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Author Topic: [ANN][PIVX] - PRIVATE INSTANT VERIFIED TRANSACTION - PROOF OF STAKE - ZEROCOIN  (Read 744595 times)
AngusCanine
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July 15, 2017, 06:14:24 AM
 #8461

The Zerocoin protocol requires a trusted setup. The risk with this specific protocol is the trusted party is able to mint an unlimited amount of coins. I see no documentation from these developers on how they plan to proceed with the initialization. All they've managed to do here is hire a decent graphic designer and post a bunch of whitepapers from other projects.. this doesn't equal credibility nor should it warrant investment.

A word of investment advice from someone who has specialized in the privacy vertical since 2013 - stay away from projects that don't have the necessary talent to release their own whitepapers or properly address concerns such as this achilles heel. Every time there is a major pump in cryptocurrency world its always followed up with a few projects promising Zerocoin. The only one still around is Anoncoin, whose lead dev is also the lead of the i2p project. They've been pioneering the RSA-UFO process for years without success even despite possessing the technical qualifications.

Unless this project has a cryptographer advising or working with them I would advise that you stay away. The underlying foundation of any cryptocurrency is cryptography and if a team doesn't know what they are doing they will run the risk of causing you financial exposure. This is even more important when dealing with distributed privacy protocols whose weak design and/or implementation can lead to imprisonment, persecution and death.

If this project was legit they would of released a whitepaper before they launched addressing their methods to achieve a trustless implementation. The lack of one proves otherwise.

Quote from:  Zerocoin Whitepaper
Our protocol assumes a trusted setup process for generating the parameters… accumulator trapdoor (p; q) can be destroyed >>immediately after the parameters are generated.

This is a serious flaw. All past transactions can be revealed with knowledge of (p,q). How can i trust the developers to destroy the (p,q)?

Quote from:  Zerocoin Whitepaper
"Alternatively, implementers can use the technique of Sander for generating so-called RSA UFOs for accumulator parameters without a trapdoor [26]."

I looked the paper and noticed: 1) this is probabilistic algo; 2) it can be performed by a single person — and again we need to trust. How exactly can it be implemented in p2p network like bitcoin without requiring trust?

Moreover: if trapdoor (p,q) will eventually recovered by some factorization method all past transaction will be revealed and new setup procedure will be required.
zerocash needs a trusted i don't think zerocoin does or at least Zcoin didn't they used some kind of RSA encryption or something of that nature

Both protocols call for a trusted party setup with the exception of the RSA UFO method as per the Zerocoin whitepaper (https://wiki.anoncoin.net/RSA_UFO). Zcoin (the altcoin) also used a trusted initialization.
 
Quote from: zcoin.io/ufaqs/what-parameters-does-zcoin-use-for-its-setup
Zcoin would eventually shift to a different cryptographic scheme for its setup parameters or move to a trustless setup entirely.
IMO, it's another worthless project profiting off uniformed investors. Anyone paying more than $.01 per coin for either project is out of their minds. I called the Zcoin developer out in his slack channel when the project launched last year and told their community the same thing. The community has to trust that the developers aren't minting their own coins and bleeding them into the market. At that point you might as well deal with a central bank's printing press and the FX market.


https://isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf - It's there on page 6 of this doc.  Thanks for the warning about this, any devs care to comment about this issue?

Interesting discussion and ideas:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCoin/comments/1tplgt/please_help_us_implement_zerocoin/

My pleasure. I usually avoid these types of posts because cryptocurrency communities are tribalistic in nature, which usually leads to cultist denial followed up by personal attacks on the messenger. Although, I felt obligated since nobody has brought this up after 427 pages and more than likely the majority here are new to this technology.
the zerocoin protocol has a coin supply that can be audited unlike zerocash

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July 15, 2017, 09:35:09 AM
 #8462

My pleasure. I usually avoid these types of posts because cryptocurrency communities are tribalistic in nature, which usually leads to cultist denial followed up by personal attacks on the messenger. Although, I felt obligated since nobody has brought this up after 427 pages and more than likely the majority here are new to this technology.

So you're saying that once PIVX moves to full time Zerocoin and the initial parameters are retained, the devs could fiddle the coin supply without anyone knowing?  Or would that become apparent because there's a known supply?    Anyway I was just in the PIVX Development slack and asked a few questions, and sounds like there's no real white paper worthy solution to this as yet.
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July 15, 2017, 10:19:49 AM
 #8463

My pleasure. I usually avoid these types of posts because cryptocurrency communities are tribalistic in nature, which usually leads to cultist denial followed up by personal attacks on the messenger. Although, I felt obligated since nobody has brought this up after 427 pages and more than likely the majority here are new to this technology.

So you're saying that once PIVX moves to full time Zerocoin and the initial parameters are retained, the devs could fiddle the coin supply without anyone knowing?  Or would that become apparent because there's a known supply?    Anyway I was just in the PIVX Development slack and asked a few questions, and sounds like there's no real white paper worthy solution to this as yet.

so far I just see ya writing on the subject and not key people involved  Smiley nothing shall gets released unless it is fully vetted some have already bet not small amounts in advance that it is (key in any investment for *after* often its way too late)

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
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July 15, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
 #8464

so far I just see ya writing on the subject and not key people involved  Smiley nothing shall gets released unless it is fully vetted some have already bet not small amounts in advance that it is (key in any investment for *after* often its way too late)

Is that a "just shut up and wait" ?  Ok, fine. I intend to be a long term PIVX holder but am wary of hidden issues and false promises due to past experiences in BTC land.
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July 15, 2017, 10:47:33 AM
 #8465

so far I just see ya writing on the subject and not key people involved  Smiley nothing shall gets released unless it is fully vetted some have already bet not small amounts in advance that it is (key in any investment for *after* often its way too late)

Is that a "just shut up and wait" ?  Ok, fine. I intend to be a long term PIVX holder but am wary of hidden issues and false promises due to past experiences in BTC land.


or you could put money in some of the red areas that are raging in the market right now!  Cool  I wont tell ya my trading strategy that would disturb Nash game theory principles  Cool

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
B1tUnl0ck3r
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July 15, 2017, 02:26:33 PM
 #8466

Nice to see some very interesting discussion here today! What a pleasure and surprise, a problem with slack?

In my opinion, any form of trust setup is a trap in itself. The point of cryptos is to be able to use trustless system.

zerocash needs a trusted i don't think zerocoin does or at least Zcoin didn't they used some kind of RSA encryption or something of that nature

https://isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf - It's there on page 6 of this doc.  Thanks for the warning about this, any devs care to comment about this issue?

Interesting discussion and ideas:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCoin/comments/1tplgt/please_help_us_implement_zerocoin/

Thanks for sharing those links.

The Zerocoin protocol requires a trusted setup. The risk with this specific protocol is the trusted party is able to mint an unlimited amount of coins. I see no documentation from these developers on how they plan to proceed with the initialization. All they've managed to do here is hire a decent graphic designer and post a bunch of whitepapers from other projects.. this doesn't equal credibility nor should it warrant investment.

A word of investment advice from someone who has specialized in the privacy vertical since 2013 - stay away from projects that don't have the necessary talent to release their own whitepapers or properly address concerns such as this achilles heel. Every time there is a major pump in cryptocurrency world its always followed up with a few projects promising Zerocoin. The only one still around is Anoncoin, whose lead dev is also the lead of the i2p project. They've been pioneering the RSA-UFO process for years without success even despite possessing the technical qualifications.

Unless this project has a cryptographer advising or working with them I would advise that you stay away. The underlying foundation of any cryptocurrency is cryptography and if a team doesn't know what they are doing they will run the risk of causing you financial exposure. This is even more important when dealing with distributed privacy protocols whose weak design and/or implementation can lead to imprisonment, persecution and death.

If this project was legit they would of released a whitepaper before they launched addressing their methods to achieve a trustless implementation. The lack of one proves otherwise.

Quote from:  Zerocoin Whitepaper
Our protocol assumes a trusted setup process for generating the parameters… accumulator trapdoor (p; q) can be destroyed >>immediately after the parameters are generated.

This is a serious flaw. All past transactions can be revealed with knowledge of (p,q). How can i trust the developers to destroy the (p,q)?

Quote from:  Zerocoin Whitepaper
"Alternatively, implementers can use the technique of Sander for generating so-called RSA UFOs for accumulator parameters without a trapdoor [26]."

I looked the paper and noticed: 1) this is probabilistic algo; 2) it can be performed by a single person — and again we need to trust. How exactly can it be implemented in p2p network like bitcoin without requiring trust?

Moreover: if trapdoor (p,q) will eventually recovered by some factorization method all past transaction will be revealed and new setup procedure will be required.
zerocash needs a trusted i don't think zerocoin does or at least Zcoin didn't they used some kind of RSA encryption or something of that nature

Both protocols call for a trusted party setup with the exception of the RSA UFO method as per the Zerocoin whitepaper (https://wiki.anoncoin.net/RSA_UFO). Zcoin (the altcoin) also used a trusted initialization.
 
Quote from: zcoin.io/ufaqs/what-parameters-does-zcoin-use-for-its-setup
Zcoin would eventually shift to a different cryptographic scheme for its setup parameters or move to a trustless setup entirely.
IMO, it's another worthless project profiting off uniformed investors. Anyone paying more than $.01 per coin for either project is out of their minds. I called the Zcoin developer out in his slack channel when the project launched last year and told their community the same thing. The community has to trust that the developers aren't minting their own coins and bleeding them into the market. At that point you might as well deal with a central bank's printing press and the FX market.


https://isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf - It's there on page 6 of this doc.  Thanks for the warning about this, any devs care to comment about this issue?

Interesting discussion and ideas:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCoin/comments/1tplgt/please_help_us_implement_zerocoin/

My pleasure. I usually avoid these types of posts because cryptocurrency communities are tribalistic in nature, which usually leads to cultist denial followed up by personal attacks on the messenger. Although, I felt obligated since nobody has brought this up after 427 pages and more than likely the majority here are new to this technology.
the zerocoin protocol has a coin supply that can be audited unlike zerocash

Thank you both to share your opinions. It's very refreshing to read it. Because what ever is said by devs or a marketing team, or even if I was part of the trusted setup, real money in the market will not get fooled. Zerotrust is the key factor to master.

so far I just see ya writing on the subject and not key people involved  Smiley nothing shall gets released unless it is fully vetted some have already bet not small amounts in advance that it is (key in any investment for *after* often its way too late)

Is that a "just shut up and wait" ?  Ok, fine. I intend to be a long term PIVX holder but am wary of hidden issues and false promises due to past experiences in BTC land.


Nope, please it's the all interest of this unmoderated post. What ever questions or doubts that you have will most likely be shared by others in the market place.

So from our cumulative knowledge one real advantage that zerocoin protocol has over zerocash is that at least the coin supply can be checked.

Thank you again for your contributions to the topic!

My pleasure. I usually avoid these types of posts because cryptocurrency communities are tribalistic in nature, which usually leads to cultist denial followed up by personal attacks on the messenger. Although, I felt obligated since nobody has brought this up after 427 pages and more than likely the majority here are new to this technology.

So you're saying that once PIVX moves to full time Zerocoin and the initial parameters are retained, the devs could fiddle the coin supply without anyone knowing?  Or would that become apparent because there's a known supply?    Anyway I was just in the PIVX Development slack and asked a few questions, and sounds like there's no real white paper worthy solution to this as yet.

No, it seems that this problem of unchecked coin supply is with zerocash, the question is to know if the implementation of zerocoin protocol is trustless.

Btw it was asked a few pages earlier and no clear answer was given.
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July 15, 2017, 02:53:05 PM
 #8467

pivx dump?
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July 15, 2017, 04:32:28 PM
 #8468

pivx dump?

congratulations, you win the best comment award on the forum ! and to answer you, pivx pump ?

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July 15, 2017, 05:36:48 PM
 #8469

pivx dump?

congratulations, you win the best comment award on the forum ! and to answer you, pivx pump ?

lol, lets turn this to (for times are stressful, not! for some maybe) to a humor run like on slack or maybe not, nice write up by B1tUnl0ck3r as per usual

da wallet release with zcoin protocol shall be glorious

maybe a slight tip for the community dont worry about BTC it shall bounce back hard

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
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July 16, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
 #8470

record breaking on approach trajectories, temporary price fluctuations are irrelevant

http://178.254.23.111/~pub/DN/DN_Info.html

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
qgmurugan007
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July 17, 2017, 12:40:54 AM
 #8471

Its amazing how PIVX is holding its value at this time of altcoin dump.
Shows the coin's true potential.
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July 17, 2017, 05:16:18 PM
 #8472

first signals of major BTC recovery are beginning to arrive

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
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July 17, 2017, 06:14:18 PM
Last edit: July 17, 2017, 08:15:38 PM by q327K091
 #8473

Last Price
$2,137.99
24 Hour Change
$222.79
24 Hour Range
$1,836.66 – $2,150.01

towards 3 grand and > and once its starts rolling this time it aint stopping

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
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July 18, 2017, 01:10:52 PM
 #8474

all is lifting up nicely call me sage

and you all see this yeah : https://twitter.com/_pivx?lang=en . has to be best crypto community created ever soon backed up by strong tech with nice separation from dash core and unique features 100% privacy guarantee non withstanding

so thats that have a wonderful week!

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
oleksii777
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July 18, 2017, 03:54:29 PM
 #8475

Yes, indeed, the coin shows its resilience in the crypto currency market!
----
Its amazing how PIVX is holding its value at this time of altcoin dump.
Shows the coin's true potential.
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July 18, 2017, 07:02:42 PM
 #8476

One of the largest and most active community in crypto, one of the most actively developed coins . It is really impressive, there is no doubt PIVX will succeed and i'm inclined to believe it will overtake Dash. I sound like a shill/holder but i'm not, i was and i want to buy again Smiley
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July 18, 2017, 07:15:03 PM
 #8477

let me see if I can find password to slack... that slack is just awesome it truly is, brings fun to crypto like no other...

overall, and a tip to the community (I was correct on btc call ha? and not the first time) unless a thermonuclear war breaks out we are going up

would refrain in general from dash bashing etc , master node concept is probably what software engineers call "a killer app" it it facilities ultra fast transactions times and choice of the encryption protocol is also a solid one , it shall have 0 problem running efficiently on ie ARM processors and the like

dash shall do fine and space is large enough to accommodate various technologies so please dont do it (negatives) from both sides thanks...

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
q327K091
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July 19, 2017, 01:02:15 PM
Last edit: July 19, 2017, 01:17:52 PM by q327K091
 #8478

a yeah and boom, sage delivers again and like a clock work $2.04 (20.02%) would hold off till selling if any we are going much much higher and no artificial pump either

new upcoming awesome coin

the Gulden Coin: GKWHEPx3rQyPnbgQUSHu8gtgoRCgpqed1j
noobtrader
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July 19, 2017, 01:23:31 PM
 #8479

wow price rises to ath again Huh

very awesome, congratz everyone   Cool

"...I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism...",  satoshi@vistomail.com
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July 19, 2017, 01:58:05 PM
 #8480

wow price rises to ath again Huh

very awesome, congratz everyone   Cool

Zerocoin protocol implementation.
raise 100% in one day sure. 
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