[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[kslaughter]

One other income stream although related to hardware sales, is chip sales.  Avalon sold ~7.5 Million Dollars in chips is less than 2 months, should AMC have a better chip it could do the same or better.  So a 10% royalty whould bring in ~$750,000 to AMC confers and that would be about 0.01875/share or 22.218272307 X the current price of .00084390.

That sounds like a great idea, but you need to release the information of the chips asap so that third party individuals (like burnin and bkkcoins) start designing boards for the chips

We will be designing the boards for the chips.  However, the chips are still in R & D.

[kslaughter]

Todays Earnings Report:

[22naru]

Guys, the problem is pretty simple actually.

AMC needs to sell more shares, as it only sold 5M out of the initial 15M. --> AMC tries to sell more shares, at market price. --> AMC keeps being undercut. --> AMC thus, doesn't sell anything, or very little. --> AMC doesn't get the additional funds it needs, at the time it needs. --> AMC dies of starvation.

Please provide ways to solve the problem entitled "death by starvation".

My solution is an OPEN primary/secondary market like everyone else is doing outside bitcoin.

In BitFunder, I'd be happy with something like this (mock-up):

or if you like ... he can use "Options Trading" set the price and sell directly to  buyer..

[FloatesMcgoates]

Any idea on when the next 3 avalons will be coming in?

[canuckgal]

or if you like ... he can use "Options Trading" set the price and sell directly to  buyer..

Yea thats definitely an option, but it depends if KSlaughter wants to manually do this himself. 

We're looking for an Easy Button, and not a work around. 

[moneymanagment]

Can anyone remind me what are the dividends per share are going to be like with the 3 avalons running, also are they daily or weekly? I remember reading about it when the forum was only like 15 pages longs. Cant seem to find it though.

[somestranger]

Can anyone remind me what are the dividends per share are going to be like with the 3 avalons running, also are they daily or weekly? I remember reading about it when the forum was only like 15 pages longs. Cant seem to find it though.

These early dividends will likely be really small, like 10's of satoshis, since there are so many shares issued and not that much income yet. The real dividends will come if Ken pulls through with the thousands of Avalon chips and such. I believe dividends are either every week or less frequently, certainly not daily or we would have already seen one.

[bigdude]

The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

(...)

Thank you

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

There is another side to the coin which I think few are taking into account.

When we are talking in the real world with new share issues, IPO's and similar - the large investors 99.99999% are able to buy shares cheaper than retail investors.

So, myself for example, I am serious looking at buying a very large number of shares in AMC, but I would not go and by 2,000,000 shares right now from the market (bitfunder) for these reasons:

1. I would be driving the price up in order to soak up 2,000,000 shares - which initially looks good for investors, bad for me, but the price will most likely drop again anyway.

2. Why would I pay more than .0008 on the market, when I know that is the limit set by kslaughter

3. As a large investor, I would most certainly want and hope for a discounted rate than the present market rate.

How that would happen is probably best as a private transaction, but WITH public knowledge. Nothing under the table. I am a firm believer in that.

Then, as it is a private transaction, those shares released would then need to be stapled on to the market again.

My 2 satoshi's as an investor.

And yes, I am seriously interested in a large investment.

[LorenzoMoney]

BigDude,


The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.


Essentially, you are saying that because you are prepared to buy 2,000,000 shares at the artificially low price of .0005 right now, that Ken should make a deal with you, outside of the market.

Your post seems like you are soliciting such a deal. As long as you are making an argument for why Ken should sell shares directly, why shouldn't he make an offer to the investors who have shown confidence in AMC already, and offer those 2,000,000 million shares to all the investors who already own over 1,000,000 shares?  Why should such an offer be made to you, BigDude?

And, why should 2,000,000 shares at .0005 be sold to you? You have no obligation not to just turn around and sell those shares immediately for .0008. Essentially, you are asking Ken to just give you 600 bitcoin for buying a large block of shares. At the moment, that is a gift of $60,000 for buying $100,000 shares.

How does AMC benefit from that sort of deal with you instead of just offering the 2,000,000 shares at market price and waiting for smaller investors, as an aggregate to buy up the shares?

2 million shares at .0008251 (the price now) is 1650.2 bitcoin. If sold to you and .0005, AMC would only get 1000 bitcoin. Should AMC lose out on a potential 650 bitcoin (or $65,000 at today's exchange rate) just because you are a "large investor"?

Further, even a deal done outside of the exchange would affect the market price, if not immediately, then eventually, since eventually, those share would get sold and that increased supply, when it does hit the market, would lower the price of the stock. It is simple economics and supply and demand.

No, BigDude, the only one who would benefit from such an outside deal would be you. AMC would not benefit, existing large investors in AMC would not benefit and Ken would not benefit from such a deal.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

(...)

Thank you

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

There is another side to the coin which I think few are taking into account.

When we are talking in the real world with new share issues, IPO's and similar - the large investors 99.99999% are able to buy shares cheaper than retail investors.

So, myself for example, I am serious looking at buying a very large number of shares in AMC, but I would not go and by 2,000,000 shares right now from the market (bitfunder) for these reasons:

1. I would be driving the price up in order to soak up 2,000,000 shares - which initially looks good for investors, bad for me, but the price will most likely drop again anyway.

2. Why would I pay more than .0008 on the market, when I know that is the limit set by kslaughter

3. As a large investor, I would most certainly want and hope for a discounted rate than the present market rate.

How that would happen is probably best as a private transaction, but WITH public knowledge. Nothing under the table. I am a firm believer in that.

Then, as it is a private transaction, those shares released would then need to be stapled on to the market again.

My 2 satoshi's as an investor.

And yes, I am seriously interested in a large investment.



[/quote]

[lewicki]

When we are talking in the real world with new share issues, IPO's and similar - the large investors 99.99999% are able to buy shares cheaper than retail investors.

It all comes down to who is more desperate. Ken is in a good spot right now (he was supposed to release more shares when the Avalons started arriving, he has not). His actions (or lack thereof) and his words from a  few posts back say that he does not desperately need money at the moment and that he would not sell below .0008.

If I were Ken, I would sell to you or any other big slugger at a markup.

[Vbs]

bigdude raises some good points.

Scenario A: bigdude buys 2,000,000 shares from Ken at 0.0008. AMC thus receives BTC1600.

Scenario B: bigdude buys 2,000,000 shares at market price. AMC receives god knows how many BTC. Speculators rub their hands.

As a long-term investor in AMC there is not a doubt what is my choice of scenario. I am also personally withholding buying more shares on BitFunder until Ken sells another batch there.

[Vbs]

or if you like ... he can use "Options Trading" set the price and sell directly to  buyer..

Yes, this might function as a workaround for the time being!

For selling, for example at 0.0008, Ken could issue a "Call Option" of 5,000,000 shares with an expiration of one day at a strike price of 0.0007 and option price of 0.0001 (or 0.00011111) and breakable ofc.

Since BitFunder takes a 10% cut of the option price (not of the strike price), having it at 0.0001 keeps fees low, while at the same time gets costly for anyone trying to undermine the sell by buying the option without executing it. Issuing options daily with an expiration time of one day also serves this purpose. Anyone buying the option without executing it is also paying BTC to AMC.

(On the example above, AMC gets this way: 0.0007+0.0001*0.9 = 0.00079/share or 0.0007+0.00011111*0.9 = 0.00079999/share).

[stereotype]

or if you like ... he can use "Options Trading" set the price and sell directly to  buyer..

Yes, this might function as a workaround for the time being!

For selling, for example at 0.0008, Ken could issue a "Call Option" of 5,000,000 shares with an expiration of one day at a strike price of 0.0007 and option price of 0.0001 (or 0.00011111) and breakable ofc.

Since BitFunder takes a 10% cut of the option price (not of the strike price), having it at 0.0001 keeps fees low, while at the same time gets costly for anyone trying to undermine the sell by buying the option without executing it. Issuing options daily with an expiration time of one day also serves this purpose. Anyone buying the option without executing it is also paying BTC to AMC.

(On the example above, AMC gets this way: 0.0007+0.0001*0.9 = 0.00079/share or 0.0007+0.00011111*0.9 = 0.00079999/share).

I haven't agreed with your wish to 'over' control (my interpretation   ) the price, but for the purpose of issuing shares, the above kinda works. Trying to work out worst case scenarios??  

[Vbs]

I haven't agreed with your wish to 'over' control (my interpretation   ) the price, but for the purpose of issuing shares, the above kinda works. Trying to work out worst case scenarios??  

I have no wish to control the price, just the destination of my BTC.

[bigdude]

BigDude,


The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.


Essentially, you are saying that because you are prepared to buy 2,000,000 shares at the artificially low price of .0005 right now, that Ken should make a deal with you, outside of the market.

Your post seems like you are soliciting such a deal. As long as you are making an argument for why Ken should sell shares directly, why shouldn't he make an offer to the investors who have shown confidence in AMC already, and offer those 2,000,000 million shares to all the investors who already own over 1,000,000 shares?  Why should such an offer be made to you, BigDude?

You seem to be aiming my general comments about large investors at me personally - so don't. My comments are not solicitation of any kind. If I really did want to do that, I would go direct, no mucking around. And I certainly wouldn't have just voiced an opinion - and it is only that ... my opinion. My point about being a large investor, is that there is another side of the coin. It's no so simple as looking at it from one point of view.

A few points to make:

1. In the real world, we are talking Nasdaq and the like. There are institutional book builds done when an IPO or large share placement is done. This is the reality. And that was simply the point I was making. These book builds are where the big boys with the big $$$ essentially bid against each other for the shares. Once finalised, these are STILL at a discount to retail investors.

2. Continuing on from point 1. The business doing the IPO, they don't say hey, you have to pay retail prices that is best for our company. It doesnt work like that. They need the big $$$ coming in, yes even at a discount, in order to complete the placement of shares. Again, this was simply my point.

3. You ask Why should an offer be made to me? I never said it should, I am no one special. My point, again, is that if there are large investors willing to invest large sums into AMC, as a shareholder I would be ok with them doing that at a bit of a discount - because I understand the realities of points 1 and 2 above. Large investors are GOOD for the business, and good for shareholders. It's a sign of confidence.

Your post seems like you are soliciting such a deal. As long as you are making an argument for why Ken should sell shares directly, why shouldn't he make an offer to the investors who have shown confidence in AMC already, and offer those 2,000,000 million shares to all the investors who already own over 1,000,000 shares?  Why should such an offer be made to you, BigDude?

That's an exellent idea ... and yes, he should do that. He should make such an offer to those investors. Again, this was not about me. It's about AMC.

And, why should 2,000,000 shares at .0005 be sold to you? You have no obligation not to just turn around and sell those shares immediately for .0008. Essentially, you are asking Ken to just give you 600 bitcoin for buying a large block of shares. At the moment, that is a gift of $60,000 for buying $100,000 shares.

Again, not about me.
 

How does AMC benefit from that sort of deal with you instead of just offering the 2,000,000 shares at market price and waiting for smaller investors, as an aggregate to buy up the shares?

2 million shares at .0008251 (the price now) is 1650.2 bitcoin. If sold to you and .0005, AMC would only get 1000 bitcoin. Should AMC lose out on a potential 650 bitcoin (or $65,000 at today's exchange rate) just because you are a "large investor"?

Should google, facebook, or any other company in the world listed on the stock exchanges not offer large investors discounts too? There are reasons they do it. That is my point.

Lets say AMC wants to release 15 million shares right now because they need the funds to buy equipment NOW, right now. But then it takes a long time for those 15 million shares to be soaked up at full retail rates. This is one of the big reasons book builds are done with large investors. It guarantees that the business with get the funds ... and its good for the company, its good for investors.

What price, what discount ... that's up to the AMC. But yes, I think there should be one - if its needed.

Further, even a deal done outside of the exchange would affect the market price, if not immediately, then eventually, since eventually, those share would get sold and that increased supply, when it does hit the market, would lower the price of the stock. It is simple economics and supply and demand.

That is only one scenario. Another scenario is that someone comes in, buys 10,000,000 million shares, adds excellent stability, legitimacy, and liquidity to AMC - then AMC is able to make very large investments in chips, hardware etc. The market sees this, and more people want in, pushing the price up.

You see, you dont have a crystal ball, and neither do I.

No, BigDude, the only one who would benefit from such an outside deal would be you. AMC would not benefit, existing large investors in AMC would not benefit and Ken would not benefit from such a deal.

Again, its not about me. It's about AMC and shareholder value. You say AMC would not benefit. That's your OPINION. My OPINION is that it would.

[stereotype]

BigDude,


The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.


Essentially, you are saying that because you are prepared to buy 2,000,000 shares at the artificially low price of .0005 right now, that Ken should make a deal with you, outside of the market.

Your post seems like you are soliciting such a deal. As long as you are making an argument for why Ken should sell shares directly, why shouldn't he make an offer to the investors who have shown confidence in AMC already, and offer those 2,000,000 million shares to all the investors who already own over 1,000,000 shares?  Why should such an offer be made to you, BigDude?

You seem to be aiming my general comments about large investors at me personally - so don't. My comments are not solicitation of any kind. If I really did want to do that, I would go direct, no mucking around. And I certainly wouldn't have just voiced an opinion - and it is only that ... my opinion. My point about being a large investor, is that there is another side of the coin. It's no so simple as looking at it from one point of view.

A few points to make:

1. In the real world, we are talking Nasdaq and the like. There are institutional book builds done when an IPO or large share placement is done. This is the reality. And that was simply the point I was making. These book builds are where the big boys with the big $$$ essentially bid against each other for the shares. Once finalised, these are STILL at a discount to retail investors.

2. Continuing on from point 1. The business doing the IPO, they don't say hey, you have to pay retail prices that is best for our company. It doesnt work like that. They need the big $$$ coming in, yes even at a discount, in order to complete the placement of shares. Again, this was simply my point.

3. You ask Why should an offer be made to me? I never said it should, I am no one special. My point, again, is that if there are large investors willing to invest large sums into AMC, as a shareholder I would be ok with them doing that at a bit of a discount - because I understand the realities of points 1 and 2 above. Large investors are GOOD for the business, and good for shareholders. It's a sign of confidence.

Your post seems like you are soliciting such a deal. As long as you are making an argument for why Ken should sell shares directly, why shouldn't he make an offer to the investors who have shown confidence in AMC already, and offer those 2,000,000 million shares to all the investors who already own over 1,000,000 shares?  Why should such an offer be made to you, BigDude?

That's an exellent idea ... and yes, he should do that. He should make such an offer to those investors. Again, this was not about me. It's about AMC.

And, why should 2,000,000 shares at .0005 be sold to you? You have no obligation not to just turn around and sell those shares immediately for .0008. Essentially, you are asking Ken to just give you 600 bitcoin for buying a large block of shares. At the moment, that is a gift of $60,000 for buying $100,000 shares.

Again, not about me.
 

How does AMC benefit from that sort of deal with you instead of just offering the 2,000,000 shares at market price and waiting for smaller investors, as an aggregate to buy up the shares?

2 million shares at .0008251 (the price now) is 1650.2 bitcoin. If sold to you and .0005, AMC would only get 1000 bitcoin. Should AMC lose out on a potential 650 bitcoin (or $65,000 at today's exchange rate) just because you are a "large investor"?

Should google, facebook, or any other company in the world listed on the stock exchanges not offer large investors discounts too? There are reasons they do it. That is my point.

Lets say AMC wants to release 15 million shares right now because they need the funds to buy equipment NOW, right now. But then it takes a long time for those 15 million shares to be soaked up at full retail rates. This is one of the big reasons book builds are done with large investors. It guarantees that the business with get the funds ... and its good for the company, its good for investors.

What price, what discount ... that's up to the AMC. But yes, I think there should be one - if its needed.

Further, even a deal done outside of the exchange would affect the market price, if not immediately, then eventually, since eventually, those share would get sold and that increased supply, when it does hit the market, would lower the price of the stock. It is simple economics and supply and demand.

That is only one scenario. Another scenario is that someone comes in, buys 10,000,000 million shares, adds excellent stability, legitimacy, and liquidity to AMC - then AMC is able to make very large investments in chips, hardware etc. The market sees this, and more people want in, pushing the price up.

You see, you dont have a crystal ball, and neither do I.

No, BigDude, the only one who would benefit from such an outside deal would be you. AMC would not benefit, existing large investors in AMC would not benefit and Ken would not benefit from such a deal.

Again, its not about me. It's about AMC and shareholder value. You say AMC would not benefit. That's your OPINION. My OPINION is that it would.

Any chance to sell a portion of 15m at a discount, is perfectly fine with me. At the moment off-loading 15m seems a big ask (no pun intended!).

[stereotype]

The Avalon thread is reporting order status changes for order numbers #16xx. We are waiting for #1865.

[Vbs]

(...)

No, BigDude, the only one who would benefit from such an outside deal would be you. AMC would not benefit, existing large investors in AMC would not benefit and Ken would not benefit from such a deal.

Again, its not about me. It's about AMC and shareholder value. You say AMC would not benefit. That's your OPINION. My OPINION is that it would.

I pretty much agree with everything you said bigdude.

Anyone that prefers shares to be sold slowly has clearly no idea what Time Value of Money means, especially when talking about a mining cooperative that is constantly on an uphill battle against bitcoin network difficulty.

[stenkross]

I still don't agree with the back door selling of shares.
If Ken can't sell x shares for price y within time z, and that becomes a risk for AMC's operations, adjust the price accordingly.

I really don't see the problem with that.

If he really has a buyer for, say 2'000'000 shares, it's not very likely that flippers all of a sudden will undercut him with 2'000'000 shares (40% of all publicly owned shares).
Right now, there is ~75'000 shares for sale from .0009 and down.

So, maybe Ken will sell 1.9 million of his shares to the investor, and the remaining 100k will come from flippers that undercut him.

Again, I really don't see the problem here, but I might be missing something.

[Vbs]

I still don't agree with the back door selling of shares.
If Ken can't sell x shares for price y within time z, and that becomes a risk for AMC's operations, adjust the price accordingly.

I really don't see the problem with that.

If he really has a buyer for, say 2'000'000 shares, it's not very likely that flippers all of a sudden will undercut him with 2'000'000 shares (40% of all publicly owned shares).
Right now, there is ~75'000 shares for sale from .0009 and down.

So, maybe Ken will sell 1.9 million of his shares to the investor, and the remaining 100k will come from flippers that undercut him.

Again, I really don't see the problem here, but I might be missing something.

No back door selling, it's a public sell using the options feature, and anyone can purchase them by purchasing the respective option. No one is left out of the deal.

No investor would want to give away money to flippers instead of directly to AMC. That would be a waste of resources. Any big (or even small) investor would want his money to be reflected 100% on increasing AMC's avalilable funds. Speculators, on the other hand, don't care where the money lands or comes from, as long as there is profit to be made in the trade.

Very different audiences. Right now, the market favors speculators, without clear paths for investors to invest their money in AMC.

Bottom line: Buying AMC shares from anyone is not equal to investing in AMC. Buying shares from AMC is equal to investing in AMC.