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[TwitchySeal]

Are these games provably fair?

Thank you for the great feedback! We will be re-categorizing these shortly.

Edit: This has been updated. We have added a bonus to your account to thank you for your diligence. Best of luck to you!

It looks like the onetouch games are provably fair, but the playbetr dice game is not for 2 reasons:


1) As others have recently said, there's no explanation on how the result is determined from hashing (256 or 512?) the server seed and player seed.  For example, for this bet: https://www.betcoin.ag/transaction/59942673

Hashed server seed: 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462
Server seed: d61876a22c06d144dae10d8e2fcbb79ea1c98b0afa9bf87f03c0de16609e035b
Client seed: twitchyseed
Result: 29.15

hmac-512(server seed, player seed) returns this string: cd4a384abce5a10ca201bf1017c39200985f44caf5f8b3b5785a8fafe8a6f61bac356a4285f7817 40b944616ecab84c9569bf5e26caac872fddf70b05a562e24

You have to explain how you get 42.47 from that string.  provablyfair.co doesn't explain anything so it's not any help.  Most dice sites do something like take the first 5 characters of the string and convert them to a decimal.  I tried a few other sites methods without success so you must be doing something different (or I could've screwed something up).  


2) You aren't using the server seed that you hash and provide before the bet.  This defeats the entire purpose of provably fair since you can't prove that the server seed was determined before the bet was made.

I took a screen shot before making the bet from the example above:



You're not using the seed that's hashed and displayed under Next Round.  The actual hashed server seed for the next round was 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462.  I did this several times and the Next Round Hashed Server Seed was never used in the next round.

Providing the hashed server seed before the round proves that you didn't change it before knowing what my bet would be.

I'm don't know much php but in the code you posted, if that's the order the functions are executing then you're setting serverSeed and hashing it aftergetting clientSeed (the player seed).  For it to be provably fair you have to prove that serverSeed was set before fetching clientSeed.

Code:

$provable = Gamebetr\Provable::init()
// returns an instance of Gamebetr\Provable
setClientSeed(string $clientSeed = null)
This sets the client seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getClientSeed()
This returns the current client seed.

setServerSeed(string $serverSeed = null)
This sets the server seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getServerSeed()
This returns the current server seed.

getHashedServerSeed()
This returns the hashed version of the server seed.

Also, it's impossible to copy the Next Round Hashed Server Seed.  The copy button doesn't work, can't right click/ctrl + v/etc  and it's in an i-frame so I can't even access the html to copy it.  It does let me paste in the server seed field though...weird.


Edit: I checked the provably fair playbtr roulette and it's using the hashed seed that's displayed for next round - so it's just the dice game with that's not using it.

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[leea-1334]

Educational posts over the last week or so on Provably Fair algorithms. I think a lot of traditional providers do not understand the concept of this crypto gambling idea that everyone should be able to prove on their own that the algos used in the games can be verified and proven. They still think only if the result can be done on another site it is enough:)

Well done to all of you,,, keep our provably fair community healthy:)

[Betcoin.AG]

It looks like the onetouch games are provably fair, but the playbetr dice game is not for 2 reasons:


1) As others have recently said, there's no explanation on how the result is determined from hashing (256 or 512?) the server seed and player seed.  For example, for this bet: https://www.betcoin.ag/transaction/59942673

Hashed server seed: 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462
Server seed: d61876a22c06d144dae10d8e2fcbb79ea1c98b0afa9bf87f03c0de16609e035b
Client seed: twitchyseed
Result: 29.15

hmac-512(server seed, player seed) returns this string: cd4a384abce5a10ca201bf1017c39200985f44caf5f8b3b5785a8fafe8a6f61bac356a4285f7817 40b944616ecab84c9569bf5e26caac872fddf70b05a562e24

You have to explain how you get 42.47 from that string.  provablyfair.co doesn't explain anything so it's not any help.  Most dice sites do something like take the first 5 characters of the string and convert them to a decimal.  I tried a few other sites methods without success so you must be doing something different (or I could've screwed something up).  


2) You aren't using the server seed that you hash and provide before the bet.  This defeats the entire purpose of provably fair since you can't prove that the server seed was determined before the bet was made.

I took a screen shot before making the bet from the example above:



You're not using the seed that's hashed and displayed under Next Round.  The actual hashed server seed for the next round was 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462.  I did this several times and the Next Round Hashed Server Seed was never used in the next round.

Providing the hashed server seed before the round proves that you didn't change it before knowing what my bet would be.

I'm don't know much php but in the code you posted, if that's the order the functions are executing then you're setting serverSeed and hashing it aftergetting clientSeed (the player seed).  For it to be provably fair you have to prove that serverSeed was set before fetching clientSeed.

Code:

$provable = Gamebetr\Provable::init()
// returns an instance of Gamebetr\Provable
setClientSeed(string $clientSeed = null)
This sets the client seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getClientSeed()
This returns the current client seed.

setServerSeed(string $serverSeed = null)
This sets the server seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getServerSeed()
This returns the current server seed.

getHashedServerSeed()
This returns the hashed version of the server seed.

Also, it's impossible to copy the Next Round Hashed Server Seed.  The copy button doesn't work, can't right click/ctrl + v/etc  and it's in an i-frame so I can't even access the html to copy it.  It does let me paste in the server seed field though...weird.


Edit: I checked the provably fair playbtr roulette and it's using the hashed seed that's displayed for next round - so it's just the dice game with that's not using it.

This is excellent feedback. Exactly what we were looking for when we made our feedback thread. We will report this matter and have it resolved as soon as possible.

[beerlover]

^That is the difference between bitcoin and fiat, that is the difference between crypto casinos and traditional casinos. With bitcoin you know that you are getting a decentralized currency that couldn't be shaped however governments (or any central identity) could use to make rich people richer, with fiat they know what to do and bail out rich corporations with 20+ million bonus getting CEO's and their shareholders whereas people who are in trouble gets nothing at all.

Same goes with crypto casinos, we have provably fair and we know that casino will not screw us over, we can actually prove it, they can't even if they wanted to. That is a huge difference where you do not have to trust anyone to play, you just need to check the provably fair part. Whereas in a regular casino you go to, they could do anything they want.

[Betcoin.AG]

It looks like the onetouch games are provably fair, but the playbetr dice game is not for 2 reasons:


1) As others have recently said, there's no explanation on how the result is determined from hashing (256 or 512?) the server seed and player seed.  For example, for this bet: https://www.betcoin.ag/transaction/59942673

Hashed server seed: 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462
Server seed: d61876a22c06d144dae10d8e2fcbb79ea1c98b0afa9bf87f03c0de16609e035b
Client seed: twitchyseed
Result: 29.15

hmac-512(server seed, player seed) returns this string: cd4a384abce5a10ca201bf1017c39200985f44caf5f8b3b5785a8fafe8a6f61bac356a4285f7817 40b944616ecab84c9569bf5e26caac872fddf70b05a562e24

You have to explain how you get 42.47 from that string.  provablyfair.co doesn't explain anything so it's not any help.  Most dice sites do something like take the first 5 characters of the string and convert them to a decimal.  I tried a few other sites methods without success so you must be doing something different (or I could've screwed something up).  


2) You aren't using the server seed that you hash and provide before the bet.  This defeats the entire purpose of provably fair since you can't prove that the server seed was determined before the bet was made.

I took a screen shot before making the bet from the example above:



You're not using the seed that's hashed and displayed under Next Round.  The actual hashed server seed for the next round was 50f107cf159cddcd327dac23bddb8c4b0bdc545d5ed2514acce4652bf46b8462.  I did this several times and the Next Round Hashed Server Seed was never used in the next round.

Providing the hashed server seed before the round proves that you didn't change it before knowing what my bet would be.

I'm don't know much php but in the code you posted, if that's the order the functions are executing then you're setting serverSeed and hashing it aftergetting clientSeed (the player seed).  For it to be provably fair you have to prove that serverSeed was set before fetching clientSeed.

Code:

$provable = Gamebetr\Provable::init()
// returns an instance of Gamebetr\Provable
setClientSeed(string $clientSeed = null)
This sets the client seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getClientSeed()
This returns the current client seed.

setServerSeed(string $serverSeed = null)
This sets the server seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getServerSeed()
This returns the current server seed.

getHashedServerSeed()
This returns the hashed version of the server seed.

Also, it's impossible to copy the Next Round Hashed Server Seed.  The copy button doesn't work, can't right click/ctrl + v/etc  and it's in an i-frame so I can't even access the html to copy it.  It does let me paste in the server seed field though...weird.


Edit: I checked the provably fair playbtr roulette and it's using the hashed seed that's displayed for next round - so it's just the dice game with that's not using it.

This is excellent feedback. Exactly what we were looking for when we made our feedback thread. We will report this matter and have it resolved as soon as possible.

We always welcome excellent feedback and we have shared this information with the provider and are expecting an update on this by end of the week. 

Thank you.

[Betcoin.AG]

^That is the difference between bitcoin and fiat, that is the difference between crypto casinos and traditional casinos. With bitcoin you know that you are getting a decentralized currency that couldn't be shaped however governments (or any central identity) could use to make rich people richer, with fiat they know what to do and bail out rich corporations with 20+ million bonus getting CEO's and their shareholders whereas people who are in trouble gets nothing at all.

Same goes with crypto casinos, we have provably fair and we know that casino will not screw us over, we can actually prove it, they can't even if they wanted to. That is a huge difference where you do not have to trust anyone to play, you just need to check the provably fair part. Whereas in a regular casino you go to, they could do anything they want.

Excellent comments and thank you for sharing this.  We fully agree.

[Betcoin.AG]

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[Betcoin.AG]

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[djay202]

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I’ve never had a negative experience here & if there was ever an issue, it was always quickly solved and fixed. If you’re going to be betting via crypto this  is a book that won’t only have you feel welcome, you’ll feel at home.

Join in on the fun, and the family. Betting at Betcoin couldn’t be any better in my personal opinion. I’ve played for years and will continue to stick by there side.

[Betcoin.AG]

BetcoinAG is a place where gamblers will feel open and welcome. Not only does the book display a wide variety of sportsbook action, live casino tables that are constantly up to date & slots etc, they make you feel welcome. From the constant quick help from support, to quick and efficient deposit and withdraws there isn’t much you can’t find here at BetcoinAG. You’ll always find they’re doing there best to keep you up to date with games & also treat you fairly as possible when it comes to support and issues. They do an amazing job rewarding long playing customers as long as committed users to the family as well. 

I’ve never had a negative experience here & if there was ever an issue, it was always quickly solved and fixed. If you’re going to be betting via crypto this  is a book that won’t only have you feel welcome, you’ll feel at home.

Join in on the fun, and the family. Betting at Betcoin couldn’t be any better in my personal opinion. I’ve played for years and will continue to stick by there side.

Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback and experience.  We will continue to improve everyday and appreciate any suggestions that you may have anytime.

[Betcoin.AG]

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[DarkStar_]

I'm don't know much php but in the code you posted, if that's the order the functions are executing then you're setting serverSeed and hashing it aftergetting clientSeed (the player seed).  For it to be provably fair you have to prove that serverSeed was set before fetching clientSeed.

Code:

$provable = Gamebetr\Provable::init()
// returns an instance of Gamebetr\Provable
setClientSeed(string $clientSeed = null)
This sets the client seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getClientSeed()
This returns the current client seed.

setServerSeed(string $serverSeed = null)
This sets the server seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getServerSeed()
This returns the current server seed.

getHashedServerSeed()
This returns the hashed version of the server seed.

Those methods are from the README in the gamebetr/provable repository, which is just for verifying bets and unrelated to whatever order the code actually uses. I do hope that they are setting the server seed before somehow randomly generating a client seed. Most sites prove this by having client side javascript randomly generate a seed on site load, but since GameBetr's dice seems to be created in Unity, I don't think it's possible. Unfortunately you'll have to trust them on that or set your own seed.

Again, you do not show the algorithm with which you calculate results, so the game is unverifiable and therefore not provably fair.

How did an 'independent 3rd party site' know how to implement the PF without having access to the code? Very independent and third party indeed 

The 'independent 3rd party site' also sends a request to the server to get a result, rather than generating it on client side. I strongly suspect that it isn't exactly independent either, so GameBetr could technically cheat by faking results on the verification site as well and just hoping that players won't verify it themselves. It's pretty annoying to verify too, since it relies on PHP's specific implementation of Mersenne Twister.

Since they seem to use a unique approach to provably fair (it would have been much nicer if they just copied the standard nonce based method instead of trying to reinvent the wheel), I wrote a open source, and truly independent verifier that players can use if they want using purely client side JS. Here's an example of a verified bet.

I still wouldn't recommend playing their dice just because it seems to be pretty poorly made in general.

[Betcoin.AG]

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[Betcoin.AG]

I'm don't know much php but in the code you posted, if that's the order the functions are executing then you're setting serverSeed and hashing it aftergetting clientSeed (the player seed).  For it to be provably fair you have to prove that serverSeed was set before fetching clientSeed.

Code:

$provable = Gamebetr\Provable::init()
// returns an instance of Gamebetr\Provable
setClientSeed(string $clientSeed = null)
This sets the client seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getClientSeed()
This returns the current client seed.

setServerSeed(string $serverSeed = null)
This sets the server seed. If no seed is provided, one will be automatically generated. The Provable instance is returned allowing you to chain commands.

getServerSeed()
This returns the current server seed.

getHashedServerSeed()
This returns the hashed version of the server seed.

Those methods are from the README in the gamebetr/provable repository, which is just for verifying bets and unrelated to whatever order the code actually uses. I do hope that they are setting the server seed before somehow randomly generating a client seed. Most sites prove this by having client side javascript randomly generate a seed on site load, but since GameBetr's dice seems to be created in Unity, I don't think it's possible. Unfortunately you'll have to trust them on that or set your own seed.

Again, you do not show the algorithm with which you calculate results, so the game is unverifiable and therefore not provably fair.

How did an 'independent 3rd party site' know how to implement the PF without having access to the code? Very independent and third party indeed 

The 'independent 3rd party site' also sends a request to the server to get a result, rather than generating it on client side. I strongly suspect that it isn't exactly independent either, so GameBetr could technically cheat by faking results on the verification site as well and just hoping that players won't verify it themselves. It's pretty annoying to verify too, since it relies on PHP's specific implementation of Mersenne Twister.

Since they seem to use a unique approach to provably fair (it would have been much nicer if they just copied the standard nonce based method instead of trying to reinvent the wheel), I wrote a open source, and truly independent verifier that players can use if they want using purely client side JS. Here's an example of a verified bet.

I still wouldn't recommend playing their dice just because it seems to be pretty poorly made in general.

Excellent feedback and we are informed that the provider is making improvements.  We have advised them to review your statements here in detail.

[Betcoin.AG]

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[TwitchySeal]

Since they seem to use a unique approach to provably fair (it would have been much nicer if they just copied the standard nonce based method instead of trying to reinvent the wheel), I wrote a open source, and truly independent verifier that players can use if they want using purely client side JS. Here's an example of a verified bet.

Nice work.   How did you figure out that this is what they're doing to HMac256(server, client)?  Just curious since I tried and failed.

Code:

let hash = CryptoJS.HmacSHA256(serverSeed, clientSeed).toString();
    let PRNGSeed = parseInt(`0x${hash.substr(hash.length - 8)}`);
    mt.srand(PRNGSeed);
    document.getElementById("resultBox").className = "card mt-3 bg-success"
    document.getElementById("resultText").innerHTML = `Roll: ${mt.rand(0, 10000)}`;

(Not familiar with the JSMTRand package)

[DarkStar_]

Since they seem to use a unique approach to provably fair (it would have been much nicer if they just copied the standard nonce based method instead of trying to reinvent the wheel), I wrote a open source, and truly independent verifier that players can use if they want using purely client side JS. Here's an example of a verified bet.

Nice work.   How did you figure out that this is what they're doing to HMac256(server, client)?  Just curious since I tried and failed.

Code:

let hash = CryptoJS.HmacSHA256(serverSeed, clientSeed).toString();
    let PRNGSeed = parseInt(`0x${hash.substr(hash.length - 8)}`);
    mt.srand(PRNGSeed);
    document.getElementById("resultBox").className = "card mt-3 bg-success"
    document.getElementById("resultText").innerHTML = `Roll: ${mt.rand(0, 10000)}`;

(Not familiar with the JSMTRand package)

Thanks! From the gamebetr/provable repository, we can find their PHP implementation to set the PRNG seed:

Code:

private function generateSeedInteger(): int
{
    return hexdec(substr(hash_hmac('sha256', $this->getServerSeed(), $this->getClientSeed()), -8, 8));
}

Then they just use PHP's built in mt_rand method to get the random number. JSMTRand was a package I found that specifically mentioned having the same Mersenne Twister implementation as PHP, so it would generate the same random numbers given the same seed.

[gadado]

Good investigation. But I think the op wil not reply to anybody, as he is only posting some promotions here and games.
We can not take Betcoin.ag serious anymore. How is it possible that these kind of sportbooks can still be active?

[TwitchySeal]

Good investigation. But I think the op wil not reply to anybody, as he is only posting some promotions here and games.
We can not take Betcoin.ag serious anymore. How is it possible that these kind of sportbooks can still be active?

They've been responding and it looks like they took dice out of their provably fair sections.

[Betcoin.AG]

Good investigation. But I think the op wil not reply to anybody, as he is only posting some promotions here and games.
We can not take Betcoin.ag serious anymore. How is it possible that these kind of sportbooks can still be active?

Hello, we believe that we have responded to each inquiry, but if we missed something, please let us know. You can always reach us directly via pm or support ticket, but we agree that this matter is one which should be discussed openly. The dice game is still in BETA testing and some of the feedback from this thread has been crucial to help us make it to the final release. Thanks to everyone who has provided constructive comments in the thread.