A4 Dominator - Pre-Order Group Buy - 280mh, roughly 1000w, $1800 + shipping

[dogjunior]

Should be interesting to watch upwards to ~64GH of new/old KNC Titans come online here shortly.  Even if you discount 20% due to defect, 51GH of new scrypt hash should be coming online soon.  We should not confuse that with Innosilicon firing up a DC with a bunch of new A4s being "burned in".

Speaking of space heaters, those Titans ran at ~4w/MH and these A4s will be running at 3.2w/MH to make their 280MH specification so they will be pushing out their fair share of BTUs....

I would think that what ever KNC had in Titans was running. Not running them would have been stupid but I can't say that they were smart.

We are now first week of August and no pics of completed units or a production line with units being built. How about something being tested? You can't put boards together and then ship them out.

[excelerator]

In all seriousness, I suspect they will start shipping in September at this point. Given the lack of updates on their part, plus their own stated position of August or September as the shipping time frame, I would just breath deep and wait for September 1st.  Only begin to worry if nothing useful happens by October 1st.....

[usao]

In all seriousness, I suspect they will start shipping in September at this point. Given the lack of updates on their part, plus their own stated position of August or September as the shipping time frame, I would just breath deep and wait for September 1st.  Only begin to worry if nothing useful happens by October 1st.....

Yea, that's what I figured all along. All the ASIC companies seem to do that... They push the date to the limit of what they advertized, which would be the end of Sept...

[Longsnowsm]

Should be interesting to watch upwards to ~64GH of new/old KNC Titans come online here shortly.  Even if you discount 20% due to defect, 51GH of new scrypt hash should be coming online soon.  We should not confuse that with Innosilicon firing up a DC with a bunch of new A4s being "burned in".

Speaking of space heaters, those Titans ran at ~4w/MH and these A4s will be running at 3.2w/MH to make their 280MH specification so they will be pushing out their fair share of BTUs....

I would think that what ever KNC had in Titans was running. Not running them would have been stupid but I can't say that they were smart.

We are now first week of August and no pics of completed units or a production line with units being built. How about something being tested? You can't put boards together and then ship them out.

Well a couple of the guys just bought a big bunch of new/old stock Titans from KNC in the auction.  So I can tell you that they did in fact have a boatload of new miners sitting there.  A couple of the forum members here scored a nice batch of them in the first round, but were blown out of the water in the second round of the auction.

So there will be a bunch of Titan's coming online any time now.  Like excelerator said, I wouldn't sweat anything until we start getting to the latter part of Sept.  I know I will start to get pretty persistent with Inno at the end of this month on more details.

[usao]

But these titans were previously online, so it's not really like it's new hashrate. Perhaps idle for a while though.

[Longsnowsm]

But these titans were previously online, so it's not really like it's new hashrate. Perhaps idle for a while though.

I don't know how many of them were new in the box vs how many were online at one point.  I know some of them were new old stock.  So how much pressure we are going to see on diff is a question mark at the moment.

[Searing]

But these titans were previously online, so it's not really like it's new hashrate. Perhaps idle for a while though.

I don't know how many of them were new in the box vs how many were online at one point.  I know some of them were new old stock.  So how much pressure we are going to see on diff is a question mark at the moment.

as getting 6 nos knc 400mh 5 cube titans  as my share for 1900 each with shipping I can state my guesses

1) knc kept it quiet so they could get the titans back they were mining in the data hall..ie caught by surprise by higher ups bankruptcy annoucnement imho
..thus with cameras/security/liens etc
   only way to get the equip back was to bid on it..thus why the no info on coindesk (sam cole gets on there all the time) no info on their Swedish
   asic miner thread former sales thread ...zippo
.....we found out by accident asking about broke stuff we wanted to bid on that may have hit the trash heap but we thought...the old RMA stuf in the back...
   maybe no one even knows what a titan is there anymore from the staff turnover from 2 years ago etc..thus the law firm got a copy of this (again
the standard sales/customer support/sam cole email on their main page all does not work ..i tried myself.....as a 2nd aside to compare info I got NO
replies....the first ask about this stuff we were afraid would get tossed also included kurt's old tech email...that musta got thru...thus they had it
all locked up imho. We won the 1st auction of 24 due to this and shocking them was a closed bid auction the last 2 auctions were open bid and knc
proper imho walked in and took the works..cause they could see whatever was bid and just up'd it at 160 full size bid lots .ie tried to take it all got most.

2) at 400k for both auctions knc got approx 190 working 400 mh titans back I say...IF I can ROI in 5 months or so at 14.6c kwh per titan at knc's
supposed 4c kwh rate they can get this 400k back in like 3 months probably..so they HAD to bid in that it was trapped in the data hall you can
make big bucks on titans yet at 4c kwh imho was a no brainer had to keep it quiet and had to go for it all to get it back

3) they really really hate the IPO guys they stuck on the data halls etc investments....if they would have opened it up the sale to the world on these units imho would have gone
for much more...but being knc this his how they roll imho......just happy we escaped knc's Sargon's all seeing eye and got out of Mordor...we got
crushed in last two auctions..including the 3rd one which was partially working dross stuff and rma's but being dump and stupid and lucky fell into
the first one ..won it...spent the next two weeks while they struggled with the paperwork venting law firms to vent the bankruptcy law firm etc..(I now
have google street map skills of varous yuppie lawyer type addresses in Sweden....more useless skills lol)


Anyway KNC ...I WIN you dicks.....you are bankrupt.....I'm still minig and killing it...so there (putting aside the fact they have sock'd away millions of $$$
so don't bust my bubble I need a win here) anyway in denial or not I'm calling it a win...knc proper is out of business ...I'm still killing it on Titans so its a win in my book..
delusional though that may be...gonna go with it as my end game to knc's end game

hell at least we were a 'little bit of sand in the gears' on their plans.....anyway again calling it a win (but then again being evil we are still looking at 20% damage
rate on shipping and how it was put together with parts by temp workers ..and of course all cubes 120 or so have to be re-done due to crummy/wrong thermal paste
from what we can tell by heat compared to our regular cubes..but hey this is KNC we kinda expected that and was reflected in the bid of 1900 with shipping each...
so still calling it a win damn it)




knc...we do evil well! (tm knc)



er sorry kinda drifted off topic here but hey the OP started it POINTS AT OP!

but back to on topic of much MORE concern is HOW many A4 units are already out in the world to their IPO investors (assuming they got some as they asked) who have first dibs

Also innsilicon being a 'chip manufacturer" and its main reason to do these 14nm chips was to get it funded by IPO $$$ and asic chip/unit sales...thus when asic's all go away
as a chip manufacturer....they can use the infrastruture for NON asic 14 nm chips in the future ..a win win imho

so the concern to wrap up this rant ..if they are just in it to make chips and the more chips you make the more profit you make per chip and IF they are not gonna have their
own data hall (which limits how nuts you go releasing asic chips in the world....why wiz in your own profit pool)

THEN if the above is how it plays...these A4's are gonna (or the bulk chips also) gonna be more common then 'toasters' in the world soon especially if they got a nice
new 14nm equip process up and running for no cost...it will be balls to the wall baby .....A4 chips for everyone (shudder scared myself have baby Titans to nurture yet )

[Longsnowsm]

I don't know that we have really touched on this topic in this thread, but something to keep in the back of your mind is the fact that this pre-order was at a steeply discounted price.  It would not surprise me in the least if the retail A4 sells for more like $8-$10 a MH.  If you look at the prices you can still get for a Titan(if you can find one that is in good working condition) it appears clear that the cost per MH for a good Titan is still well within the $8-$10 per MH range and I really doubt we will see that change with the A4.

So if your sitting on the fence about getting a A4 I would seriously give that some thought.  I think at this pre-order price we can get ROI, but at $10 per MH that math starts to get tougher.   I think $1800 per A4 is going to look like a bargain and some of you might to start kicking yourself for not taking the risk.

The reason I bring this up is that I am hoping to be able to add a couple more A4's by the end of the year to my existing pre-buy order, but then I started chewing on the numbers and realized I was making a bad assumption that we would be able to buy more A4's for this pre-buy price.  The market is still up in the $8-$10 a MH range so that would mean quite a bit higher cost for my additional miners. 

So that changes my planning going forward.  I thought I would mention it to you guys because I think my brain was connecting the dots for additional A4's at this preorder price, and I don't think that is likely for some time.  Once these pre-buy unit start to ship I think we will be glad we made the purchase at these prices.

[excelerator]

Historically the opposite has been true and there's little evidence that will change.  For instance, look at Bitmain pricing.  The price drops with each new batch released of a new  model when the BTC price is "stable".

The advantage of a pre-order is about the difficulty advantage, not purchased $/MH.  As the market floods with new hashrate, which it will with the A4,  this increased total network hashrate drives down the effective return per MH as the difficulty increases for scrypt coins.

Basically, the purchase price remains unchanged but the ROI time period will increase for subsequent batches effectively making subsequent batches "more expensive" and a riskier investment.

This effect will also drive down the purchase $/MH for Titans to a max of $6.42/MH (probably $5/MH as they are less energy efficient) as the increasing network hashrate of A4s devalues and knocks the reigning king off the throne.

When the A4s start coming on the market is the time to start selling Titans and convert to A4s.

The only way the $/MH price increases is if there's an explosive upside in the LTC price.

If we assume today's LTC price, plus a .5% difficulty increase (really, really low), it will take 448 days to ROI at USD $0.1/KWh for USD $2100 rig ($1800 + $100 shipping + $200 PSU).  I firmly believe there will be no price increase until the LTC price explodes.
http://www.vnbitcoin.org/detailcalculationltc.php?name=LiteCoin_Mining_Rig&startdate=2016-08-06&costperunit=2100&wattperhour=1000&gigahazarate=280000&daytoincrease=3&testlopfirst=1&diffincrement=0.5&bitcoinperdollar=3.74&electriccostinput=.1&begindifflevel=52332

This is a similar ROI for a new S9 bought on ebay ($2500 plus $200 PSU) which is approximately 470 days to ROI at today's BTC price
http://www.vnbitcoin.org/detailcalculation.php?name=Bitcoin_Mining_Rig&startdate=2016-08-06&costperunit=2700&wattperhour=1390&gigahazarate=12930&daytoincrease=14&testlopfirst=9&diffincrement=0.34&bitcoinperdollar=585.9&electriccostinput=.1&begindifflevel=201893210853

[Longsnowsm]

Historically the opposite has been true and there's little evidence that will change.  For instance, look at Bitmain pricing.  The price drops with each new batch released of a new  model when the BTC price is "stable".

The advantage of a pre-order is about the difficulty advantage, not purchased $/MH.  As the market floods with new hashrate, which it will with the A4,  this increased total network hashrate drives down the effective return per MH as the difficulty increases for scrypt coins.

Basically, the purchase price remains unchanged but the ROI time period will increase for subsequent batches effectively making subsequent batches "more expensive" and a riskier investment.

This effect will also drive down the purchase $/MH for Titans to a max of $6.42/MH (probably $5/MH as they are less energy efficient) as the increasing network hashrate of A4s devalues and knocks the reigning king off the throne.

When the A4s start coming on the market is the time to start selling Titans and convert to A4s.

The only way the $/MH price increases is if there's an explosive upside in the LTC price.

If we assume today's LTC price, plus a .5% difficulty increase (really, really low), it will take 448 days to ROI at USD $0.1/KWh for USD $2100 rig ($1800 + $100 shipping + $200 PSU).  I firmly believe there will be no price increase until the LTC price explodes.
http://www.vnbitcoin.org/detailcalculationltc.php?name=LiteCoin_Mining_Rig&startdate=2016-08-06&costperunit=2100&wattperhour=1000&gigahazarate=280000&daytoincrease=3&testlopfirst=1&diffincrement=0.5&bitcoinperdollar=3.74&electriccostinput=.1&begindifflevel=52332

This is a similar ROI for a new S9 bought on ebay ($2500 plus $200 PSU) which is approximately 470 days to ROI at today's BTC price
http://www.vnbitcoin.org/detailcalculation.php?name=Bitcoin_Mining_Rig&startdate=2016-08-06&costperunit=2700&wattperhour=1390&gigahazarate=12930&daytoincrease=14&testlopfirst=9&diffincrement=0.34&bitcoinperdollar=585.9&electriccostinput=.1&begindifflevel=201893210853

I hope your right, it would sure save me some money on the next purchases that I have planned...

I was simply using the yardstick of existing Titan prices per MH as I think the first batch that goes retail from Inno will likely be priced in that range, and probably will drop over time, or we will see the hash rate increase as they refine the A4 and price hold steady.  

I expect the first batch retail to be kinda spendy in that $8-10 a MH range.  I could be wrong, but that is I what I suspect.  I am currently just trying to get my finances lined up for the follow on retail purchases which is what brought this to my thought process and thought I would share.  If that works out to be correct then the pre-buy batch one will be a bargain.

We will find out soon enough.  

On the S9, each follow on batch has had a lower hash rate, and the cost per hash has not really fallen in those batches.  Ant is the only game in town so there is little pressure for them to lower prices.  The same will be true for Inno if they ship the A4 they will be the only game in town.  So I don't seen pressure on them to drop prices soon.

[excelerator]

Keep in mind the A4 Dominator is in competition with the Antminer S9 for customer mining rig dollar spend as far as ASIC mining rigs goes.

Putting aside the hobbyist market, businesses will purchase ASIC based rigs based on projected ROI, long viability of mining technologies, future demand for digital currencies, etc.

There's only so many mining rig dollars available in the market so it'll be interesting to watch how this new scrypt mining technology unfolds

[excelerator]

I hope your right, it would sure save me some money on the next purchases that I have planned...

As you know, it's not about the money you save on the purchase but rather the return on the money invested based on difficulty, power costs and coin price.   If the A4 is wildly successful from a units sale, we're going to experience real pressure on difficulty thus the ROI.

I haven't done the math yet, but hopefully it will flush out  the  old Gridseeds, Zeus, Gawminers, even the A2s to losing positions and drop that collective hashrate if they start delivery in September.  I believe we can expect the old scrypt technology hash rate to drop off in early fall, only to return when the "space heater" effect again begins with the onset of winter in the northern hemisphere.  If Innosilicon delays deliver to late September, early October, then the space heater effect will have begun and the hashrate could be ugly.  The  sooner delivery starts, the sooner the recovery of capital can begin.

[QuintLeo]

On the S9, each follow on batch has had a lower hash rate, and the cost per hash has not really fallen in those batches.  Ant is the only game in town so there is little pressure for them to lower prices.  The same will be true for Inno if they ship the A4 they will be the only game in town.  So I don't seen pressure on them to drop prices soon.

 S9 batch hashrates have actually bounced around a bit - mostly 11.73 and 12.83 or something like that.
 Seems like Bitmain had to start testing the chips individually before binning them for various clock speeds and resulting various hashrates.

A2's, Alcheminers, and especially Titans won't "flush out" for quite a while for those of us with VERY CHEAP electric - I've already RUN those numbers for my A2 farm and I update occasionally to account for price variation.
 I haven't bothered running the numers for "update the firmware to one of the varients that let me run the thing in even more efficient mode" yet as I suspect there isn't a lot efficiency gain available past the "non-turbo" setting of the stock firmware.

Folks mining with A2s/Alcheminers at "average US rates" will get flushed pretty fast, but if you're at 5c/KWH or less you've got a LOT of space for maintaining profitable mining.

 Gridseeds, on the other hand, are ALREADY very marginal to losing money at 5c/KWH - won't take much to start flushing those.
 Zeus, Silverfish, etc, fall somewhere inbetween depending on the specific miner.


 The joker in the pack is "when will the S9 get COMPETITION" - if it's in the next month or two, that will probably put a significant crimp on A4 sales.

[usao]

I know it's off topic, but since someone else brought it up, has there been any talk of a follow-on miner for the S9?

[Searing]

Historically the opposite has been true and there's little evidence that will change.  For instance, look at Bitmain pricing.  The price drops with each new batch released of a new  model when the BTC price is "stable".

The advantage of a pre-order is about the difficulty advantage, not purchased $/MH.  As the market floods with new hashrate, which it will with the A4,  this increased total network hashrate drives down the effective return per MH as the difficulty increases for scrypt coins.

Basically, the purchase price remains unchanged but the ROI time period will increase for subsequent batches effectively making subsequent batches "more expensive" and a riskier investment.

This effect will also drive down the purchase $/MH for Titans to a max of $6.42/MH (probably $5/MH as they are less energy efficient) as the increasing network hashrate of A4s devalues and knocks the reigning king off the throne.

When the A4s start coming on the market is the time to start selling Titans and convert to A4s.

The only way the $/MH price increases is if there's an explosive upside in the LTC price.

A 325mh used Titan does 1250 watts vs a 280mh at 1000 watts.

Maybe 1 out of 20 used Titans could still do 350mh now as a prudent speed due to age
A 400mh has better effencency then that

Thus it is so close in electric vs hash imho as to be oranges to oranges and at the point a Titan can no longer be run the same could be said about an A4. They are so close when both get to that point on difficulty you'd be selling either in your stock or more likely both.

[Longsnowsm]

I know it's off topic, but since someone else brought it up, has there been any talk of a follow-on miner for the S9?

I haven't heard anything mentioned yet.  People are just waiting for new batches to be released at this point. 

[excelerator]

A 325mh used Titan does 1250 watts vs a 280mh at 1000 watts.

Maybe 1 out of 20 used Titans could still do 350mh now as a prudent speed due to age
A 400mh has better effencency then that

Thus it is so close in electric vs hash imho as to be oranges to oranges and at the point a Titan can no longer be run the same could be said about an A4. They are so close when both get to that point on difficulty you'd be selling either in your stock or more likely both.

As you imply above,  due to age these Titans are failing.  Today a Titan may be close to an A4 for efficiency, but even with add-on heat sinks, X-brackets and GenTarkin upgrades, these rigs are slowing down.  As with any capital investment of computer technology, Titans have a lifecycle and  are coming to their end of life.  Days, weeks, months, even years, depending on multiple factors but they are declining.   Refreshing Titans with A4s just makes sense if you're in this for the long term while you have the hashrate. 

Now, if we could just see an A4 in the wild that would be huge!.  We still don't have the promised Youtube video of the final product, final warranty, release date, RMA process or any evidence that the A4 is close to release other than a web page posting, some emails and a video of a test chip.  Fortunately Innosilicon is an established reputable player so we remain hopeful they can overcome their design/manufacturing issues and bring the A4 to market soon.

[QuintLeo]

A 325mh used Titan does 1250 watts vs a 280mh at 1000 watts.

Maybe 1 out of 20 used Titans could still do 350mh now as a prudent speed due to age
A 400mh has better effencency then that

Thus it is so close in electric vs hash imho as to be oranges to oranges and at the point a Titan can no longer be run the same could be said about an A4. They are so close when both get to that point on difficulty you'd be selling either in your stock or more likely both.

 On the other side of the scale, Titans have shown a VERY VERY POOR record for longevity, while earlier Innosilicon-based miners like the LKEtc Dragon line and the A2 Terminators have shown rock-solid LONG TERM reliability.

 The ONLY saving grace to the Titan at this point is that they're all well past their HUGE ISSUES with infant mortality.

[Longsnowsm]

A 325mh used Titan does 1250 watts vs a 280mh at 1000 watts.

Maybe 1 out of 20 used Titans could still do 350mh now as a prudent speed due to age
A 400mh has better effencency then that

Thus it is so close in electric vs hash imho as to be oranges to oranges and at the point a Titan can no longer be run the same could be said about an A4. They are so close when both get to that point on difficulty you'd be selling either in your stock or more likely both.

 On the other side of the scale, Titans have shown a VERY VERY POOR record for longevity, while earlier Innosilicon-based miners like the LKEtc Dragon line and the A2 Terminators have shown rock-solid LONG TERM reliability.

 The ONLY saving grace to the Titan at this point is that they're all well past their HUGE ISSUES with infant mortality.

At this point it looks like the guys who have the Titans have figured out the secrets to keeping them running cool and efficient.  I don't think those that know what they are doing will have any issues keeping these rigs running for quite some time from the results I have seen from the mods they have done.  This is why I believe they are able to command such a high price still today.  The A4 with the announced hash rate doesn't change the game much so I don't think Titan owners have much to fear from the A4 with the currently announced hash rates. 

If Inno somehow starts cranking out the numbers they originally announced in the A4 then it would be game over for the Titans.  Who knows if we will see that? 

I agree with the statement about Inno having a good track record.  My A2 was rock solid for me and it was practically a set it and forget it rig.  I am hoping the A4 will be just as solid as the A2 was for me.  That was one of the deciding factors for me to just take the plunge and order. 

Now I just hope that Inno delivers!

[usao]

Anyone planning on a teardown/rebuild of their A4 when they get here?
Typical stuff, like swapping the grease, upgrading the fans etc???