Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM.....

[Cnut237]

Good race but was almost impossible for Charles.

Yeah. He did the absolute best he could, but didn't have the fastest car so there was nothing he could do really to stop Hamilton overtaking.
I really hope the rule changes for next year have the desired effect and allow closer racing and more equal racing. Time will tell, but although today's race was exciting, it would be so much better if all the cars were evenly matched.

[CLS63]

It was a really great race. Charles Leclerc was so close to a victory after a 2-year period without getting one. His pace was really good considering his car. But he had engine problems time to time and Ferrari engineers hardly managed to fix it. His pit stop was quite decent also. But still, he didn't have so much thing to do against a beast like Hamilton.    He was just incredibly fast that he caught up with Leclerc before the final lap and got past him easily. Leclerc couldn't defend much as the power of his car wasn't big enough to compete against him. Still he ended at the 2nd place and it was a great job.

Perez got the fastest lap but Hamilton won the race and got 25 more points. And the gap between Verstappen and Hamilton is now 8 points. The competition for the title has fired up even more now. I'm looking forward to see the Hungarian GP in two weeks.

[coinlocket$]

Yeah. He did the absolute best he could, but didn't have the fastest car so there was nothing he could do really to stop Hamilton overtaking.
I really hope the rule changes for next year have the desired effect and allow closer racing and more equal racing. Time will tell, but although today's race was exciting, it would be so much better if all the cars were evenly matched.

I think next year will be a bingo like BRAWNGP did back in years.
With an huge regulation change who will find the "cheat" in the grey area will win the title.

[LTU_btc]

I see that Lewis is getting a lot of hate on social media after that accident. I'm not his fan, but I think it's not deserved. Yes, crash was big and Max got big impact, but for me it was like racing accident like we see almost every race. And he got punished for it - 10 seconds time pantly is already quite strict. What else stewards could do - ban him from race or what? I think it would be too much.
I think that Lewis win is good thing for championship. In case of Verstappen win, gap between him and Hamilton would be very big already and 2nd part of championship could be a bit boring.

[boltz]

For me it remains a race incident as they both tackled each other since the start so even if they trow a penalty on Hamilton is not enough. On the other side, I do hope Max is fine and he will be able to race on the same level for the next races....but also it's good that the summer break is almost here.

I do not have anyone as they all the same desire on the circuit and that is to WIN.

[coinlocket$]

I see that Lewis is getting a lot of hate on social media after that accident. I'm not his fan, but I think it's not deserved. Yes, crash was big and Max got big impact, but for me it was like racing accident like we see almost every race. And he got punished for it - 10 seconds time pantly is already quite strict. What else stewards could do - ban him from race or what? I think it would be too much.
I think that Lewis win is good thing for championship. In case of Verstappen win, gap between him and Hamilton would be very big already and 2nd part of championship could be a bit boring.

Stop and go would be a better penalty.
I remember 10 years ago a similar thing happened to Vettel when he was on Redbull.

They give him a penalty and I think it was a 10sec stop and go but the car was dominating and they waited too much for giving it to him.
By the time he got the penalty he was escaping from the pack and he paid the penalty but he stayed in the lead.

Considering the paste of the car the penalty could be heavier since as we saw there was basically no penalty.

[AndySt]

It was a really great race. Charles Leclerc was so close to a victory after a 2-year period without getting one. His pace was really good considering his car. But he had engine problems time to time and Ferrari engineers hardly managed to fix it. His pit stop was quite decent also. But still, he didn't have so much thing to do against a beast like Hamilton.    He was just incredibly fast that he caught up with Leclerc before the final lap and got past him easily. Leclerc couldn't defend much as the power of his car wasn't big enough to compete against him. Still he ended at the 2nd place and it was a great job.
Perez got the fastest lap but Hamilton won the race and got 25 more points. And the gap between Verstappen and Hamilton is now 8 points. The competition for the title has fired up even more now. I'm looking forward to see the Hungarian GP in two weeks.

Yes, Leclerc and Ferrari were very close to winning, despite the fact that Ferrari officially announced that it would no longer modernize its car this year. This means that, nevertheless, for certain tracks and a certain type of tires, this reserve is quite enough for a certain competition with Mercedes and Red Bull racing cars. It is very significant that the management of the Ferrari team allowed Leclerc to use the engine in an increased mode, but this still did not allow him to fight with Hamilton's Mercedes at the end of the race. Thanks to Hamilton's victory, the situation in the championship has greatly worsened and we will see how Lewis and Max will conduct a contact fight in Hungary, taking into account the contact of racing cars that occurred. Mercedes, thanks to the first and third places, came close to Red Bull in the Constructors ' Cup.

[Cnut237]

I think next year will be a bingo like BRAWNGP did back in years.
With an huge regulation change who will find the "cheat" in the grey area will win the title.

Yeah. A new era of regulations does tend to produce one dramatic winner... and then when racing starts and it becomes apparent that one team is miles ahead, the others then start the long process over several seasons of modifying their cars to match the winning design.

Mercedes have been dominant in the current era, and in the first year they were so far ahead it was ridiculous, no-one else could get close... but in recent years other teams have been fairly close, Ferrari arguably had the quicker car for a while, and currently as the era winds to a close Red Bull definitely have taken the lead (although this is probably due in large part to how this year's tweak affected low rake / high rake designs to different extents).

Just hope 2022 doesn't see one team emerge vastly superior to the others...

[DIA7]

It was a really great race. Charles Leclerc was so close to a victory after a 2-year period without getting one. His pace was really good considering his car. But he had engine problems time to time and Ferrari engineers hardly managed to fix it. His pit stop was quite decent also. But still, he didn't have so much thing to do against a beast like Hamilton.    He was just incredibly fast that he caught up with Leclerc before the final lap and got past him easily. Leclerc couldn't defend much as the power of his car wasn't big enough to compete against him. Still he ended at the 2nd place and it was a great job.
Perez got the fastest lap but Hamilton won the race and got 25 more points. And the gap between Verstappen and Hamilton is now 8 points. The competition for the title has fired up even more now. I'm looking forward to see the Hungarian GP in two weeks.

Yes, Leclerc and Ferrari were very close to winning, despite the fact that Ferrari officially announced that it would no longer modernize its car this year. This means that, nevertheless, for certain tracks and a certain type of tires, this reserve is quite enough for a certain competition with Mercedes and Red Bull racing cars. It is very significant that the management of the Ferrari team allowed Leclerc to use the engine in an increased mode, but this still did not allow him to fight with Hamilton's Mercedes at the end of the race. Thanks to Hamilton's victory, the situation in the championship has greatly worsened and we will see how Lewis and Max will conduct a contact fight in Hungary, taking into account the contact of racing cars that occurred. Mercedes, thanks to the first and third places, came close to Red Bull in the Constructors ' Cup.

Leclerc could have won the race if his team didn't tell him to push sooner, sooner as Hamilton started chipping 1 second every lap.
It was clear that he was aiming for the first spot, he got passed Norris in just a few seconds and I belleive this year Maclaren cars are better cars then the Ferraries so if Luis was in DRS range while he was in beast mode he would overtake you in no time unless it's a RedBull car then other strategies needed.
Next race in two weeks and it will be in Hungary, and it should be where RedBull gets back on winning because it took Mercedes both of their RedBull cars out of competition so they can win a race.

[swogerino]

Hungary next is a track where overtaking is almost impossible and many trying to do so have finished in the gravel or have hit each other and the race has stopped there.There were very few overtakes in the first corner or just after that but that was in an era where Mercedes was 100% dominant,I don't think this can happen against a Redbull here in this track.I saw that the qualifying will be decided again from a Sprint race and here is extremely important who gets the pole because 9 out of 10 races the pole sitter have won them.

[Cnut237]

This guy...  Lol.  The stewards should give Hamilton a penalty.  That was ruthless and what a dirty driver.  Embarassing.

Edit:  From the replays viewed from Hamilton’s camera it looked like it was just a racing incident.  But from top view it looked like Hamilton should have given Verstappen some space cos Verstappen was ahead of him.

Hamilton wasn't totally level going into the corner, he was slightly behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there, and just drove into him to try to force Hamilton off the track. Hamilton attacked on the outside, was cut off, so then tried the inside instead. That's fair enough, they'd been at it every corner on that opening lap.

It is probably a racing incident, but for me if anyone is to blame, then it is Verstappen. And I say that because... ask yourself what would have happened if the situation (cars and total championship points) were reversed, Hamilton on the outside, Verstappen cutting inside and slightly behind. Would Hamilton have driven straight into him, or would he have reluctantly ceded the position?

The difference is Hamilton in that situation, on the outside, and with a 33 point championship lead, would have let Verstappen through and taken the 18 points for second. But with Verstappen there is no nuance, it's all-or-nothing, so he decided to ram Hamilton rather than settle for second. It's why he's exciting, but it's also why he has a reputation as a dangerous driver. And the result is he lost 25 points in the championship race, rather than the 7 he could have lost if he'd kept his eye on the bigger picture rather than being lost in the moment.

[dre1982]

This guy...  Lol.  The stewards should give Hamilton a penalty.  That was ruthless and what a dirty driver.  Embarassing.

Edit:  From the replays viewed from Hamilton’s camera it looked like it was just a racing incident.  But from top view it looked like Hamilton should have given Verstappen some space cos Verstappen was ahead of him.

Hamilton wasn't totally level going into the corner, he was slightly behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there, and just drove into him to try to force Hamilton off the track. Hamilton attacked on the outside, was cut off, so then tried the inside instead. That's fair enough, they'd been at it every corner on that opening lap.

It is probably a racing incident, but for me if anyone is to blame, then it is Verstappen. And I say that because... ask yourself what would have happened if the situation (cars and total championship points) were reversed, Hamilton on the outside, Verstappen cutting inside and slightly behind. Would Hamilton have driven straight into him, or would he have reluctantly ceded the position?

The difference is Hamilton in that situation, on the outside, and with a 33 point championship lead, would have let Verstappen through and taken the 18 points for second. But with Verstappen there is no nuance, it's all-or-nothing, so he decided to ram Hamilton rather than settle for second. It's why he's exciting, but it's also why he has a reputation as a dangerous driver. And the result is he lost 25 points in the championship race, rather than the 7 he could have lost if he'd kept his eye on the bigger picture rather than being lost in the moment.

It's not that hard to understand.

behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there,

So Hamilton also knew Verstappen was there and Verstappen had the racing line.

And Verstappen isn't that dangerous driver anymore he was. He gave Hamilton enough space in all the previous corner, also in this corner. Hamilton had no competition for years so he is just getting nervous and start doing stupid things.

And then Hamilton won't appologize to Verstappen. He just partying while is rivial was taken to the hospital by helicopter. I thought Hamilton was the only talking about respect the whole time, but it's the lack of respect probably.

[AakZaki]

Curious about Marquez's gait for the next series. In Germany he won the championship, then in the Netherlands he finished in 7th position. Remember he started racing in 20th position. The progress is very significant, is it possible that he will win in the next series at the Red Bull Ring Spielberg AUSTRIA? Maybe this is the moment he returns after the first half of the series this season. There are still 3 weeks again road to MotoGP, I can't wait for this.

[tokeweed]

This guy...  Lol.  The stewards should give Hamilton a penalty.  That was ruthless and what a dirty driver.  Embarassing.

Edit:  From the replays viewed from Hamilton’s camera it looked like it was just a racing incident.  But from top view it looked like Hamilton should have given Verstappen some space cos Verstappen was ahead of him.

Not sure about it.
Hamilton had the car in the side, according to the rule Verstappen should give space for Hamilton to turn.
Verstappen did the turn like Lewis wasn't there.

Lewis has more responsibility but I don't know if he deserves a penalty.

Thinking about it again, it was more Hamilton’s fault than Verstappen.  Hamilton was in no way ahead of Verstappen and even in normal road driving, it’s more the fault of the driver behind than the one ahead.  Hamilton could see everything from his point of view, Verstappen can’t.  

Sly Hamilton.

This guy...  Lol.  The stewards should give Hamilton a penalty.  That was ruthless and what a dirty driver.  Embarassing.

Edit:  From the replays viewed from Hamilton’s camera it looked like it was just a racing incident.  But from top view it looked like Hamilton should have given Verstappen some space cos Verstappen was ahead of him.

Hamilton wasn't totally level going into the corner, he was slightly behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there, and just drove into him to try to force Hamilton off the track. Hamilton attacked on the outside, was cut off, so then tried the inside instead. That's fair enough, they'd been at it every corner on that opening lap.

It is probably a racing incident, but for me if anyone is to blame, then it is Verstappen. And I say that because... ask yourself what would have happened if the situation (cars and total championship points) were reversed, Hamilton on the outside, Verstappen cutting inside and slightly behind. Would Hamilton have driven straight into him, or would he have reluctantly ceded the position?

The difference is Hamilton in that situation, on the outside, and with a 33 point championship lead, would have let Verstappen through and taken the 18 points for second. But with Verstappen there is no nuance, it's all-or-nothing, so he decided to ram Hamilton rather than settle for second. It's why he's exciting, but it's also why he has a reputation as a dangerous driver. And the result is he lost 25 points in the championship race, rather than the 7 he could have lost if he'd kept his eye on the bigger picture rather than being lost in the moment.

It's not that hard to understand.

behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there,

So Hamilton also knew Verstappen was there and Verstappen had the racing line.

And Verstappen isn't that dangerous driver anymore he was. He gave Hamilton enough space in all the previous corner, also in this corner. Hamilton had no competition for years so he is just getting nervous and start doing stupid things.

And then Hamilton won't appologize to Verstappen. He just partying while is rivial was taken to the hospital by helicopter. I thought Hamilton was the only talking about respect the whole time, but it's the lack of respect probably.

The guy’s an asshole.  What can you do..

[Koal-84]

Leclerc almost did a miracle with the Ferrari.
Ferrari already stopped the upgrades for this car 2 months ago while Mercedes and Redbull will be in war till the end of the season.

Good race but was almost impossible for Charles.

Leclerc has a hard time with the Ferrari, more is not possible with this car at the moment. In addition, he had engine problems, which makes it even more difficult.

The accident between Hamilton and Max is for me a racing accident, even if it was a very hard manoeuvre by Hamilton, it is no longer like the last years that he can win the world championship alone and without problems. When he had Rosberg as an opponent, he always made mistakes when he was under pressure.

[Cnut237]

It's not that hard to understand.

Nice diagram, but in this context very misleading. Of course I understand the point about who has the racing line... and I understand why Hamilton got the penalty: the application of an 'ideal world' textbook definition to a messy real-world situation. But that example has an attacker sneaking in at the last minute and only their front wing level with the defender's wheel. I don't know if you intentionally snipped my quote after the word 'slightly', but clearly in this instance the situation was different, they'd been racing side by side since the start. It wasn't an attacker diving inside dangerously at the last minute at all. Here's a screengrab of the cars as they enter the corner:

Hamilton is slightly behind. The cars are practically neck-and-neck... and to give it more context, Hamilton had the slipstream all the way down the long straight, he was gaining rapidly... if he'd been a few inches further forward, then he would have had the racing line. It's fine margins, and certainly not an outrageous manouevre by Hamilton.
Verstappen saw him, and cut in, trying to force Hamilton off the track. Verstappen is and always has been a dangerous driver, and this time he put himself in hospital. I'll ask again: if it was Hamilton on the outside with a 33 point championship lead, and Verstappen on the inside, then would there have been a crash? Of course not; Hamilton would have given the position.



source


And if that's not enough... we don't even need to treat 'Hamilton on the outside' as a thought experiment, when there is video footage available. Not trying to start an argument, but there are some really short memories here! Literally 20 seconds before the crash, what happened? Well, have a look at the image below. Verstappen behind, going up the inside of Hamilton at a corner. And what happens? Hamilton, in the lead, gives him space and lets him have the position.


source

I understand why Hamilton got the penalty. Rule books can't cover every eventuality and circumstance; it's always a best-fit approach. But it was Max who was the reckless idiot who caused the crash. You should never try to force someone off the track like that, particularly at a high speed corner. Hopefully Max will learn a lesson and start driving more sensibly... but of course he never learns.

[Koal-84]

Curious about Marquez's gait for the next series. In Germany he won the championship, then in the Netherlands he finished in 7th position. Remember he started racing in 20th position. The progress is very significant, is it possible that he will win in the next series at the Red Bull Ring Spielberg AUSTRIA? Maybe this is the moment he returns after the first half of the series this season. There are still 3 weeks again road to MotoGP, I can't wait for this.

I can't wait either, the summer break in MotoGP is unfortunately very long. But this time will also pass quickly.

Marquez is not my favourite in the two MotoGP races in Austria, for me the Ducatis and KTMs are the favourites in Austria and of course Fabio, even if it's not a good track for Yamaha with a lot of full throttle.

I'm also curious about Rossi's decision for next year.

[coinlocket$]

behind, but... Verstappen knew he was there,

On Sky Sports Italy the shown the same case in the same track between Alonso (in Verstappen location ) and Vetten (Hamilton) happened in 2010 ish.
Alonso didn't close the turn and let Vettel pass otherwise was a collusion.

[AndySt]

Leclerc almost did a miracle with the Ferrari.
Ferrari already stopped the upgrades for this car 2 months ago while Mercedes and Redbull will be in war till the end of the season.
Good race but was almost impossible for Charles.

Leclerc has a hard time with the Ferrari, more is not possible with this car at the moment. In addition, he had engine problems, which makes it even more difficult.
The accident between Hamilton and Max is for me a racing accident, even if it was a very hard manoeuvre by Hamilton, it is no longer like the last years that he can win the world championship alone and without problems. When he had Rosberg as an opponent, he always made mistakes when he was under pressure.

Yes, the stewards perfectly understood the situation and made a fair and balanced decision. It is only admirable that despite the incident and Verstappen's desire to arrange an accident between the two drivers and finish the race ahead of schedule for both, Hamilton was able to stay on the track, and then win the race despite the lost positions and a penalty of ten seconds. It's just that Max is used to everyone turning the steering wheel away to avoid contact, but the stakes are too high and Verstappen got the answer in his own risky driving style. Once again, I remind you that the stewards from all sides considered the situation and punished Hamilton for his part of the fault in the incident.

[Cnut237]

On Sky Sports Italy the shown the same case in the same track between Alonso (in Verstappen location ) and Vetten (Hamilton) happened in 2010 ish.
Alonso didn't close the turn and let Vettel pass otherwise was a collusion.

We can even look at the situation later in Sunday's race, where Hamilton overtook Leclerc to take the lead in the closing laps. It was almost a perfect copy of the position on lap 1, at the same corner, Hamilton coming up on the inside... and Leclerc left room for him by taking a wider line. It's what most drivers would do.