[BTC-TC] Virtual Community Exchange [CLOSED]

[Puppet]

The only question that really bothers me is why indeed not sell the website to someone trustworthy living in more some of the less regulated countries?  I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to choose from.

IANAL but just moving the website probably isnt going to be enough, as long as its accessible to (among others) US customers.
Moreover the asset issuers based in just about any industrialized country would still be breaking the law by issuing unregulated securities.

[1715555808]

1715555808

[1715555808]

1715555808

[Bitcycle]

The only question that really bothers me is why indeed not sell the website to someone trustworthy living in more some of the less regulated countries?  I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to choose from.

IANAL but just moving the website probably isnt going to be enough, as long as its accessible to (among others) US customers.
Moreover the asset issuers based in just about any industrialized country would still be breaking the law by issuing unregulated securities.

That's not Burnside's problem if someone wants to buy it.

[Puppet]

No, but its doesnt solve anything for anyone either.

[subwolf]

Panic selling only causes you to make a big loss, in my case I'm holding onto my shares for a while to see if they can be transferred elsewhere without having to lose them all.

[desired_username]

Hey guys, how about we stop all the hating and insulting in this thread already?
Ethan is a nice guy, he has been very reliable and trustworthy, and he still is.  He's just doing his best dealing with the extreme circumstances beyond his control.  If he wanted to rip you off or anything, he would already do so long ago.  Your panicking, hating and insulting don't contribute anything positive to the situation.  So please be patient and STFU, would you?  KTHX

The only question that really bothers me is why indeed not sell the website to someone trustworthy living in more some of the less regulated countries?  I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to choose from.

+1.

Expressing hate won't do anything positive.

I would be interested on how to transfer my assets though. I suppose issuers should be in contact with us. Individually making contact is not very efficient in my opinion.

[wizzardTim]

Will you transfer our assets (NEOBEE) elsewhere?

[Rannasha]

Hey guys, how about we stop all the hating and insulting in this thread already?
Ethan is a nice guy, he has been very reliable and trustworthy, and he still is.  He's just doing his best dealing with the extreme circumstances beyond his control.  If he wanted to rip you off or anything, he would already do so long ago.  Your panicking, hating and insulting don't contribute anything positive to the situation.  So please be patient and STFU, would you?  KTHX

The only question that really bothers me is why indeed not sell the website to someone trustworthy living in more some of the less regulated countries?  I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to choose from.

+1.

Expressing hate won't do anything positive.

I would be interested on how to transfer my assets though. I suppose issuers should be in contact with us. Individually making contact is not very efficient in my opinion.

Keep an eye on the threads related to the assets you hold, some issuers have already made some statements on their plans.

[BitCsByBit]

burside should have locked the trading until all asset issuers respond to their share holders to prevent any panic selling.

[Ytterbium]

Let me make a guess.

The term ‘‘security’’ means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement,collateral-trust certificate,
preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share,
investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or
other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege
on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value
thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered
into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly
known as a ‘‘security’’, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any
of the foregoing
http://www.sec.gov/about/laws/sa33.pdf

How do you reckon,  are btct shares and options not securities? And before you start claiming "its in bitcoin", it doesnt matter:

) The term ‘‘sale’’ or ‘‘sell’’ shall include every contract of
sale or disposition of a security or interest in a security, for
value. The term ‘‘offer to sell’’, ‘‘offer for sale’’, or ‘‘offer’’ shall
include every attempt or offer to dispose of, or solicitation of
an offer to buy, a security or interest in a security, for value

It doesnt say dollars. Bitcoins constitute value, the SEC has already established that in the Pirateat40 case.

Is the US government going to start going after EVE online players?  You can sell ISK for real money too.

Where do you draw the line between "video game money" and "real money"?

[Ytterbium]

burside should have locked the trading until all asset issuers respond to their share holders to prevent any panic selling.

Well, he obviously hasn't been to worried about that lately...

[Puppet]

Is the US government going to start going after EVE online players?  You can sell ISK for real money too.

Where do you draw the line between "video game money" and "real money"?

Pirate tried that defense too, see how far that got him.
I dont play eve, so I dont know, there may well be legal issues, but the securities being traded on BF/BTCT relate directly to real world companies and operations, and non trivial ones for that. I dont see much grey zone to hide in.

[thehun]

There is something I don't understand: why close down the sites instead of selling it or giving it over to someone else? I'm sure there would be people interested in continuing the venture and even paying some money for the takeover.

[Ytterbium]

Is the US government going to start going after EVE online players?  You can sell ISK for real money too.

Where do you draw the line between "video game money" and "real money"?

Pirate tried that defense too, see how far that got him.

Well we don't know how far it will get him, his case is just getting started.

I dont play eve, so I dont know, there may well be legal issues, but the securities being traded on BF/BTCT relate directly to real world companies and operations, and non trivial ones for that. I dont see much grey zone to hide in.

BF isn't even in the US.  What is it with people who think the SEC has global authority?

[Ytterbium]

There is something I don't understand: why close down the sites instead of selling it or giving it over to someone else? I'm sure there would be people interested in continuing the venture and even paying some money for the takeover.

Then they wouldn't get to be a drama queen.

[Pierre]

Deposits. Are they working? How many confirmations before my BTC shows up in my wallet?

[radiumsoup]

Is the US government going to start going after EVE online players?  You can sell ISK for real money too.

Where do you draw the line between "video game money" and "real money"?

Pirate tried that defense too, see how far that got him.

Well we don't know how far it will get him, his case is just getting started.

I dont play eve, so I dont know, there may well be legal issues, but the securities being traded on BF/BTCT relate directly to real world companies and operations, and non trivial ones for that. I dont see much grey zone to hide in.

BF isn't even in the US.  What is it with people who think the SEC has global authority?

US law enforcement agencies have a tendency to overstep their bounds in almost everything they do. As for the SEC specifically:
https://www.sec.gov/about/offices/oia.shtml

/US citizen
//edit: wrong URL

[Deprived]

Deposits. Are they working? How many confirmations before my BTC shows up in my wallet?

They work fine on both exchanges - it's 3 confirmations for BTC-TC and 6 for LTC-Global.

[crumbs]

...
Is the US government going to start going after EVE online players?  You can sell ISK for real money too.

Where do you draw the line between "video game money" and "real money"?

Probably at the point where everyone involved calls it real money and the "it's all make-believe!1" argument gets repeatedly pwnt by the courts?

[Puppet]

Well we don't know how far it will get him, his case is just getting started.

There has already been a ruling which is more relevant to the current situation than whether or not pirate misled its investors and ran a ponzi (that is what is yet to be proven, but no one seriously doubts the outcome):

Shavers argues that the BTCST investments are not securities because Bitcoin is not money, and is not part of anything regulated by the United States
So Shavers essentially tried to say that Bitcoin is a bauble and that he was taking in digital points and giving out digital points that had no real world value. The prosecutors at the SEC disagree, arguing that Bitcoins “are both investment contracts and notes, and, thus, are securities.”
..
the judge sided with the SEC, giving Bitcoin his stamp of approval as real world money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/07/federal-judge-rules-bitcoin-is-real-money/

Thats your "EVE defense" shot down right there in a legal precedent.  If that applies to BTCST, I dont really see how you think its not going to apply to all the other instruments on BF/BTCT.

I havent read such a ruling yet about EVE, but I wouldnt even bet that we never will.

BF isn't even in the US.  What is it with people who think the SEC has global authority?

Does it matter where the site is hosted, where the operator lives, or where the business is being conducted? Similar regulations exist all over the world too.
Moreover, many of the asset issuers are in the US.

[SimonL]

Hey guys, how about we stop all the hating and insulting in this thread already?
Ethan is a nice guy, he has been very reliable and trustworthy, and he still is.  He's just doing his best dealing with the extreme circumstances beyond his control.  If he wanted to rip you off or anything, he would already do so long ago.  Your panicking, hating and insulting don't contribute anything positive to the situation.  So please be patient and STFU, would you?  KTHX

The only question that really bothers me is why indeed not sell the website to someone trustworthy living in more some of the less regulated countries?  I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to choose from.

Indeed, the shrill finger pointing and hand-waving is incredibly childish. No doubt they've invested more than they can afford to lose, and now they're looking to lash out and blame anyone but themselves.

I reckon the reason for not selling may be a legal one, he may have been ordered to close down the site, and that being the case there is no way he can simply sell it. I think there is a lot of things going on that we aren't aware of just yet (or perhaps we never will). Luckily all the information is available so that the shares can be traded on other sites.