Problems with bitcoin-24.com WARNING! UPDATE!

[donjoe]

Except some of us moved in via BTC transfer, so we have no proof we ever paid Simon any real money that we could be entitled to get back.

[Javen]

omg

[Butterkeks]

Also I understand there´s been established a german facebook group dedicated to hunt him down. Things are getting crazy.

This one? https://www.facebook.com/groups/258552767621734/

Remember what happened to James Amburn?  

[ZephramC]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand one question. Bitcoin is not money from legal point of view, why is Simon obliged to send the coins back? It's the same as if u requested to send back electronic letters u sent to him. Could anyone explain?

He's under no obligation. It's a trust issue but he's at a disadvantage as he's known but doesn't necessarily know all his depositors. It's a bit of a lottery really. All it takes is for him not to pay back the wrong person's bitcoin. In that case the law would be the least of his worries.

See the 'protective custody' post above.

There's a lot of paranoid drug dealers who feel slighted at the most minor things. Imagine one of them saw simon's wide open site (with courier cash deliveries etc), deposited and then felt like simon robbed him? He's not going to be going to the law.

This is exactly why I do not understand why Simon is not communicating more and returning  at least our bitcoins. He does not see this threat of some really, really angry customer?

[Amitabh S]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand one question. Bitcoin is not money from legal point of view, why is Simon obliged to send the coins back? It's the same as if u requested to send back electronic letters u sent to him. Could anyone explain?

He's under no obligation. It's a trust issue but he's at a disadvantage as he's known but doesn't necessarily know all his depositors. It's a bit of a lottery really. All it takes is for him not to pay back the wrong person's bitcoin. In that case the law would be the least of his worries.

See the 'protective custody' post above.

There's a lot of paranoid drug dealers who feel slighted at the most minor things. Imagine one of them saw simon's wide open site (with courier cash deliveries etc), deposited and then felt like simon robbed him? He's not going to be going to the law.

This is exactly why I do not understand why Simon is not communicating more and returning  at least our bitcoins. He does not see this threat of some really, really angry customer?

Umm, maybe because he doesn't want to return them?

[ivanc]

As previously said in the thread Simon is an accidental scammer. He was probably making huge losses caused by his engine fucks up, covering them by betting on bitcoin price increase.

I read his statements on IRC. At some point he says that a youtube video exemplifying the transaction bug is "a joke". He goes as far as pretending that the video is made-up. He's the only one believing in his own lies.
It is clear that he's covering the losses.
Someone needs to tell him that it's ok, if he only lost 10% of the BTC and/or fiat, let his customers have 90%. This is more than enough. He just needs to admit it and get out of hiding.
The reason why he keeps quiet is that his "lawyer" told him to stop talking to people, because he's too dumb and will reveal the extent of the fraud through his naive lies.

His only way out is to start being honest and let more competent people sort the mess out, then paying people back the best they can. If he doesn't do that, if he instead gives the BTC and/or fiat to the german governement, i don't think he will come out of this mess alive.
I can say that I have 45,000 EUR (fiat + BTC) on Bitcoin 24 currently, and i'm not going to be the one who gives the order (and if I was, I wouldn't brag about it on a public forum), but i'm sure other people in the same situation will. At the end of this week, if nothing new has happened, the fate of our BTC + fiat will be clear.
Simon is young, stupid, but needs to know that. He can still fix things.

[donjoe]

The funniest part of this is how the mighty "Libertarians" who were so vocal before about individual freedom and how unnecessary or evil the state is and how ideal a completely unregulated free market would be etc. etc. are now all of a sudden running right back to the state crying "Mommy!" the second they get screwed by someone on exactly the kind of unregulated free market they always said they wanted.

[Amitabh S]

The funniest part of this is how the mighty "Libertarians" who were so vocal before about individual freedom and how unnecessary or evil the state is and how ideal a completely unregulated free market would be etc. etc. are now all of a sudden running right back to the state crying "Mommy!" the second they get screwed by someone on exactly the kind of unregulated free market they always said they wanted.

Its funny that you think only libertarians invest in Bitcoins. Most are there due to greed.

[ivanc]

The funniest part of this is how the mighty "Libertarians" who were so vocal before about individual freedom and how unnecessary or evil the state is and how ideal a completely unregulated free market would be etc. etc. are now all of a sudden running right back to the state crying "Mommy!" the second they get screwed by someone on exactly the kind of unregulated free market they always said they wanted.

Simon didn't screw anyone intentionally. Doing so when your identity is out in the open would be the same as committing suicide.

[ivanc]

The funniest part of this is how the mighty "Libertarians" who were so vocal before about individual freedom and how unnecessary or evil the state is and how ideal a completely unregulated free market would be etc. etc. are now all of a sudden running right back to the state crying "Mommy!" the second they get screwed by someone on exactly the kind of unregulated free market they always said they wanted.

Its funny that you think only libertarians invest in Bitcoins. Most are there due to greed.

99% in fact.
I invested in Bitcoin myself to make money. For myself.

[Beutelschneider]

Except some of us moved in via BTC transfer, so we have no proof we ever paid Simon any real money that we could be entitled to get back.

i only moved BTC in, its all in the transaction history of the client/wallet! if not, there is always the blockchain

[donjoe]

Simon didn't screw anyone intentionally. Doing so when your identity is out in the open would be the same as committing suicide.

I fully realize that. That's just because the only notion of "justice" available in this joke of a philosophy that is right-wing extremist "Libertarianism" is that of a jungle where people kill eachother for anything like crazed psychopaths.

[Amitabh S]

Is there something called unintentional rape?

[adamater]

btc-e has never stolen my money

[ivanc]

Simon didn't screw anyone intentionally. Doing so when your identity is out in the open would be the same as committing suicide.

I fully realize that. That's just because the only notion of "justice" available in this joke of a philosophy that is right-wing extremist "Libertarianism" is that of a jungle where people kill eachother for anything like crazed psychopaths.

The "regulated" world is not that much better off, when we see what happened around Madoff in the years after the scandal for instance...
And let's see what happens to him when he gets out too.

[ZephramC]

The funniest part of this is how the mighty "Libertarians" who were so vocal before about individual freedom and how unnecessary or evil the state is and how ideal a completely unregulated free market would be etc. etc. are now all of a sudden running right back to the state crying "Mommy!" the second they get screwed by someone on exactly the kind of unregulated free market they always said they wanted.

Maybe the Libertarians do not want state and police and government (and not even Simon's lawyer actually) to solve this. They want Simon to solve this.

[donjoe]

The "regulated" world is not that much better off, when we see what happened around Madoff in the years after the scandal for instance...

No idea what you mean.

And let's see what happens to him when he gets out too.

He's probably gonna get buried when he gets out, seeing as he's serving a life sentence.

[JackomoLight]

that was a nasty problem there

[michaelGedi]

apparently Simon is currently online in this forum...

I've sent him a message asking him to communicate more please because of all you angry people 

[DeathAndTaxes]

Umm, maybe because he doesn't want to return them?

This.

Occam's Razor

If he intends to return the BTC it would be in his best interest to do so quickly to restore confidence.
He has had ample time to return the BTC.
He has no returned the BTC.
(insert most likely conclusion here)