiturd).

I don't think segwit will happen anytime Soon.  If/when it's implemented, it will be because of a genuine need as agreed/recognized by the socioeconomic majority, not because of a whining Gavinista minority of Redditurd bury brigades.

So you disagree with hdbuck and MP. How about when we fork to a modest 2MiB while segwit is tested? Altcoin?

2MB = HARD FORK = ALTCOIN = FAIL

IDK what hdbuck and MP think about segwit (SOFT fork).  Links?