[ANN][LSK] Lisk | Blockchain Application Platform for JavaScript Developers

[Primitive]

can someone please ELI5 "Turing-Completeness"

thanks

[MalReynolds]

can someone please ELI5 "Turing-Completeness"

thanks

Etherium says their brand new programming language (Solidity) is so very, very, very good you will never ever have to change away from it because it can do literally anything.  Ultimate Computer Geek Alan Turing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing) says so.

Lisk says that may be true, but such a language is pretty darn hard to learn or use, and needs very complicated computers to run it.  

Lisk says use a simple, common language (JavaScript!) and simple, cheap computers ($35 Raspberry Pi 2s!  $9 CHIPs !) to do 99% of what Etherium can do at 1% of the difficulty and 1% of the cost.

[Primitive]

can someone please ELI5 "Turing-Completeness"

thanks

Etherium says their brand new programming language is so very, very, very good you will never ever have to change away from it because it can do literally anything.  Ultimate Computer Geek Alan Turing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing) says so.

Lisk says that may be true, but such a language is pretty darn hard to learn or use, and needs very complicated computers to run it.  

Lisk says use a simple, common language (JavaScript!) and simple, cheap computers ($35 Raspberry Pi 2s!  $9 CHIPs !) to do 99% of what Etherium can do at 1% of the difficulty and 1% of the cost.

thanks. came across this: 

"A programming language that is Turing complete is theoretically capable of expressing all tasks accomplishable by computers; nearly all programming languages are Turing complete."

here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine

thats seems to be the simplest explanation

[Primitive]

do XCR contributors also get the bonuses during the ICO?

[kickstarter]

Do you have any specific use cases you want to target with LISK?

[MalReynolds]

.... nearly all programming languages are Turing complete.

Yep, because just about all modern computer languages could be used to write a simulation of Turing's original imaginary "endless paper tape" computer he dreamed up in the 1930s.  Turing's simple example, though, was very impressive because he was dreaming about computers before anybody had any idea how a computer could actually work.

Two conclusions to think about.

First, if a group is actually babbling out loud about "Turing completeness" in a world where just about all programming languages are Turing complete, it's because they want you to think they are smart and have a monopoly on something special when they really don't.

Second, if nearly all programming languages are Turing complete, go with (and back for further development) the language that is actually simplest to use.   Which for side chains and dapps is JavaScript with Lisk, not Solidity with Etherium.

[MalReynolds]

do XCR contributors also get the bonuses during the ICO?

No.  Advantage, BTC / Shapeshift coins.

[MalReynolds]

Do you have any specific use cases you want to target with LISK?

As I have predicted repeatedly, the first person to write a sports betting dapp on Crypti / Lisk 0.5.5 will become a billionaire.

[bitseedmike]

The ICO information is not clear enough.

Can everyone just buy 1 share of a fixed size? Or 1 share which size depends on the amount of sold shares?

Or can you invest as much as you like? If so: is it fixed how much share you get for your money beforehand or does this depend on the total amount raised by the ico?

Thanks

do XCR contributors also get the bonuses during the ICO?

One way to look at it is that people who donate earlier receive a bonus as compensation for the additional risk of not knowing what their final share of the distribution will be. The longer you wait, the more idea you will have of your final share, but the lower the bonus. Waiting until the very end gives you the most definite estimate of actual share, but this period also tends to see a large spike of contributions so it can still be pretty chaotic. Waiting until the very last minute gives you the most precise view of expected distribution in return for contribution, but also runs the risk of not having the donation transaction processed in time to enter the blockchain.

There were a few disputes in the Mastercoin ICO over transactions which were submitted to the blockchain prior to the deadline but didn't confirm until after. Fortunately, Lisk has a 10 second block time which makes this less of an issue on its end, but Bitcoin has a highly variable block time averaging 10-20 minutes so donors might want to account for this if they wait until the end of the ICO to donate. My preference is that eligibility of donations for distribution of Lisk should be time-stamped when they first enter the Bitcoin blockchain, not when they are confirmed, but with an intermediary platform like Shapeshift this could be more complicated.

There should be clear definition in the ICO terms which timestamp(s) will be used in determining eligibility for Lisk distribution. My preference is time of submission, when the transaction first enters the blockchain.

XCR does not receive a bonus for earlier conversion. Since XCR already represents an existing share in the distribution regardless of outcome regardless of when it is converted, it makes sense that it doesn't receive a bonus.

[Primitive]

do XCR contributors also get the bonuses during the ICO?

No.  Advantage, BTC / Shapeshift coins.

sadface

[Primitive]

XCR does not receive a bonus for earlier conversion. Since XCR already represents an existing share in the distribution regardless of outcome regardless of when it is converted, it makes sense that it doesn't receive a bonus.

just when i thought i was starting to understand the ICO....

[poornamelessme]

do XCR contributors also get the bonuses during the ICO?

No.  Advantage, BTC / Shapeshift coins.

sadface

Instead XCR people get a flat rate of 1300 sats, which based on the marketplace is a decent price value. If it makes you feel better, pretend that you are getting it at 1130 sats with the same 15% bonus. It was an arbitrary number (somewhat) to begin with ... I'm just happy it wasn't like 700 sats.

[Forrest01]

Lisk ICO Terms - Part II

As promised, today we are disclosing further details about our Initial Coin Offering (ICO). Please read Part I of our Lisk ICO terms if you have not done so already.


Summary:

• ShapeShift Partnership
• Exchange Wizard
• And more!

Read more about our ICO terms on our blog

Thanks Max for more information on ICO, ShapeShift patnership is a good idea.

So for the people who want to convert their XCR into LISK it would make most sense to do so in the last week of the ICO, right?
Because this would give them exchange rate of 1300 satoshis per XCR which would not be available in the first 3 weeks because of bonus offerred at that time?

[poornamelessme]

Thanks Max for more information on ICO, ShapeShift patnership is a good idea.

So for the people who want to convert their XCR into LISK it would make most sense to do so in the last week of the ICO, right?
Because this would give them exchange rate of 1300 satoshis per XCR which would not be available in the first 3 weeks because of bonus offerred at that time?

Don't think it works like that. 1300 is flat rate regardless. The bonus thing is just for btc (or eth, shapeshift too, not sure). It's not like XCR people get more Lisk investing later.

However if there are XCR people with spare coin that they feel like selling off to mitigate some risks, it could make sense to wait until the later weeks of the ICO, as without that btc bonus XCR price should rise to 1200+ish (in theory).

That also assumes exchanges have no issues moving XCR that close to the ICO deadline.

[MalReynolds]

XCR does not receive a bonus for earlier conversion. Since XCR already represents an existing share in the distribution regardless of outcome regardless of when it is converted, it makes sense that it doesn't receive a bonus.

just when i thought i was starting to understand the ICO....

Yeah, I don't understand that statement either. 

[wosch76]

Lisk ICO Terms - Part II

As promised, today we are disclosing further details about our Initial Coin Offering (ICO). Please read Part I of our Lisk ICO terms if you have not done so already.


Summary:

• ShapeShift Partnership
• Exchange Wizard
• And more!

Read more about our ICO terms on our blog

shapeshift partnership is a brilliant idea.
this will bring in many more participants to the ICO

[bitseedmike]

XCR does not receive a bonus for earlier conversion. Since XCR already represents an existing share in the distribution regardless of outcome regardless of when it is converted, it makes sense that it doesn't receive a bonus.

just when i thought i was starting to understand the ICO....

Yeah, I don't understand that statement either. 

To clarify, the only practical alternatives for XCR are to convert to Lisk or sell it for another coin, most notably, Bitcoin. It is, in a way, a sharedrop for for the existing investors who funded creating the base technology for Lisk but flexible in that conversion results in a stake based on how much additional funding is received instead of being a fixed percentage. Maybe it could be argued that XCR holders should receive the bonus as well since they are foregoing the option to sell instead of holding to see how the ICO pans out, but the sale price can be expected to increase as the ICO progresses and the BTC bonuses diminish if there is a strong interest in the ICO throughout the period.

[bob75coin]

Waiting for ICO!!! (...and testing signature)

[MalReynolds]

Here's a list of coins accepted by Shapeshift, and the approximate (to six decimal places!) maximum single transfer size in BTC.

2.502030      Peercoin
2.501523      Maidsafe
2.501324      Monero
2.500738      Blackcoin
2.500727      Nubits
2.499849      Counterparty
2.498135      LiteCoin
2.493198      Dash
2.481237      BitCrystals
2.480033      Startcoin
2.473888      Ether
2.452955      Dogecoin
2.101428      StorjcoinX
1.896001      Clams
1.890705      GEMZ
1.823319      BitcoinDark
1.732992      Digibyte
1.469103      Namecoin
1.239025      Feathercoin
1.033564      Tether
0.831740      Reddcoin
0.588209      Monacoin
0.564457      Shadowcash
0.525528      Mintcoin
0.479496      Mastercoin
0.383556      Unobtanium
0.322049      Potcoin
0.298007      Vertcoin
0.184405      FlorinCoin
0.088511      Novacoin
0.049531      Vericoin
0.005968      Arch
0.000027      Hyper
(offline)      NXT
(offline)      BitShares
(offline)      Ripple
(offline)      BitUSD
(offline)      Stellar

[MalReynolds]

XCR does not receive a bonus for earlier conversion. Since XCR already represents an existing share in the distribution regardless of outcome regardless of when it is converted, it makes sense that it doesn't receive a bonus.

just when i thought i was starting to understand the ICO....

Yeah, I don't understand that statement either.  

To clarify, the only practical alternatives for XCR are to convert to Lisk or sell it for another coin, most notably, Bitcoin. It is, in a way, a sharedrop for for the existing investors who funded creating the base technology for Lisk but flexible in that conversion results in a stake based on how much additional funding is received instead of being a fixed percentage. Maybe it could be argued that XCR holders should receive the bonus as well since they are foregoing the option to sell instead of holding to see how the ICO pans out, but the sale price can be expected to increase as the ICO progresses and the BTC bonuses diminish if there is a strong interest in the ICO throughout the period.

I think it's all much simpler than your explanation.   A BTC/Shapecoin bonus level structure for the ICO is nothing more than free advertising.

If you know about this ICO and you are going to participate in it with BTC/Shapeshift coin, you will do so in the first week.   This means there will be a big pop in real money donations up front that will make news.  Early news coverage of how well the Lisk ICO is doing makes other new people aware of the ICO, and these newly informed people will show up in week two.  Another pop, more news coverage, more people show up.  

Without the BTC/Shapeshift rewards, everybody holds back until the end to see what others are going to do, the ICO looks slow, no news coverage, no newly informed people brought in in weeks two and onward.  

There's no reward structure for XCR donors because XCR people shuffling from one version of their own coin to another version of their coin isn't really true money flow and therefore isn't news.   The bonus structure for BTC/Shapeshift doesn't hurt XCR holders and so is irrelevant to them.  With a fixed and fair market value of 1300 satoshi conversion rate for XCR to equivalent BTC, a XCR holder leaves the ICO with the same value of holdings that he has before the ICO.  If he gets more Lisk than Crypti donated (because fewer BTC donors showed up), the value of the Lisk goes down to compensate.  If he gets fewer Lisk than Crypti donated (because more BTC donors showed up), the value of his Lisk holdings go up to compensate.  

The important thing is not for XCR people to get a bonus.  It is for them to not lose or gain money relative to BTC/Shapeshift donors as a result of the ICO.  This is accomplished.  It is a good and fair ICO to all parties.

The reward structure is free advertising, nothing more.  85M Lisk and only 85M Lisk get handed out at the end regardless.  Max is very talented in public relations, and the ICO reward structure is a good example of his thinking.