Butterfly Labs November Update (ASIC Chips are "flawed". Delays.)

[elux]

ASIC Update 26 November 2012

I have been waiting to have more solid information but it's still not available to me at this moment and I'm going to bed soon, so I wanted to put out an update before I hit the sack.

While I can't give a hard date and say "absolutely" this is the date, it looks like the week of the 11th, but that's the "fuzzy" date I have at the moment and I'm waiting on confirmation on a not-fuzzy date from the foundry right now. There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed and it pushed the date out, plain and simple. We are as frustrated with this process as everyone else is and we apologize for the delays. Contrary to some of the trolls over on Bitcoin Talk, we fully intended to start shipping at the end of October, but with a project as complex as this, even our built in padding has proved to be a bit inadequate to deal with all the moving parts, and we will have slipped by ~6 weeks after all is said and done.

The good news is that our shipment of chips will be substantial and we are re-addressing the quantities and compacting the shipment dates. We will have just shy of 100,000 chips available and in our hands before the end of the year, coming in two waves. The first wave will hopefully be the week of the 11th (probably more towards the end I'm guessing) and the second wave will be just before the end of the year. This is enough chips to cover all pre-orders and a lot more besides. This extra time also allows us to make some refinements we wanted to make to a few components, but more importantly, we may have just enough time to get a custom metal or silicon QFN package ready for the rev1 shipments (should know this week), and if that's the case, it will make rev1 boards ridiculously efficient at heat elimination. Originally this was going to be for Rev2 if we didn't go with a flip-chip design (but this would require a lot more work than our custom packaging) - but the extra time we are forced to endure is going to be put to good use.

Once again, we apologize for the delays. We hate them as much as everyone else (probably more), but as the competitors are experiencing as well, sometimes you are at the mercy of other people's schedules and problems. As we said months ago, we are trying to eliminate as many of those points of failure as possible by bringing everything we can in house. Of course, we can't bring a fab in house, so we are at their mercy at the moment. Once we get the chips in our hands, we will have a sufficient enough quantity to see us through until the next order and it should allow us to get up and running in house or at least make good headway into that arena.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a.html

Selling on the Internet: Prompt Delivery Rules

By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

Meaning: In the hypothetical scenario that BFL did in fact abide by the law, anyone with open pre-orders should expect their money back any day now. I expect no such thing.

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.
Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping.
Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/

[1715445576]

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[shwoop]

No need for more BFL threads.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112700.msg1360147#msg1360147

[SgtSpike]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

[elux]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

[crazyates]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

How did you get that from what he just said? If it's 30 days after Jan 1st, then they've broken the law.

[Tinua]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

I do not understand your problem?
Until now, BFL has refunded allways the full amount, if someone has canceled his order!
So, cancel your order and stop the crap

[SgtSpike]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

Let me quote you.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

Their promised time was January 1st.  They have broken no laws, and if it is indeed delayed to January 1st, they have offered anyone a full refund.  Heck, they're even going beyond their original agreement, and have thus far given everyone a refund who has requested it.

[Coinoisseur]

"Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012. "

Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window. Now speculation on whether they will fail to ship by Jan 1st and then declare bankruptcy citing huge amounts of refund requests, that's a different area of what ifs.

[punin]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

I do not understand your problem?
Until now, BFL has refunded allways the full amount, if someone has canceled his order!
So, cancel your order and stop the crap

Apparently there are some problems with refunds: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/441-refund-not-getting-processed.html

[Tinua]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

I do not understand your problem?
Until now, BFL has refunded allways the full amount, if someone has canceled his order!
So, cancel your order and stop the crap

Apparently there are some problems with refunds: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/441-refund-not-getting-processed.html

I see exactly 1 post   And this after thanks giving weekend and 2000 mails in the mailbox!
What does that say?

[bitmar]

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.

Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window.

What refund? They spent all (most) money on (unsuccessful?? ) ASIC project. If they fail to produce hardware to January 1st 2013 , you forget about the refund. Only hope that they will succeed. No bank will give them a loan.

[Coinoisseur]

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.

Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window.

What refund? They spent all (most) money on (unsuccessful?? ) ASIC project. If they fail to produce hardware to January 1st 2013 , you forget about the refund. Only hope that they will succeed. No bank will give them a loan.

Didn't they say something about an anonymous venture capitalist backer, pretty sure that was in their initial ASIC project announcements. 

[greyhawk]

Didn't they say something about an anonymous venture capitalist backer, pretty sure that was in their initial ASIC project announcements. 

I hope it's a Chinese relic hunter millionaire.

[AndrewBUD]

Didn't they say something about an anonymous venture capitalist backer, pretty sure that was in their initial ASIC project announcements. 

I hope it's a Chinese head hunter millionaire.

FTFY

[elux]

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.
Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window.

No. It was changed from October.

So will the BitForce SC product line REALLY come out in October? This is a fair question.  Let's review our track record.  If you're not aware, our initial product, the BitForce Single had a slow delivery cycle.  This was initially due to a last minute design change before initial product release.  When we did release it, we weren't quite prepared for the explosive success we had.  After several rounds of scaling, single delivery is in sufficient volume to catch up quickly. The Mini Rig product release has followed it's development and release timeline pretty well.  Initial deliveries aren't far from estimates and the speed of production is on pace to ensure most customers will get their Mini Rigs ahead of schedule. The SC product line has been under development for quite some time and is not the result of an expedited development process.  Although there are always issues during development, our team is highly experienced in exactly this field and we're currently ahead of our original timeline.  Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

See: http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-release-notes/

Then came the first delay announcement, where they moved shipping to "early November". Then came today's delay announcement.

Didn't they say something about an anonymous venture capitalist backer, pretty sure that was in their initial ASIC project announcements. 

Yes.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm

Retail sales have continued to grow strongly, and with exponential month-to-month sales increases, the decision to back BFL was made easily. “Butterfly Labs has strong fundamentals indicative of the kind of rapid growth company we support,” the private equity group notes. “Having made bold investments in new technology, they’re poised to redefine the landscape for SHA-256 hash verification.”

[greyhawk]

I love how even in their own press releases they don't use full names for their officers. That's trust inspiring.

[Bitinvestor]

I love how even in their own press releases they don't use full names for their officers. That's trust inspiring.

I never get tired of this gem:

Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design, ...

 

[elux]

I love how even in their own press releases they don't use full names for their officers. That's trust inspiring.

How to read a press release: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88416.0

I can think of a few reasons a person would conceal his name.
 - felony convictions
 - SEC violations
 - previous bankruptcies
 - history of civil lawsuits over business practices
 - registered sex offender status

[MPOE-PR]

Ouch.

I guess it's a good thing that everyone knows 20k BTC is "but a tiny fraction" of what BFL's worth, seeing how that means they'll be able to do refunds.

[bitmar]

I was wrong, they will wait until 1BTC be worth 1000 $, then a refund will be possible 

[bitmar]

They have stated that the refund/ship-by date is January 1st.  They never guaranteed a shipment prior to this date, only said it was possible.

Does US consumer protection law not apply to BFL?

How did you get that from what he just said? If it's 30 days after Jan 1st, then they've broken the law.

So, BFL has a chance to go down in history 

[Bogart]

They should sell the bare "dud" chips as souvenirs.

[bcpokey]

They should sell the bare "dud" chips as souvenirs.

Not a bad idea really, earrings, necklaces, keychains. Turn a negative into a positive. Though I think they need to deliver a working product before people are in a good enough mood to buy those heh.

[davidspitzer]

Just to save everyone the time and cut down on the post clutter here are all the BFL Conspiracy theories in one post:

J. Edgar Hoover created a hit squad made up entirely of homosexuals "to assassinate JFK." "If, after the 'hit,' the street clothes were changed to "flamboyant/gayish" attire, would those people have been detained/questioned as any "normal/regular" looking individual on the street that day, or would they have been ignored as "homosexuals" that couldn't possibly have committed such a horrendous act?" J. Edgar was frozen and later revived and is now running BFL

The Preorders are all rigged  "Bitcoins go up and up. People with get rich quick fever are willing to wait in a line just like the ones for bread in the former Soviet Union for the pipe dream of striking it rich."

We already have cures for cancer but the government has re-purposed all of the chips used to find it in order to make ASIC gear at BFL

Redheads are the offspring of aliens and have been quietly infiltrating BFL in order to seed mind control hardware disguised as ASIC gear

Sono Bono was murdered [on the ski slope] because he was going to expose BFL shipping delays

There is a concentration camp under the Denver International Airport. It has an 8 level underground military base, a gas chamber... and it's rumored that there is genetic experiments taking place. People who cancel their BFL preorders are sent there

Fox News broadcasts invisible signals that affect your sense of smell. “Fox News Channel --- though it might not be the only one, has inaudile/invisible signals that are being broadcast with the audiovisual that's consciously perceived by the viewers." The ASIC gear are repeaters for this signal and soon everything in the world will smell like raspberry tarts

BFL is spearheading the efforts between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico to become one country.

The number on the back of your social security card is a World Bank account number where BFL is depositing your Preorder money, “there is a form that you can fill out to get that money back from the government, but if you do that you become marked as a “person of interest”

Dentists are putting small microwave-type things in your teeth. “Dentist are putting small microwave type things in your teeth! This is the only way that BFL is able to deliver such high hash rates with their new gear

BFL employees are actually shape shifters. “BFL top brass are actually aliens dressed as humans. I have eye witnessed  Josh blinking very fast then his eyes went completely black then back to normal. Aliens are really walking amongst us now to monitor us”

BFL has fine print saying the company is not responsible for any surveillance done through it gear by the US government.

[AndrewBUD]

You got it all wrong. JFK was shot by his driver.

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

I was wrong, they will wait until 1BTC be worth 1000 $, then a refund will be possible 

Dude they get their Bicoin payments through Bitpay, which means they never actually accept a Bitcoin. All is converted to U.S. dollars before it enters their account.

[bitmar]

Just to save everyone the time and cut down on the post clutter here are all the BFL Conspiracy theories in one post:

J. Edgar Hoover created a hit squad made up entirely of homosexuals "to assassinate JFK." "If, after the 'hit,' the street clothes were changed to "flamboyant/gayish" attire, would those people have been detained/questioned as any "normal/regular" looking individual on the street that day, or would they have been ignored as "homosexuals" that couldn't possibly have committed such a horrendous act?" J. Edgar was frozen and later revived and is now running BFL

The Preorders are all rigged  "Bitcoins go up and up. People with get rich quick fever are willing to wait in a line just like the ones for bread in the former Soviet Union for the pipe dream of striking it rich."

We already have cures for cancer but the government has re-purposed all of the chips used to find it in order to make ASIC gear at BFL

Redheads are the offspring of aliens and have been quietly infiltrating BFL in order to seed mind control hardware disguised as ASIC gear

Sono Bono was murdered [on the ski slope] because he was going to expose BFL shipping delays

There is a concentration camp under the Denver International Airport. It has an 8 level underground military base, a gas chamber... and it's rumored that there is genetic experiments taking place. People who cancel their BFL preorders are sent there

Fox News broadcasts invisible signals that affect your sense of smell. “Fox News Channel --- though it might not be the only one, has inaudile/invisible signals that are being broadcast with the audiovisual that's consciously perceived by the viewers." The ASIC gear are repeaters for this signal and soon everything in the world will smell like raspberry tarts

BFL is spearheading the efforts between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico to become one country.

The number on the back of your social security card is a World Bank account number where BFL is depositing your Preorder money, “there is a form that you can fill out to get that money back from the government, but if you do that you become marked as a “person of interest”

Dentists are putting small microwave-type things in your teeth. “Dentist are putting small microwave type things in your teeth! This is the only way that BFL is able to deliver such high hash rates with their new gear

BFL employees are actually shape shifters. “BFL top brass are actually aliens dressed as humans. I have eye witnessed  Josh blinking very fast then his eyes went completely black then back to normal. Aliens are really walking amongst us now to monitor us”

BFL has fine print saying the company is not responsible for any surveillance done through it gear by the US government.

I see more legitimate concerns than conspiracy theories.  BFL has a plan B or C, we keep our fingers crossed, but customers also need to be protected from the potential failure, BFL risking their money. People do not see the progress of BFL, there are more delays and failures. PCB photos are worth nothing, every electronics engineer can do this. So it is what it is.

[MPOE-PR]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

[AndrewBUD]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I'll quote this for the people that ignore you and boobies

[DiabloD3]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I'll quote this for the people that ignore you and boobies

I LOVE BOOBIES

-- Signed, The Male League to Promote Boobies, 301st Tit Watching Corps

[davidspitzer]

meaningless bullshit removed

lack of humor deleted

Eom

[bitmar]

I was wrong, they will wait until 1BTC be worth 1000 $, then a refund will be possible 

Dude they get their Bicoin payments through Bitpay, which means they never actually accept a Bitcoin. All is converted to U.S. dollars before it enters their account.

Damn, I thought it would be any chance  
But they can buy 5000BTC and withhold the refund     Or build a large FPGA mine,  or maybe they already have one, they gathered a lot of money...   (subtle conspiracy theory )

[davidspitzer]

End of message

[repentance]

Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311

It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.  BFL's a small enterprise and even people whose role is purely technical must be aware that with the slip in shipping dates customers want both explanations of what's happening and information about when they can really expect to receive their ASICs.

[bitboyben]

@davidspitzer  Hilarious!

[bitmar]

Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311

It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.  BFL's a small enterprise and even people whose role is purely technical must be aware that with the slip in shipping dates customers want both explanations of what's happening and information about when they can really expect to receive their ASICs.

Information about the flawed chips caused such a fuss and doing a bad reputation BFL. The truth was uncomfortable so they had to change it.  Funny discrediting And then people wonder why others do not trust them... I think there is no need now to explain.

[tbcoin]

BFL's reputation really does not matter , we already buy, and those who didn't, they would not do anyway until our orders were shipped.

They already had a bad reputation for FPGA delays and didn't mind

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

We just have to be patient

[MPOE-PR]

It's more than ridiculous that Josh is not being kept informed of things like this.

Alternatively, the chips are in fact duds and the announcement was a feeler, BFL wanted to see just how well it shall be received. In this perspective they decided it's not being received well at all.

Duh.

But I am sure that this has nothing to do with the unexplained increase in specs which happened just about the time competition was coming out with better efficiency promises. That surely was legitimate.

Duh.

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

It's a classical run. If you get your refund order in fast you have a hope of being repaid before too many other people ask for a refund and they realize they're fucked.

[bcpokey]

BFL's reputation really does not matter , we already buy, and those who didn't, they would not do anyway until our orders were shipped.

They already had a bad reputation for FPGA delays and didn't mind

Request your money back by mistrust seems absurd, if you don't trust in they delivery your order, why would you trust they send you money back?

We just have to be patient

Not really true, reputation of course matters. Both for retaining customers (as a US based business they don't get to just "not refund" with no consequences, even if it might be onerous to follow up on), and gaining new orders, to whit:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-2.html#

There is someone who claims to be buying MORE BFL products after announcement of delays, because they were at least telling them something. Reputation is definitely worth something.

[greyhawk]

There is someone who claims to be buying MORE BFL products after announcement of delays, because they were at least telling them something. Reputation is definitely worth something.

Yeah, but according to the guy's photostream, he's pretty much piss drunk all day everyday, so he's probably not the most sensible guy anyway.

[scrybe]

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012.

Which is why they set January 1st 2013 as the refund start date, ~30 days from the November window.

What refund? They spent all (most) money on (unsuccessful?? ) ASIC project. If they fail to produce hardware to January 1st 2013 , you forget about the refund. Only hope that they will succeed. No bank will give them a loan.

FALSE!

They have investors that gave them VC to perform work, they do not get to recognize the revenue (be able to spend it) in the pre-order account for any order until they ship the product for that order. They went into debt, they hope to pay it off after shipping plus a profit. Either way customers are entitled to a product or refund before the investors are allowed to collect in the event of a bankruptcy.

IIRC, IANAL, URADS

Try to troll some more, your attempts are humorous, if futile.

[greyhawk]

I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.

[MrTeal]

I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.

A joint investigation involving the IRS-CID and the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS), revealed that from at least 1990 through July 2006, SONNY VLEISIDES, James Ray Houston, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, and others committed a massive international lottery scam using the following company names: Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Wor'dwide Verification Service, and others. VLEISIDES ran the scheme along with Houston and Emmett. VLEISIDES, Houston and Emmett, who were all located in Costa Rica, worked with mailing houses which, at the direction of VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett, sent out tens of thousands of mailings to victims in the United States, many of whom were elderly. The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win. The mailings directed the victims to send their money to Ireland, at d the Netherlands, among other locations, where William Cloud had set up addresses with commercial mail receiving agencies and individuals to forward the money, eventually, back to the United States. After receipt at the commercial mail receiving agencies, the victims' money was sent to Henry Walther, who, along with his son Scott Henry Walther, deposited the money into various bank accounts and then distributed it as directed by VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett. Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity. Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings. The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use. VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

...

An analysis was done on approximately twenty of the bank accounts established in the United States at the direction of VLEISIDES and his co-schemers. The analysis revealed, in summary, that the victims' money was first deposited into accounts established by the co-schemers at numerous banks in accounts with names that sound like official lotteries: SHAMROCK AGENCY, WORLD EXPERT, OLD AMSTERDAM, GERMAN SWISS, and EUC. (Hereinafter, accounts at this first layer will be referred to as "Deposit Accounts.") The co-schemers obtained over $19 million from tens of thousands of victims and deposited them into these accounts. After the co-schemers deposited the victims' money into the Deposit Accounts, they transferred the money to the next layer of accounts, hereinafter referred to as "Payment Accounts." These accounts were in names that included NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT and EU PAYMENT SERVICE. From the Payment Accounts, the co-schemers wrote checks represented as winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" was far less than the amount the victims sent in - for the over $19 million going into the accounts from victims, only approximately 20% was sent back to victims in the form of "winning" checks. The co-schemers transferred some of the money from the Deposit Accounts and Payment Accounts to the next layer of accounts, which will hereinafter be referred to as "Syphon Accounts." The co-schemers wrote checks (or used wire transfers) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts, which were in names that included WESTERN INTERNET, BUTTERFIELD, CARNEGIE and HENRY WALTHER ATTORNEY WIRE ACCOUNT. Money from the Syphon Accounts was used to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to the co-schemers. The co-schemers also took money at each layer in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106417808/Affidavit-for-Extradition-Warrant

Venture Capital!

[Bogart]

Apparently even people within BFL itself don't keep Josh updated on what's happening.  According to Nasser, the chips are not flawed and the delay is being caused by BFL making changes.

There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-4.html#post6311

I liked the "chips were flawed" excuse better.  It makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than "we decided to add clock buffers".

If I were BFL, and I had chips that hashed, I would ship them out the door first thing.  Leave the performance optimizations for subsequent generations.  I think that's what their customers would prefer.

It's not clear to me whether Nasser is talking about revising the ASIC chips themselves, or if he is referring to a board-level change.

[tacotime]

chips don't exist?

add clock buffers.

[beekeeper]

chips don't exist?
...
add clock buffers.

What Nasser means is that over a certain clock frequency chips start to behave erratic and they fix it by adding clock buffers. There are steps in ASIC design which should prevent this, however. Even so, it's hard to decide who's fault is. I bet BFL consider its foundry fault.

[elux]

I had venture capitalists invest in me once for about 18 years. Called em Mom and Dad. Good times. Good times.

A joint investigation involving the IRS-CID and the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS), revealed that from at least 1990 through July 2006, SONNY VLEISIDES, James Ray Houston, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, and others committed a massive international lottery scam using the following company names: Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Wor'dwide Verification Service, and others. VLEISIDES ran the scheme along with Houston and Emmett. VLEISIDES, Houston and Emmett, who were all located in Costa Rica, worked with mailing houses which, at the direction of VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett, sent out tens of thousands of mailings to victims in the United States, many of whom were elderly. The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win. The mailings directed the victims to send their money to Ireland, at d the Netherlands, among other locations, where William Cloud had set up addresses with commercial mail receiving agencies and individuals to forward the money, eventually, back to the United States. After receipt at the commercial mail receiving agencies, the victims' money was sent to Henry Walther, who, along with his son Scott Henry Walther, deposited the money into various bank accounts and then distributed it as directed by VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett. Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity. Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings. The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use. VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

...

An analysis was done on approximately twenty of the bank accounts established in the United States at the direction of VLEISIDES and his co-schemers. The analysis revealed, in summary, that the victims' money was first deposited into accounts established by the co-schemers at numerous banks in accounts with names that sound like official lotteries: SHAMROCK AGENCY, WORLD EXPERT, OLD AMSTERDAM, GERMAN SWISS, and EUC. (Hereinafter, accounts at this first layer will be referred to as "Deposit Accounts.") The co-schemers obtained over $19 million from tens of thousands of victims and deposited them into these accounts. After the co-schemers deposited the victims' money into the Deposit Accounts, they transferred the money to the next layer of accounts, hereinafter referred to as "Payment Accounts." These accounts were in names that included NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT and EU PAYMENT SERVICE. From the Payment Accounts, the co-schemers wrote checks represented as winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" was far less than the amount the victims sent in - for the over $19 million going into the accounts from victims, only approximately 20% was sent back to victims in the form of "winning" checks. The co-schemers transferred some of the money from the Deposit Accounts and Payment Accounts to the next layer of accounts, which will hereinafter be referred to as "Syphon Accounts." The co-schemers wrote checks (or used wire transfers) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts, which were in names that included WESTERN INTERNET, BUTTERFIELD, CARNEGIE and HENRY WALTHER ATTORNEY WIRE ACCOUNT. Money from the Syphon Accounts was used to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to the co-schemers. The co-schemers also took money at each layer in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106417808/Affidavit-for-Extradition-Warrant

Venture Capital!

No venture capitalist would touch this with a ten foot pole. That much is completely obvious.

The "private equity group" is either money from the nineteen-million-dollar scam or a flat out lie.

Note on Due Diligence in Venture Capital

Investment Potential – Once the investment proposal is deemed to “fit” with the
philosophy of the firm, a screening is conducted to test the viability of the deal.
Although screening is unique to a particular firm’s needs, there are some common
threads that a firm evaluates.
• Management – Generally speaking, one of the most important criteria in the
screening process is the quality of management. In real estate it is often said
that the three most important words are “location, location, location.” In
evaluating a business, many venture firms will proclaim the three most
important words to be “people, people, people."

http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pecenter/research/pdfs/due_diligence.pdf

[BR0KK]

I still can't believe why people preorder with these statements:

Code:

The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win.

Code:

VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

?

[repentance]

If I were BFL, and I had chips that hashed, I would ship them out the door first thing.  Leave the performance optimizations for subsequent generations.  I think that's what their customers would prefer.

This is one reason I wonder whether the chips even exist yet.  If another company ships first, people are going to cancel their BFL orders in droves.  Many will probably cancel their BFL orders come 1 January whether or not another company ships first.  If they have any working chips at all, it would make sense for them to ship something ASAP, even if it's only the low-end jalapenos (hell, they can even offer to let people have the chips exchanged later). 

[freecoin]

BFL ownership may not be lily-white, but consider who is running the best scam in the world and don't lose sight of it.  Central banking has more victims than all other cons combined.  In fact, if you walk around with Federal Reserve notes in your pocket, you're considered a reserve bank. You're in signature contract with a private cartel, you've been scammed by the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU6fxC5CXMg

Fortunately, mining and using bitcoin helps end that scam.

[Unacceptable]

Just to save everyone the time and cut down on the post clutter here are all the BFL Conspiracy theories in one post:

Redheads are the offspring of aliens and have been quietly infiltrating BFL in order to seed mind control hardware disguised as ASIC gear

[monstrs]

It seems not everyone is understanding that even BFL cant predict all problems that may have. Yes, they promised to deliver in october, but that was way long time ago and different problems can and is appearing. Be patient, if not, request payemnt, cant see any problem here.

[psilan]

You know the BFL rigs are ready when tradeins are requested to be sent back, or at least a tradein email-in plan is sent out.
This should be at least 1 weeks notice.

[MPOE-PR]

chips don't exist?

add clock buffers.

Lol. Cheap meme generator ftw!

This is one reason I wonder whether the chips even exist yet.  If another company ships first, people are going to cancel their BFL orders in droves.  Many will probably cancel their BFL orders come 1 January whether or not another company ships first.

Seems dubious anyone cares that BFL is saying "you have to wait till January". It's not particularly legal nor legitimate, and the sorts of money involved certainly make something a la Caldwell going after Bitcoinica more likely than "oh, let us send Nefario flowers" in case they refuse refunds.

[greyhawk]

BFL ownership may not be lily-white, but consider who is running the best scam in the world and don't lose sight of it.  Central banking has more victims than all other cons combined.  In fact, if you walk around with Federal Reserve notes in your pocket, you're considered a reserve bank. You're in signature contract with a private cartel, you've been scammed by the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU6fxC5CXMg

Fortunately, mining and using bitcoin helps end that scam.

Also in China they eat babies.

[repentance]

It seems not everyone is understanding that even BFL cant predict all problems that may have. Yes, they promised to deliver in october, but that was way long time ago and different problems can and is appearing. Be patient, if not, request payemnt, cant see any problem here.

The problem is that some people were silly enough to count on being to earn BTC with ASICs before the block reward halved and borrowed BTC on that basis.  Some were probably even silly enough to count on ASIC mining funding their Christmas spending, too.

Seems dubious anyone cares that BFL is saying "you have to wait till January". It's not particularly legal nor legitimate, and the sorts of money involved certainly make something a la Caldwell going after Bitcoinica more likely than "oh, let us send Nefario flowers" in case they refuse refunds.

They maintain that they have sufficient funds on hand to refund pre-orders.  A more interesting question is whether people will continuing ordering ASICs - from anyone - now that they know BFL alone is going to be throwing 100,000 chips at the network.  Is so much power going to be thrown at the network by the ASIC vendors combined that people will give up mining rather than keep spending large sums to earn no more than they're earning now?

[MPOE-PR]

now that they know BFL alone is going to be throwing 100,000 chips at the network. 

They don't know BFL is making 100k chips. They know BFL would like them to think this, and that however many chips BFL was going to make, it's now going to be 100k less.

[Aseras]

I wonder how much money it would take to bribe a Chinese foundry to purposely fark some companies chip runs a few times to get an edge?

[Badonkadonk]

can we have any more threads about this shit allready? god...

[BFL-Engineer]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

[AndrewBUD]

Are you saying that you guys already have a working chip that needed improvements?

Like others have said why not put people at ease and show the community this "slower" working chip in action.



Would it not make sense to release this slower chip to miner devs to have working software?


 

[bitmar]

Like others have said why not put people at ease and show the community this "slower" working chip in action.

why ? Because it is a top secret project of BFL + NASA + FBI + Obama 
BFL likes to boast about proof of success, they showed a lot of photos. If they would have working chips that would also be shown. Now just fix their PR. The news about defective chips frightens new customers. It is a wise strategy.

[AndrewBUD]

That's why I think they changed the story.


If they had a working chip they would be pushing it in everyones face... They would get more orders because their the first to show a working prototype.

But nothing but stories and delays..



Why not get the miner dev's an underclocked working prototype so we have working software for these ASIC's?

[Korbman]

Why not get the miner dev's an underclocked working prototype so we have working software for these ASIC's?

+1

I'm not sure I'm understanding the operational and PR processes BFL is going through on all this. In this case, because the product is very much still in R&D, it doesn't need to be absolutely perfect in every way before the customer sees a prototype. Just show me a board with some chips hashing on a test network...it may have noise, heat, wattage, hashing, or other problems, but at least it would be known that it does exist and does work.

I can take pictures of circuit boards with chips on them all day..doesn't mean they work though 

Come on BFL..give us something to work with here.

[wormbog]

That's why I think they changed the story.


If they had a working chip they would be pushing it in everyones face... They would get more orders because their the first to show a working prototype.

But nothing but stories and delays..



Why not get the miner dev's an underclocked working prototype so we have working software for these ASIC's?

Anything they show by video will be immediately dismissed as a fake.

If they send early release devices to a few operators, everyone will be howling about how unfair it is that a few inner-circle people get to use the hardware while the difficulty is still low.

BFL needs to invite a BTC-savvy reporter in to review their pre-release hardware, someone with enough of a reputation to be widely perceived as legit.

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

People won't be pissed if the developers receive a freaking jalepeno. Period.

[Syke]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

You already have a chip with near 100% success and you postponed release so you could get even better than near 100% success? Right.

[PuertoLibre]

That's why I think they changed the story.


If they had a working chip they would be pushing it in everyones face... They would get more orders because their the first to show a working prototype.

But nothing but stories and delays..



Why not get the miner dev's an underclocked working prototype so we have working software for these ASIC's?

Anything they show by video will be immediately dismissed as a fake.

If they send early release devices to a few operators, everyone will be howling about how unfair it is that a few inner-circle people get to use the hardware while the difficulty is still low.

BFL needs to invite a BTC-savvy reporter in to review their pre-release hardware, someone with enough of a reputation to be widely perceived as legit.

You mean like Yochdog and Kano? Hows that going?

[AndrewBUD]

Kanoi said he has not heard anything.. No updates.

[PuertoLibre]

Kanoi said he has not heard anything.. No updates.

We should hire a resident nutjob to make like "Signs" as to when the BFL ASICs will ship. Then walk around with a sign in their Avatar.

The first sign will be when Kano and Yochdog appear at BFL.

The second sign is when BFL begins to gloat about their (actual) hardware.

The third sign, is when people receive emails to the effect that they must select their shipping service as a final check and confirmation.

Until these three are not fulfilled (he says in a Biblical tone) it shall not be!

[CoinHoarder]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

You already have a chip with near 100% success and you postponed release so you could get even better than near 100% success? Right.

Ya... um... THIS.  

[crazyates]

That's why I think they changed the story.

If they had a working chip they would be pushing it in everyones face... They would get more orders because their the first to show a working prototype.

But nothing but stories and delays..

Why not get the miner dev's an underclocked working prototype so we have working software for these ASIC's?

Anything they show by video will be immediately dismissed as a fake.

If they send early release devices to a few operators, everyone will be howling about how unfair it is that a few inner-circle people get to use the hardware while the difficulty is still low.

BFL needs to invite a BTC-savvy reporter in to review their pre-release hardware, someone with enough of a reputation to be widely perceived as legit.

You mean like Yochdog and Kano? Hows that going?

For those that don't know, BFL offered to fly 2 members of the community out and look at their new hardware, and confirm that they are worked as intended. In a vote on the BFL forums, Yochdog (a very trusted trader) and Kano (one of the developers of CGMiner) were chosen. Unfortunately, nothing has happened so far, and no plans have been made public.

Original thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112543.0

[michaelmclees]

When I asked them about this, they said they wouldn't send anyone until everything was up and running.  Personally, I think this is a waste of time.  It was always my opinion the visit should be to see their progress, whatever it may be.  BFL seems to have the opinion that it is a waste to send anyone with a camera until their basically shipping.  If that's the plan ... What's the point?

[MeSarah]

Is this the knitting circle with bitchy house wives I was looking for?

[AndrewBUD]

Is this the knitting circle with bitchy house wives I was looking for?

Naww.. Fat dudes with walking phobias

[Bogart]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

You said the same thing yesterday on the BFL forums.  It doesn't make any more sense when you say it again here today.

If you haz chips that are not critically flawed, Y U no ship dem?

If they don't perform up to spec, that is indeed a flaw.  Yet you say there is no flaw?

Hearing things like this that don't make sense is making the flocks restless.

[greyhawk]

Maybe someone at BFL went to the Duke Nukem Forever School of Hardware Design?

[psilan]

Maybe someone at BFL went to the Duke Nukem Forever School of Hardware Design?

Man that sucked when it came out.

[Starlightbreaker]

Maybe someone at BFL went to the Duke Nukem Forever School of Hardware Design?

or probably Valve with HL3.


but valve's a great company, unlike BFL...so i dunno.

[greyhawk]

Maybe someone at BFL went to the Duke Nukem Forever School of Hardware Design?

Man that sucked when it came out.

Both of them. At the same time.

[MinorMiner]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

[crazyates]

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

To someone like me, there's a very small difference between "Engineering oversight" and "Design flaw".

[MinorMiner]

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

To someone like me, there's a very small difference between "Engineering oversight" and "Design flaw".

Yea.. and as someone else said, they really need to be careful about what they say. BFL people may moan that everyone is deriding them but then they bring stuff on themselves with half-assed 'press releases' that seem to only serve to stir up worry and/or confusion.

[crazyates]

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

To someone like me, there's a very small difference between "Engineering oversight" and "Design flaw".

Yea.. and as someone else said, they really need to be careful about what they say. BFL people may moan that everyone is deriding them but then they bring stuff on themselves with half-assed 'press releases' that seem to only serve to stir up worry and/or confusion.

No my point is that I don't care. Those two mean almost the same thing to me.

[squeept]

They bring it on themselves? There was just a full page of gibberish insults because they added an 'ignore' button on their forum. If they shipped tomorrow, there would be a dozen fucking threads here complaining that they shipped early.

[AndrewBUD]

They bring it on themselves? There was just a full page of gibberish insults because they added an 'ignore' button on their forum. If they shipped tomorrow, there would be a dozen fucking threads here complaining that they shipped early.

LOL probably. Or that they didn't ship out enough units at once.

[Clearfly]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

Thats marketing speak and damage limitation.

I read it as voltage leakage (which is, as i understand it a risk on 65nm process). Either way it means chips are not in full production yet and issues are still being ironed out.

[Bogart]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

Thats marketing speak and damage limitation.

I read it as voltage leakage (which is, as i understand it a risk on 65nm process). Either way it means chips are not in full production yet and issues are still being ironed out.

IOW, a respin.

How many iterations do you suppose there have been already?  Do you suppose they were all high-volume "bullet runs", each with its own full-wafer mask set?

If it means a respin, the "week of the 11th" seems too soon, when it took 25+ days the last time.

[Frizz23]

How many iterations do you suppose there have been already?  Do you suppose they were all high-volume "bullet runs", each with its own full-wafer mask set?

This whole "bullet run" story Inaba/BFL_Josh told us stinks. You don't pay shitloads of money to bullet run a full lot (batch) of wafers just to figure out that your design is borked. There are always test wafers and test runs first. I am sure BFL did the same.

You don't do trial and error on full lots (50 wafers) scrapping thousands of chips. That would cost you hundreds of thousands of USD. In each iteration. That's just suicide!

Once your chip is OK (working prototype) you go into mass production.

So this shipment date October November December was a lie from the beginning on!

And now you tell us your Asian fab might be a bit untrustworthy. So you might get scammed because you've chosen some backroom fab. That's suicide No.2!

Question for BFL: Why did you fuck us over on purpose with your updates/PR?

[Bogart]

How many iterations do you suppose there have been already?  Do you suppose they were all high-volume "bullet runs", each with its own full-wafer mask set?

This whole "bullet run" story Inaba/BFL_Josh told us stinks. You don't pay shitloads of money to bullet run a full lot (batch) of wafers just to figure out that your design is borked. There are always test wafers and test runs. Once your chip is OK (working prototype) you go into mass production.

Sane Conservative hardware developers don't do things that way, but maybe BFL does?

It's pretty apparent by now that BFL as a whole seems to have a bit of a "cowboy attitude", much as is shown on their public face.

[ice_chill]

I now have even more respect for the skillful team at Enterpoint, right from the day the ASIC was announced, I remember Enterpoint team member saying that ASICs "always" end up having to go through a respin (sometimes more than one) to get it right, and that shipment before 2013 was very unlikely.

I just wish Enterpoint was too creating an ASIC.

[oztusk]

you may also preorder flying cars, they will be available any day now..

[elux]

you may also preorder flying cars, they will be available any day now..

Any day now for 40 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_Skycar

[Clearfly]

I now have even more respect for the skillful team at Enterpoint, right from the day the ASIC was announced, I remember Enterpoint team member saying that ASICs "always" end up having to go through a respin (sometimes more than one) to get it right, and that shipment before 2013 was very unlikely.

I just wish Enterpoint was too creating an ASIC.

Me Too!

Ztex also pointed out the issues with ASIC.

[DoogieHouser]

BFL ownership may not be lily-white, but consider who is running the best scam in the world and don't lose sight of it.  Central banking has more victims than all other cons combined.  In fact, if you walk around with Federal Reserve notes in your pocket, you're considered a reserve bank. You're in signature contract with a private cartel, you've been scammed by the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU6fxC5CXMg

Fortunately, mining and using bitcoin helps end that scam.

Great video!

[MeSarah]

We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further.

Sense most comments are pessimistic let me try to be optimistic by asking a question..

Is it possible that BFL is pushing their upper clock limit from 1 GHz to 1.5 GHz or even 2 GHz to squash the competition?

[PuertoLibre]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Okay, so 'BFL-Josh' says 'There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed' .. and now there isn't? Get on the same page, people.

Thats marketing speak and damage limitation.

I read it as voltage leakage (which is, as i understand it a risk on 65nm process). Either way it means chips are not in full production yet and issues are still being ironed out.

A wise man has just spoken!

[AfricanHunter]

This thread made me laugh like a 12 year old girl at multiple locations. Thanks for that, needed it after work today.  

Edit spelling

[Bogart]

We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further.

Sense most comments are pessimistic let me try to be optimistic by asking a question..

Is it possible that BFL is pushing their upper clock limit from 1 GHz to 1.5 GHz or even 2 GHz to squash the competition?

If that were the case, wouldn't they have just said so from the moment the delay was announced?  Instead we get some odd-sounding statement about them adding a few more nines onto their 99.999% chance of success.

And that's saying nothing of the damage caused just by any delay whatsoever, regardless of its cause.  Time is money in this game, more so than 'most anywhere else.

[MeSarah]

@ Bogart, your right. When "time is money in this game" it makes much more logical sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars for that extra 0.0009% improvement. Genius!! I think we have a Nobel Laureate candidate for economics here in Bogart.

Damage? Damage to what, BFL reputation? Half or more of the Bitcointalk community believes BFL is a scam.

BFL show's off pictures of PBC with 8 ASIC chips. Tom has his design firm redesign his ASIC offering to now have 8 ASIC chips. Monkey see, monkey do.

Do you know how magic works? It's all about misdirection.

[DiabloD3]

Maybe someone at BFL went to the Duke Nukem Forever School of Hardware Design?

Man that sucked when it came out.

Yeah, killed one of the best jokes the video game industry ever produced. Ironically, it became one of the worst jokes shortly after.

[eldentyrell]

chips don't exist?

add clock buffers.

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

[beekeeper]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny. 

[bitmar]

[eldentyrell]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

[beekeeper]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.

I know very well, I do this for a living.

[greyhawk]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

"I know! We'll just tell them something about clock buffers! There's no entry for that on Wikipedia, so they'll never know what we are talking about and people will instead acknowledge our technological prowess in awed silence. Go Go Gadget Misinformation Campaign!"

[Jaw3bmasters]

"I know! We'll just tell them something about clock buffers! There's no entry for that on Wikipedia, so they'll never know what we are talking about and people will instead acknowledge our technological prowess in awed silence. Go Go Gadget Misinformation Campaign!"

Yep.

[ngzhang]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

maybe they means add some buffers on the PCB ?

[tbcoin]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

maybe they means add some buffers on the PCB ?

To avoid surprises, you already know how many clock buffer must have your PCB? 

[MrTeal]

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

I hereby acknowledge that you are funny.  

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

maybe they means add some buffers on the PCB ?

You guys just don't get it, it was a typo. I've included an image of the updated board for reference.


Take that, competition. BFL products will be the only ones featuring exclusive access to Country Kitchen content, and will now run on fried chicken instead of electricity.

[BitcoinINV]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.<----- This is what people should really be pissed about, and its illegal

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I agree with you, wow that was hard to say.
 I  called this months ago... but I was a fud flinger.
Now I just want to go with told you so.   
People worried about the FTC call them, they will then connect you to the Attorney General's office file your complaint get real info. It is the only way BFL will release information which is sad.

[AndrewBUD]

CHICKEN..I gotta order me 10 Jalapeño chicken Caesar wraps.

[SLok]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.<----- This is what people should really be pissed about, and its illegal

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I agree with you, wow that was hard to say.
 I  called this months ago... but I was a fud flinger.
Now I just want to go with told you so.   
People worried about the FTC call them, they will then connect you to the Attorney General's office file your complaint get real info. It is the only way BFL will release information which is sad.

Months ago? Was that when BFL, not you, cancelled you whopping order for 1, yes 1, Jalapeno? So much to your regret, that ever since you try to convince people with this GA fud, with that BFL answer to that AG, the letter which you showed so proudly, but actually showed nothing of any importance at all, just BFL info anyone already knew?
That answer, to YOUR LETTER TO THAT AG THAT YOU WILL NOT SHOW HERE just like that letter from the AG DIRECTED AT YOU, after several requests, because it would prove that you actually have nothing?

[AndrewBUD]

Nothing + Nothing still equals Nothing.



People are pissed off at BFL, deal with it. People got their hopes up.

[BitcoinINV]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.<----- This is what people should really be pissed about, and its illegal

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I agree with you, wow that was hard to say.
 I  called this months ago... but I was a fud flinger.
Now I just want to go with told you so.  
People worried about the FTC call them, they will then connect you to the Attorney General's office file your complaint get real info. It is the only way BFL will release information which is sad.

Months ago? Was that when BFL, not you, cancelled you whopping order for 1, yes 1, Jalapeno? So much to your regret, that ever since you try to convince people with this GA fud, with that BFL answer to that AG, the letter which you showed so proudly, but actually showed nothing of any importance at all, just BFL info anyone already knew?
That answer, to YOUR LETTER TO THAT AG THAT YOU WILL NOT SHOW HERE just like that letter from the AG DIRECTED AT YOU, after several requests, because it would prove that you actually have nothing?

Posted both of them.... Where have you been? The fact that they were showing fake pics.. did that pass you to?
Stop drinking so much BFL koolaid its bad for your teeth.

[SLok]

Nothing + Nothing still equals Nothing.



People are pissed off at BFL, deal with it. People got their hopes up.

People have that right to be pissed off about BFL, hell I'm pissed off about BFL, but I'm not spreading fud or plain lies like bitcoininv or the guy he quoted.

[SLok]

meaningless bullshit removed

Here's the actual list:

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".

2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.<----- This is what people should really be pissed about, and its illegal

This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.

Enjoy.

(And yes, my personal opinion is that dud run = bankruptcy.)

I agree with you, wow that was hard to say.
 I  called this months ago... but I was a fud flinger.
Now I just want to go with told you so.  
People worried about the FTC call them, they will then connect you to the Attorney General's office file your complaint get real info. It is the only way BFL will release information which is sad.

Months ago? Was that when BFL, not you, cancelled you whopping order for 1, yes 1, Jalapeno? So much to your regret, that ever since you try to convince people with this GA fud, with that BFL answer to that AG, the letter which you showed so proudly, but actually showed nothing of any importance at all, just BFL info anyone already knew?
That answer, to YOUR LETTER TO THAT AG THAT YOU WILL NOT SHOW HERE just like that letter from the AG DIRECTED AT YOU, after several requests, because it would prove that you actually have nothing?

Posted both of them.... Where have you been? The fact that they were showing fake pics.. did that pass you to?
Stop drinking so much BFL koolaid its bad for your teeth.

You did not, I requested it several times in that topic, but can you be so kind and show me the link to them? And please stop that koolaid joke, it has a beard by now.

[creativex]

I saw the document he posted. Doesn't guarantee it's authenticity, but he did post a pic of a doc that was either the real deal or a really good fake.

[SLok]

I saw the document he posted. Doesn't guarantee it's authenticity, but he did post a pic of a doc that was either the real deal or a really good fake.

That was the answer from bfl at the ag  that was sent through to him. I'm asking for the complaint letter he sent to that ag, and the ag's answer HE got.

[squeept]

Yet nobody is going to the AG about bASIC. That's a little odd, isn't it?

[tacotime]

chips don't exist?

add clock buffers.

I hereby acknowledge tacotime as the source of all the awesomes in my new avatar.

Custom hardware forum has replaced alt coins as my new source of entertainment it seems

[creativex]

Yet nobody is going to the AG about bASIC. That's a little odd, isn't it?

Not sure I follow. bASIC didn't open for pre-order until much later.

[BitcoinINV]

Inaba said it was real, in a prior post where other documents were posted.

The worst part about this is, BFL has customers standing up for its company. Ask yourself would you stand up for Samsung or other companies if they were behaving the same way? That fact that the community rolls over in such a way is crazy, and if you stand up for something you feel is not right you have people attack you. I understand all the problems BFL is having and I called them from the start. I never once said BFL would not deliver a product. But I did say it would be New year before they anyone would ever see it. I also believe at the start BFL had nothing but a Idea, they pre-sold you a Idea and then built it. In normal circumstances that would be called a investment, but they spun it so it would be a "Pre-order". If BFL would have been past the "Idea" Phase and actually had some solid work done they would have been close to if not already shipped. If you do not believe me this is how BFL funded there new product do the math.
Singles X prices = X * 30% <---- Thats a HIGH estimate of profit per item.
Miniriges X Prices = X * 30%

This would be the working capital, and this does not subtract staff, rent, electric things of that nature. If you think they made that much money off FPGA's sales to pay for all this rethink it.

I just looked into that FTC thing about the 30 day's and must be re-authorized, its 100% on and they fined JR Reynolds tons of money for not complying to it.  
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

SLok
http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/59be4357-41f3-4377-b10f-3e8bd532da5f/Complaint-Form.aspx
and I posted this already Its a digital Complaint then I called and talked to Mrs. little.
All the AG asked me is if I was satisfied with the result of the case I had a choice to pursue or to mark as satisfied. I have not responded so the case is still pending.



Thread complete time to close

[squeept]

Yet nobody is going to the AG about bASIC. That's a little odd, isn't it?

Not sure I follow. bASIC didn't open for pre-order until much later.

And if you compare the timelines, BitcoinINV should have gone to the AG about bASIC about 2 weeks ago. Considering he cried to the AG (and we still can't really figure out why) approximately 3 months ago before even the FIRST BFL shipping delay was announced. That means bASIC is AHEAD of BFL on BitcoinINV's magical "I'm so upset and I don't know why!" timeline, yet he's only cried to mommy and daddy about BFL.

[Badonkadonk]

flame flame flame
defend defend defend
whine whine whine

/thread

[crazyates]

flame flame flame
defend defend defend
whine whine whine

/thread

Welcome to Bitcointalk

[Badonkadonk]

flame flame flame
defend defend defend
whine whine whine

/thread

Welcome to Bitcointalk

welcome to the internett you mean? 

[Frizz23]

And please stop that koolaid joke, it has a beard by now.

Since it seems you work for BFL (for free) - can you please send me some of this BFL koolaid? I am willing to pay 6 month in advance plus I promise that I will never question the existance of your BFL koolaid.

[MPOE-PR]

What's funny is this clock buffer business.  The clock tree is the most fragile and delicate part of a synchronous chip, and the hardest to troubleshoot.  I cannot imagine what made them think that this was going to make people any less concerned.

Quick, Marge, say something!

[MPOE-PR]

People have that right to be pissed off about BFL, hell I'm pissed off about BFL, but I'm not spreading fud or plain lies like bitcoininv or the guy he quoted.

First off, I'm a girl. Second off, lies? Where do you get off? What lies specifically?

[SLok]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

[BitcoinINV]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

Fire Inaba Hire this guy seems like he cares more.....

[elux]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

Dear SLok,

From what I understand, "Nasser G", a Paris, France based IT consultant is implied to have been recently promoted to CEO of Butterfly Labs.

"Nasser G" is employed by a bank in Paris. He has previously declined to answer questions regarding his employment on this forum.

"Nasser G" was titled Chief Technical Officer in a BFL press release dated June 15. 2002.

Some time ago, I made the thread:  Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence.

Some time later, it appears that the Chief Executive (CEO/President/Director) of BFL was fired or demoted in silence, to be replaced by "Nasser G" as Chief Executive, for reasons unknown.

If you or anyone else have corrections to make or new information to share, please do.

The corporate structure and internal workings of BFL are no less mysterious than a black box on the moon.

Which is a bit worrying, considering the circumstances.

[MPOE-PR]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

I guess this pretty much settles the point. The discussion was about Sonny Vleisides not Nasser the Nameless. You're an idiot, gtfo.

Nice move BFL, have a lying CEO, hope nobody notices. When somebody does notice lie a little more about it and de-CEO him w/o telling anyone. Make all sorts of spammy prwire releases, sure, but NOT anything about a new CEO, which is the absolute prime thing to report for any company. Wait a few more months, send random shill to pretend this never happened. Who knows, maybe it sticks this time.

BFL needs an S for scumbag in there somewhere.

[crazyates]

but NOT anything about a new CEO, which is the absolute prime thing to report for any company.

Last time I checked, BFL was not a publicly traded company. Which means they have ZERO obligation to make public any of the internal workings. They are not required to tell you who their CEO is, nor if/when they change CEOs.

[MPOE-PR]

but NOT anything about a new CEO, which is the absolute prime thing to report for any company.

Last time I checked, BFL was not a publicly traded company. Which means they have ZERO obligation to make public any of the internal workings. They are not required to tell you who their CEO is, nor if/when they change CEOs.

They are not legally required to. Which is completely besides the point.

[SLok]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

Dear SLok,

From what I understand, "Nasser G", a Paris, France based IT consultant is implied to have been recently promoted to CEO of Butterfly Labs.

"Nasser G" is employed by a bank in Paris. He has previously declined to answer questions regarding his employment on this forum.

"Nasser G" was titled Chief Technical Officer in a BFL press release dated June 15. 2002.

Some time ago, I made the thread:  Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence.

Some time later, it appears that the Chief Executive (CEO/President/Director) of BFL was fired or demoted in silence, to be replaced by "Nasser G" as Chief Executive, for reasons unknown.

If you or anyone else have corrections to make or new information to share, please do.

The corporate structure and internal workings of BFL are no less mysterious than a black box on the moon.

Which is a bit worrying, considering the circumstances.

Dear Elux,
From Coding in my sleep:
"Sonny Chris Vleisides is not the CEO, Chris Vleisides (his stepfather) is the President (as opposed to his natural father, James Ray Houston, who was listed on the indictment) and Nasser Ghoseiri is the CEO – the confusion is understandable what with all the similar names, step and biological fathers and BFL’s seeming hatred of titles. Sonny is an upper-level executive within the company, but he’s not the absolute head, nor is his stepfather.
Even if he were the CEO, the CEO doesn’t have the ability to arbitrarily run away with much of anything. Like most incorporated entities they have a board of directors. The CEO certainly has a lot of sway with the board, but not enough to take the money and run."
http://codinginmysleep.com/interview-with-sonny-vleisides/
I hope this eased your worries a bit. If not, sorry I could not be of any help.

@ Frizz23, or bitsnpieces, or Cpt. Nemo, or BFL_Lab_Rat, or whatever dress you are wearing tonight, nobody pays me, and the signature is a lottery ticket, but you already knew that. At least 3 of your identities complained about those signatures sofar, a minority I know, but it should have leaked through a bit to the rest of them.

[SLok]

1. The CEO is a convicted felon who     SV is not the CEO
1.a. Is in probation/supervised release.    1 out of 30 americans is, but not the CEO of bfl
1.b. Is prohibited by the terms of his deal from doing a number of things BFL is doing, such as taking money from people.  If so, he isn't doing what he shouldn't because he is not the CEO
1.c. Failed to disclose this; once discovered by 3rd parties he made a half-assed statement about "the mean government". Promised post with further details "over the weekend", never materialized.
Subjective conclusion, he has no obligation to tell anyone here anything. Don't like the company or employees, don't buy there

This was explained away on the vague theory that while convicted "he wasn't really guilty" and while the CEO "he doesn't really have anything to do with the company".
Well, he wasn't. What would satisfy you, him saying he was? Write bfl an email and ask?
2. BFL is a company that
2.a. Consistently made promises which were then not kept, such as to the time of delivery (blown in the past by 4 months +) and specifications of the items delivered (significantly larger power consumption).    estimates are not promises are they?
2.b. Consistently takes money from perspective customers in exchange for products that do not actually exist. These don't constitute pre-orders, even if BFL calls them that, but loans to the company.
   You do get the concept of pre-ordering don't you? If the stuff would exist, guess what, shipping it?
This was never explained other than "doing things is hard".   You haven't been paying attention

3. BFL PR is a guy who
3.a. Is a loudmouth just like I am, except he makes a lot less sense, rarely has a point and also lacks tits.   You make no sense at all, and you don't have balls too, plus I doubt you even have tits

I guess this pretty much settles the point. The discussion was about Sonny Vleisides not Nasser the Nameless. You're an idiot, gtfo.

Nice move BFL, have a lying CEO, hope nobody notices. When somebody does notice lie a little more about it and de-CEO him w/o telling anyone. Make all sorts of spammy prwire releases, sure, but NOT anything about a new CEO, which is the absolute prime thing to report for any company. Wait a few more months, send random shill to pretend this never happened. Who knows, maybe it sticks this time.

BFL needs an S for scumbag in there somewhere.

Sonny Vleisides is not the CEO, now you can nag and whine on, making me think you may indeed be a woman (sort of), that doesn't change facts.

[niko]

Last time I checked, BFL was not a publicly traded company. Which means they have ZERO obligation to make public any of the internal workings. They are not required to tell you who their CEO is, nor if/when they change CEOs.

That's a fair point. The only reason I was asking questions about BFL and people involved was that I was trying to make an informed decision on whether to give them my money in exchange for an almost anonymous promise to deliver ASIC miners by October/November. Since those reasonable questions (see "townhall meeting" thread) remained unanswered and ridiculed, I decided not to give them my money. At this point it is safe to say that, regardless what happens in the next month or two, I made a good decision.

[elux]

Dear SLok,

From what I understand, "Nasser G", a Paris, France based IT consultant is implied to have been recently promoted to CEO of Butterfly Labs.

"Nasser G" is employed by a bank in Paris. He has previously declined to answer questions regarding his employment on this forum.

"Nasser G" was titled Chief Technical Officer in a BFL press release dated June 15. 2002.

Some time ago, I made the thread:  Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence.

Some time later, it appears that the Chief Executive (CEO/President/Director) of BFL was fired or demoted in silence, to be replaced by "Nasser G" as Chief Executive, for reasons unknown.

If you or anyone else have corrections to make or new information to share, please do.

The corporate structure and internal workings of BFL are no less mysterious than a black box on the moon.

Which is a bit worrying, considering the circumstances.

Dear Elux,
From Coding in my sleep:
"Sonny Chris Vleisides is not the CEO, Chris Vleisides (his stepfather) is the President (as opposed to his natural father, James Ray Houston, who was listed on the indictment) and Nasser Ghoseiri is the CEO – the confusion is understandable what with all the similar names, step and biological fathers and BFL’s seeming hatred of titles. Sonny is an upper-level executive within the company, but he’s not the absolute head, nor is his stepfather.

Thanks. That is quite helpful. Let's take Sonny on his word and run with it...

I'll just quickly fire off some questions I've wondered about these last few months.
I do realize that BFL has no obligation to answer these questions, but being polite, helpful and forthcoming would be nice for a change.

Besides, why not answer these questions, assuming there's nothing left to hide?


Some unanswered questions:

I note that at the time of the ASIC Announcement, BFL refers to Nasser as their CTO.
I published the summary of evidence on Sept 20. The interview was published on Sept. 23.

It follows that Nasser/BFL_Engineer, the Paris based bank worker, was appointed CEO of Butterfly Labs some time between June 15. and Sept. 23.

1: Who did Nasser replace as CEO?
2: When was Nasser appointed CEO?
3: Who (if any) replaced Nasser as Chief Technical Officer?

In the interview, Sonny Vleisides refers to himself as an "upper-level executive", but does not give any further description.

4: Exactly how many upper level executives are there in this 22 person company?
5: What is Sonny's "upper-level executive" position" in the 22 person company?

6: Is it correct that Nasser is lead engineer on ASIC development, and also CEO in addition to his bank job in Paris?

7: Why is the CEO now based in Paris? Does BFL have a Paris office?
8: Is the former CTO (now CEO) the only french employee? Isn't this a bit... impractical?

9: Who is "Nick W" of Butterfly Labs? (Signatory/contact on the press release.) [Link]

10: Who is the nameless Venture Capital / Private Equity Group referred to in the press release? (Or more to the point: Does it exist.)
11: Has BFL raised any capital other than pre-order money?

12: Who owns the company?
13: Who founded the company?


And... That'll do for a start.

If anyone outside of BFL has answers to any of these, feel free to chime in.

[crazyates]

Some unanswered questions:

I note that at the time of the ASIC Announcement, BFL refers to Nasser as their CTO.
I published the summary of evidence on Sept 20. The interview was published on Sept. 23.

It follows that Nasser/BFL_Engineer, the Paris based bank worker, was appointed CEO of Butterfly Labs some time between June 15. and Sept. 23.

1: Who did Nasser replace as CEO?
2: When was Nasser appointed CEO?
3: Who (if any) replaced Nasser as Chief Technical Officer?

In the interview, Sonny Vleisides refers to himself as an "upper-level executive", but does not give any further description.

4: Exactly how many upper level executives are there in this 22 person company?
5: What is Sonny's "upper-level executive" position" in the 22 person company?

6: Is it correct that Nasser is lead engineer on ASIC development, and also CEO in addition to his bank job in Paris?

7: Why is the CEO now based in Paris? Does BFL have a Paris office?
8: Is the former CTO (now CEO) the only french employee? Isn't this a bit... impractical?

9: Who is "Nick W" of Butterfly Labs? (Signatory/contact on the press release.) [Link]

10: Who is the nameless Venture Capital / Private Equity Group referred to in the press release? (Or more to the point: Does it exist.)
11: Has BFL raised any capital other than pre-order money?

12: Who owns the company?
13: Who founded the company?


And... That'll do for a start.

If anyone outside of BFL has answers to any of these, feel free to chime in.

You honestly think BFL is going to answer these questions? I challenge you to find ANY 20+ employee company that deals with millions of dollars of sales, and have them publicly answer a 13 point interrogation concerning their current and past CEOs, where they live, detailed internal structuring, why they chose that structuring, name an ANONYMOUS venture capitalist, and then reveal internal financial reports.

Are you for FUCKING serious?! Almost any company out there would laugh you straight to the door. I understand that the "Bitcoin" world can get a little askew from the "Real" world, but man, this tops the cake.

[SLok]

...... I also believe at the start BFL had nothing but a Idea, they pre-sold you a Idea and then built it. In normal circumstances that would be called a investment, but they spun it so it would be a "Pre-order". If BFL would have been past the "Idea" Phase and actually had some solid work done they would have been close to if not already shipped. If you do not believe me this is how BFL funded there new product do the math. ..............

Yet you boldly ordered a Jalapeno, and BFL cancelled it. And yet you lent a broke-ass guy who would go mining with a 12btc graphic card he could not afford and needed a loan for, 6 coins, which he would pay back of the profits, while the fine for being late on that loan (did you ever hear from him again?) was more than he could earn with it? Math, it ain't easy.

[Frizz23]

@ Frizz23, or bitsnpieces, or Cpt. Nemo, or BFL_Lab_Rat, or whatever dress you are wearing tonight, nobody pays me, and the signature is a lottery ticket, but you already knew that. At least 3 of your identities complained about those signatures sofar, ...

You seem to do some nice bookkeeping. Can you please tell me which identities, the date of the complaints, the total number of your postings on those days, the phase of the moon plus how often you touched yourself & got off thinking about BFL?

[MeSarah]

+1 crazyates
+1 SLok

Some people like elux think they are entitled to what ever they ask for. No matter how much information you provide them they will come back with another demand for more information.

This is how you deal with people like Elux:

Elux, what is your real name? What is your address? What is your phone number? Where do you work? What is your position at your place of employment? What educational degrees, if any, do you have? What is the license plate number of your car? What is your social security number? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your father's name? What are the birth dates of your parents? Where do you bank at? Will you provide a blood and urine samples? Are you willing to take a polygraph test?

And... That will do for a start.

Elux, if your unwilling to answer these questions then we know your unwilling to hold yourself to the standards you hold other to.

I feel another ignore coming.......

[bcpokey]

Que? When did it become some sort of crazy notion to want to know who is behind a business?

I googled "20 person company" and the first result was a google news report about a 20 person company that landed 80 million dollars in funding, named Anandale Construction. Googling Anandale Construction founder first result is a business journal Profile about the Founder (who is also President and CEO), a brief rundown of his personal history, his business partners names, the sources of his funding (including an upcoming contract with An Airforce Base for $10Mil), I stopped there but I suspect there's plenty more where that came from. (Side note: Not a publicly traded company)
Business journals routinely run profiles on businesses of all sizes who are more than happy to tell you their whole life story. Why in the world this seems CRAZY to people is... interesting.

Most businesses don't have the direct personal cozy relationship with their customers that Bitcoin and ASICs do, and so it's not often that anyone would have a chance to directly request that information, however freely making that information available is not at all uncommon.

Whether or not they choose to do so is their business, and I will be the first person to admit I will not tell any of you anything about who I am if I can help it, but it is hardly some sort of madman's snooping prying-eye request. I shrug I guess.

[Crypt_Current]

Que? When did it become some sort of crazy notion to want to know who is behind a business?

I googled "20 person company" and the first result was a google news report about a 20 person company that landed 80 million dollars in funding, named Anandale Construction. Googling Anandale Construction founder first result is a business journal Profile about the Founder (who is also President and CEO), a brief rundown of his personal history, his business partners names, the sources of his funding (including an upcoming contract with An Airforce Base for $10Mil), I stopped there but I suspect there's plenty more where that came from. (Side note: Not a publicly traded company)
Business journals routinely run profiles on businesses of all sizes who are more than happy to tell you their whole life story. Why in the world this seems CRAZY to people is... interesting.

Most businesses don't have the direct personal cozy relationship with their customers that Bitcoin and ASICs do, and so it's not often that anyone would have a chance to directly request that information, however freely making that information available is not at all uncommon.

Whether or not they choose to do so is their business, and I will be the first person to admit I will not tell any of you anything about who I am if I can help it, but it is hardly some sort of madman's snooping prying-eye request. I shrug I guess.

Good post; pretty much sums up my own opinion on the matter.  I paid my however much BTC for my 2 Jale's on preorder -- If they don't deliver (to anyone -- not just me) by Jan 30th then I will file for refund, and pursue legal recourse if applicable.  This really is a simple matter -- I don't quite understand why everyone is making such a paranoid huge deal out of it (and I'm a questionably paranoid drug user!)
I got burned by Bitcoinica as well.  But that might have been due to my own emotional trading "style" -- I mean that WAS my first venture into forex.  I won sometimes... Big... But netted a loss.  So what?  This is the wild west of crypto-gambling.  [EDIT part:  I just received an email from the liquidation company that owns the Bitcoinica LP liability or whatever; have printed it out and am going to send it off in the next couple days, officially filing my claim for that loss.  MORE than I EVER expected from that.  I consider myself lucky]
Point is:   You take the bad with the good and you risk what you're comfortable with.
And I am by NO means a wealthy person... I scraped together school financial aid proceeds & SSI to afford my 1.8 GH that I currently mine on and barely pay my rent with -- I DEFINITELY live on the edge -- But this is my decision. I am a gambling man, no doubt.  Preordering with BFL seemed to me like a winning bet.  We shall see.
****I**** have room to complain... But I am NOT.
I await the falling of the chips.  Settle down, everyone.  Karma will distribute properly and justice will ultimately be done, on the this matter as well as on the most grandiose scale.
As above, so below.

[Unacceptable]

+1 crazyates
+1 SLok

Some people like elux think they are entitled to what ever they ask for. No matter how much information you provide them they will come back with another demand for more information.

This is how you deal with people like Elux:

Elux, what is your real name? What is your address? What is your phone number? Where do you work? What is your position at your place of employment? What educational degrees, if any, do you have? What is the license plate number of your car? What is your social security number? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your father's name? What are the birth dates of your parents? Where do you bank at? Will you provide a blood and urine samples? Are you willing to take a polygraph test?

And... That will do for a start.

Elux, if your unwilling to answer these questions then we know your unwilling to hold yourself to the standards you hold other to.

I feel another ignore coming.......

  Holy crap MeSarah !!!!!!

Have you been BFLwashed?

I think the redheads are doing thier job  



Nice retort,I'm just impressed you didn't "jump on the bandwagon"  

[crazyates]

+1 crazyates
+1 SLok

Some people like elux think they are entitled to what ever they ask for. No matter how much information you provide them they will come back with another demand for more information.

This is how you deal with people like Elux:

Elux, what is your real name? What is your address? What is your phone number? Where do you work? What is your position at your place of employment? What educational degrees, if any, do you have? What is the license plate number of your car? What is your social security number? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your father's name? What are the birth dates of your parents? Where do you bank at? Will you provide a blood and urine samples? Are you willing to take a polygraph test?

And... That will do for a start.

Elux, if your unwilling to answer these questions then we know your unwilling to hold yourself to the standards you hold other to.

I feel another ignore coming.......

  Holy crap MeSarah !!!!!!

Have you been BFLwashed?

I think the redheads are doing thier job  



Nice retort,I'm just impressed you didn't "jump on the bandwagon"  

Haha which is funny, cuz I am a redhead.

[Unacceptable]

+1 crazyates
+1 SLok

Some people like elux think they are entitled to what ever they ask for. No matter how much information you provide them they will come back with another demand for more information.

This is how you deal with people like Elux:

Elux, what is your real name? What is your address? What is your phone number? Where do you work? What is your position at your place of employment? What educational degrees, if any, do you have? What is the license plate number of your car? What is your social security number? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your father's name? What are the birth dates of your parents? Where do you bank at? Will you provide a blood and urine samples? Are you willing to take a polygraph test?

And... That will do for a start.

Elux, if your unwilling to answer these questions then we know your unwilling to hold yourself to the standards you hold other to.

I feel another ignore coming.......

  Holy crap MeSarah !!!!!!

Have you been BFLwashed?

I think the redheads are doing thier job  



Nice retort,I'm just impressed you didn't "jump on the bandwagon"  

Haha which is funny, cuz I am a redhead.

Haha,Me TOO 

[Badonkadonk]

+1 crazyates
+1 SLok

Some people like elux think they are entitled to what ever they ask for. No matter how much information you provide them they will come back with another demand for more information.

This is how you deal with people like Elux:

Elux, what is your real name? What is your address? What is your phone number? Where do you work? What is your position at your place of employment? What educational degrees, if any, do you have? What is the license plate number of your car? What is your social security number? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your father's name? What are the birth dates of your parents? Where do you bank at? Will you provide a blood and urine samples? Are you willing to take a polygraph test?

And... That will do for a start.

Elux, if your unwilling to answer these questions then we know your unwilling to hold yourself to the standards you hold other to.

I feel another ignore coming.......

  Holy crap MeSarah !!!!!!

Have you been BFLwashed?

I think the redheads are doing thier job  



Nice retort,I'm just impressed you didn't "jump on the bandwagon"  

Haha which is funny, cuz I am a redhead.

Haha,Me TOO 

Oh god, this made my year. 

[PuertoLibre]

****I**** have room to complain... But I am NOT.
I await the falling of the chips.  Settle down, everyone.  Karma will distribute properly and justice will ultimately be done, on the this matter as well as on the most grandiose scale.
As above, so below.

+10
Good point.

[BitcoinINV]

Yet you boldly ordered a Jalapeno, and BFL cancelled it. And yet you lent a broke-ass guy who would go mining with a 12btc graphic card he could not afford and needed a loan for, 6 coins, which he would pay back of the profits, while the fine for being late on that loan (did you ever hear from him again?) was more than he could earn with it? Math, it ain't easy.

...... I also believe at the start BFL had nothing but a Idea, they pre-sold you a Idea and then built it. In normal circumstances that would be called a investment, but they spun it so it would be a "Pre-order". If BFL would have been past the "Idea" Phase and actually had some solid work done they would have been close to if not already shipped. If you do not believe me this is how BFL funded there new product do the math. ..............

What does my outside dealings have to do with this discussion? Can you not back your case with logical comments?
You should go hang out on the BFL forums with like minded Koolaid drinkers. This post is about BFL not my lending practices, but if you wanted to get into it. I lent money and I knew I was lending money, Unlike BFL who took out a loan and told you it was a pre-order.
Does anyone know the exact number of Singles and Rigs sold? I want to do some math to see about what there operating funds were.

Just another tidbit here.
Here is another thing to look at, A company in Communist China is releasing more details then a American company. Now people bitch about jobs being lost to them but then look how the U.S. Company acts and then how the Chinese company acts. Ask Avalon something and they answer. Ask BFL something and you get ridiculed.

[Starlightbreaker]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.0


closest you can get.

[DiabloD3]

Yet you boldly ordered a Jalapeno, and BFL cancelled it. And yet you lent a broke-ass guy who would go mining with a 12btc graphic card he could not afford and needed a loan for, 6 coins, which he would pay back of the profits, while the fine for being late on that loan (did you ever hear from him again?) was more than he could earn with it? Math, it ain't easy.

...... I also believe at the start BFL had nothing but a Idea, they pre-sold you a Idea and then built it. In normal circumstances that would be called a investment, but they spun it so it would be a "Pre-order". If BFL would have been past the "Idea" Phase and actually had some solid work done they would have been close to if not already shipped. If you do not believe me this is how BFL funded there new product do the math. ..............

What does my outside dealings have to do with this discussion? Can you not back your case with logical comments?
You should go hang out on the BFL forums with like minded Koolaid drinkers. This post is about BFL not my lending practices, but if you wanted to get into it. I lent money and I knew I was lending money, Unlike BFL who took out a loan and told you it was a pre-order.
Does anyone know the exact number of Singles and Rigs sold? I want to do some math to see about what there operating funds were.

Just another tidbit here.
Here is another thing to look at, A company in Communist China is releasing more details then a American company. Now people bitch about jobs being lost to them but then look how the U.S. Company acts and then how the Chinese company acts. Ask Avalon something and they answer. Ask BFL something and you get ridiculed.

Yeah, but ngzhang is just a single guy who isn't doing this as a business or as his job... it may turn into a job in the future, but this is still a side thing for him. Hes willing to license his designs to whoever asks for a small fee (although I don't think he can relicense the SHA256 IP core hes using for Avalon, so you'd still buy the ASICs from him but fab your own boards however you want).

Its not about US vs China, its about greed. BFL wants to become a legitimate company so hard that they're pissing off all their potential customers, but with ngzhang, people are throwing money at him because hes proven several times hes legit and delivers and has that whole "its done when its done and not a moment sooner" mentality.

[creativex]

I like the way ngzhang and Avalon is handling their product launch. They're the class act of ASICs thus far.

BFL? ...well they're on the other end of that scale.

[Frizz23]

... BFL wants to become a legitimate company so hard that they're pissing off all their potential customers, ...

It surely doesn't help to insult (potential) customers.

Just do a forum search here:
Search for: "idiot"
by user: "Inaba"

Maybe BFL should do the same - and question if they made the right decision to hire Inaba/BFL_Josh as their representative.

[Unacceptable]

... BFL wants to become a legitimate company so hard that they're pissing off all their potential customers, ...

It surely doesn't help to insult (potential) customers.

Just do a forum search here:
Search for: "idiot"
by user: "Inaba"

Maybe BFL should do the same - and question if they made the right decision to hire Inaba/BFL_Josh as their representative.

I think BFL did good in hiring Inaba....you just don't care for him because unlike most folks,he's not scared of you & your whining 

[SLok]

Yet you boldly ordered a Jalapeno, and BFL cancelled it. And yet you lent a broke-ass guy who would go mining with a 12btc graphic card he could not afford and needed a loan for, 6 coins, which he would pay back off the profits, while the fine for being late on that loan (did you ever hear from him again?) was more than he could earn with it? Math, it ain't easy.

...... I also believe at the start BFL had nothing but a Idea, they pre-sold you a Idea and then built it. In normal circumstances that would be called a investment, but they spun it so it would be a "Pre-order". If BFL would have been past the "Idea" Phase and actually had some solid work done they would have been close to if not already shipped. If you do not believe me this is how BFL funded there new product do the math. ..............

What does my outside dealings have to do with this discussion? Can you not back your case with logical comments?

Do the math you said, re-read my reply, your math skills suck.

[Gatorhex]

"Nasser G" is employed by a bank in Paris. He has previously declined to answer questions regarding his employment on this forum.

Who is the nameless Venture Capital / Private Equity Group referred to in the press release? (Or more to the point: Does it exist.)

Doesn't the first question answer the second one and vice versa? A bank would sit one of their guys on the board if they were worried about their investment/loan. 

[elux]

ASIC Update 26 November 2012

While I can't give a hard date and say "absolutely" this is the date, it looks like the week of the 11th, but that's the "fuzzy" date I have at the moment and I'm waiting on confirmation on a not-fuzzy date from the foundry right now. There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed and it pushed the date out, plain and simple.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a.html

Welcome to "the week of the 11th". Time for another delay announcement?

Why haven't customers been issued prompt refunds in accordance with FTC regulation?

[Korbman]

Why haven't customers been issued prompt refunds in accordance with FTC regulation?

Unfortunately the regulation part deals with shipping delays after their "official" ship date, which last time I checked (a while ago) was January 1st.

Other than that, people can apparently get refunds at any time if they ask before the 1st.

[PuertoLibre]

Why haven't customers been issued prompt refunds in accordance with FTC regulation?

Unfortunately the regulation part deals with shipping delays after their "official" ship date, which last time I checked (a while ago) was January 1st.

Other than that, people can apparently get refunds at any time if they ask before the 1st.

I believe you misunderstood.

The current policy is that they are refunding on a "case by case" basis. This is a voluntary effort on BFL's part.

When [err...IF] January 1st passes, they no longer have a voluntary "case by case" review. Any and all customers at that point can demand a refund and BFL is obligated to give one. (as in, not voluntary).

By January 1st [2013)you either have a rig in your hands, or you can demand a refund. Its what the BFL rep mentioned a while back. (Use the search feature folks!)

----------------------------

The reason why the 1st of January is supposedly "the deadline" date, it is because they set their original time frame to October 2012. (60 days later...November/December)

[kpriess]

Where is this standing..?

[repentance]

Where is this standing..?

Check in the custom hardware subforum.  There's a BFL thread there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

Or check the BFL forums.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/forum.php

[MrTeal]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Since I saw you were online today Nasser, can you comment on this quote by Josh in a Wired magazine article?

The problem was that Butterfly — based out of Kansas City, Missouri — banked on a cool design and a brand new chip manufacturing process and ended up getting in over its head. “We’ve hit quite a few snags along the way, says Butterfly Chief Operations Officer Josh Zerlan.

The company had to redo its initial chip designs, but the worst snag was in November, when the Butterfly got a hold of its first chip samples. They were basically too hot to work, Zerlan says. “The plastic packaging on the top of the chip just couldn’t exhaust the heat fast enough, so it basically melted the package.”

Link: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/bitcoin-mining-rigs/

Was Josh misquoted or incorrect, or did you get chip samples in that ran so hot they destroyed the QFN packages?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hi Everyone,

We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know.


Regards,
Nasser

Since I saw you were online today Nasser, can you comment on this quote by Josh in a Wired magazine article?

The problem was that Butterfly — based out of Kansas City, Missouri — banked on a cool design and a brand new chip manufacturing process and ended up getting in over its head. “We’ve hit quite a few snags along the way, says Butterfly Chief Operations Officer Josh Zerlan.

The company had to redo its initial chip designs, but the worst snag was in November, when the Butterfly got a hold of its first chip samples. They were basically too hot to work, Zerlan says. “The plastic packaging on the top of the chip just couldn’t exhaust the heat fast enough, so it basically melted the package.”

Link: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/bitcoin-mining-rigs/

Was Josh misquoted or incorrect, or did you get chip samples in that ran so hot they destroyed the QFN packages?

That definitely explains a lot of things: