Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[billyjoeallen]

So here is a stupid question to kill time: Suppose the Evil Lords decide to use the bitcoins seized from Silk Road and other places to kill bitcoin by spamming it with billions of tiny transactions, as fast as they can.  How would the network defend itself from that attack?

I am guessing, but I thought that the network just processes transactions in the order received, and if there is a fee attached, then those transactions are processed first. 

Billions is a lot... and I suppose that the problem could be made worse by creating some repetition of the transactions - after the first ones are processed, they are put back into the cue.

 If there are so many transactions that the network is overwhelmed... the network may go down for a period of time. and then maybe a fork in the code to restart?  YES>... I am continuing to guess.

You know you have an anti-fragile system when the worst thing your enemies can do is throw money at you.

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[JayJuanGee]

So here is a stupid question to kill time: Suppose the Evil Lords decide to use the bitcoins seized from Silk Road and other places to kill bitcoin by spamming it with billions of tiny transactions, as fast as they can.  How would the network defend itself from that attack?

To stop legitimate transactions, they have to be willing to pay more in fees than the legitimate transaction senders.  If they are willing to pay more, there isn't much we can do but wait for them to run out of coins.

The harm to the network would be less than the cost to the spammers. It would be like fighting you by punching your fist with my face.

Great Analogy.... !!!!

Even though you do NOT know about politics and the role of government in society, you certainly know about the bitcoin network.        

So here is a stupid question to kill time: Suppose the Evil Lords decide to use the bitcoins seized from Silk Road and other places to kill bitcoin by spamming it with billions of tiny transactions, as fast as they can.  How would the network defend itself from that attack?

I am guessing, but I thought that the network just processes transactions in the order received, and if there is a fee attached, then those transactions are processed first. 

Billions is a lot... and I suppose that the problem could be made worse by creating some repetition of the transactions - after the first ones are processed, they are put back into the cue.

 If there are so many transactions that the network is overwhelmed... the network may go down for a period of time. and then maybe a fork in the code to restart?  YES>... I am continuing to guess.

You know you have an anti-fragile system when the worst thing your enemies can do is throw money at you.

Another good point!!!!!!       

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

You have too many presumptions in your descriptions of events... and you are talking gobbledy gook.  First you praise and generalize about capitalists and then you suggest that the solution is to take away regulation.  That is all bullshit.  The problems that we have been having in recent times can be attributed too much liberty being given to capitalists and labor and government has been either too weak or too chickenshit to challenge the exploitation being carried out by capitalist.  Look at the situation created as recently as since 2008 whereby jobs have been removed to bust unions and to make people unemployed and to reintroduce jobs at fractions of the previous rates.  It was already bad before 2008, but got worse b/c capitalists (especially the filthy rich ones  - NOT talking about the mom and pop capitalists, here) were given too much freedom and NOT taxed and allowed to remove jobs and capital and NOT to reinvest. 

What planet are you living on? GM almost went out of business because the United auto-workers drove up input costs to the point that they could make no profits. Not small profits. NO PROFITS. Hummer and Oldsmobile had to be shut down because they just couldn't compete. Detroit is now a third world hellhole. Nonunion car factories are springing all over the south and the grandsons of the southerners who migrated to Detroit are migrating back.  You are not doing the laborers of the world any favors by driving their employers out of business. This has played out the same way in every heavily unionized industry on earth except for government workers.

I can guess what your solution will be: force every car maker to unionize. So then cars are too expensive to drive, workers get laid off anyway and we all have to ride the fucking bus to work, if we are lucky enough to have jobs at all. Can you even try to see yourself from our perspective? You appear crazy.

[Shak]

nah, now you are just plappering the stuff the lobbyists want you to think. gm and co failed because they didn't adapt to the changing market, not because labor was too expensive. in fact, if they pay their workers a good wage, they will buy new cars instead of used ones and will buy them more often instead of driving them until they are worth only the scrap-metal price.

look at countries with real worker unions, eg. germany. didn't got the notion that they are completely inable to deal on an international scale and compete in both, prices and quality.

i still just don't get it that people really believe this stuff. "hey, we need to pay you less, so we can grow each year and satisfy the investors." basically they are just moving money from your pocket (reduced wage) into the pockets of the billionaires (artificial growth by lowering production cost -> thus higher share value and dividends). to someone as sophisticated as this audience (more or less into investment) it should be plainly obvious.

[JayJuanGee]

You have too many presumptions in your descriptions of events... and you are talking gobbledy gook.  First you praise and generalize about capitalists and then you suggest that the solution is to take away regulation.  That is all bullshit.  The problems that we have been having in recent times can be attributed too much liberty being given to capitalists and labor and government has been either too weak or too chickenshit to challenge the exploitation being carried out by capitalist.  Look at the situation created as recently as since 2008 whereby jobs have been removed to bust unions and to make people unemployed and to reintroduce jobs at fractions of the previous rates.  It was already bad before 2008, but got worse b/c capitalists (especially the filthy rich ones  - NOT talking about the mom and pop capitalists, here) were given too much freedom and NOT taxed and allowed to remove jobs and capital and NOT to reinvest.  

What planet are you living on? GM almost went out of business because the United auto-workers drove up input costs to the point that they could make no profits. Not small profits. NO PROFITS. Hummer and Oldsmobile had to be shut down because they just couldn't compete. Detroit is now a third world hellhole. Nonunion car factories are springing all over the south and the grandsons of the southerners who migrated to Detroit are migrating back.  You are not doing the laborers of the world any favors by driving their employers out of business. This has played out the same way in every heavily unionized industry on earth except for government workers.

I can guess what your solution will be: force every car maker to unionize. So then cars are too expensive to drive, workers get laid off anyway and we all have to ride the fucking bus to work, if we are lucky enough to have jobs at all. Can you even try to see yourself from our perspective? You appear crazy.

First of all, it sounds as if you may have been watching too much Fox news, and you have a very narrow view of the situation (including the auto industry) which causes you to resort to personal attacks, and trying to attempt to assert that you have some kind of superior view of what is going on and that you are part of some enlightened group...  

Unions are NOT to blame for these supposed troubles that you attempt to describe.  For example, Germany is highly unionized, but they did NOT suffer the same troubles as the US in 2008 ish and thereafter, in part b/c of the unionization in Germany had input into the direction of the companies in germany and did NOT allow capitalists to vulturize companies to reduce jobs and wages and to paint some kind of fantasy land scenario that you describe.... about competition and that non-union is best and that we gotta be exploited in order to compete.. BS....

YES we already know your solution for nearly everything seems to be to get rid of government and to blame people, in spite of the fact that the wealthy have been extracting wealth from the people and NOT paying taxes and debilitating government in various ways....   which causes regular and poor people to have to bear more of the burden of what the rich should be contributing.   And the politicians have been going along with all of this  redistribution of wealth towards the rich... both parties have been going along with it... b/c there is too much money influencing politics and reducing the facilitation of democratic input.

nah, now you are just plappering the stuff the lobbyists want you to think. gm and co failed because they didn't adapt to the changing market, not because labor was too expensive. in fact, if they pay their workers a good loan, they will buy new cars instead of used ones and will buy them more often instead of driving them until they are worth only the scrap-metal price.

look at countries with real worker unions, eg. germany. didn't got the notion that they are completely inable to deal on an international scale and compete in both, prices and quality.

EXACTLY.....

[elebit]

What planet are you living on? GM almost went out of business because the United auto-workers drove up input costs to the point that they could make no profits. Not small profits. NO PROFITS.

You're so blinded by your ideology so you even have to make stuff up.

In reality, GM went out of business because they made cars nobody wanted to buy.

(My theory here is that it was because they were too late to prioritize fuel economy, in turn because the US has artificially deflated oil prices.)

Their European competitors paid their worker higher wages during the same period and they somehow managed to survive. That does not fit your description at all.

[JayJuanGee]

What planet are you living on? GM almost went out of business because the United auto-workers drove up input costs to the point that they could make no profits. Not small profits. NO PROFITS.

You're so blinded by your ideology so you even have to make stuff up.

In reality, GM went out of business because they made cars nobody wanted to buy.

(My theory here is that it was because they were too late to prioritize fuel economy, in turn because the US has artificially deflated oil prices.)

Their European competitors paid their worker higher wages during the same period and they somehow managed to survive. That does not fit your description at all.

Actually, I agree with your pointing out the stupidity and the myopic nature of Billyjoeallen's assertions; however, we cannot really be sure of the problems of GM exactly.  Kind of a snow job of a situation. GM pretty much had control of its books, the Union was forced to make concession while NOT being allowed to see the books, and the government intervened to bail out GM and to cause workers to take large ass concessions in order to save the company.  Surely, some government officials or government trustees may have found out financial circumstance of GM, but  the public did NOT find out these matters. 

IT may be correct that GM was NOT making competitive cars, but also there are a large number of other problems in the USA and maybe even other ways that GM may have been spending and or siphoning off money (quite separate from the expenses of labor - take CEO pay for one thing). 

[billyjoeallen]

You have too many presumptions in your descriptions of events... and you are talking gobbledy gook.  First you praise and generalize about capitalists and then you suggest that the solution is to take away regulation.  That is all bullshit.  The problems that we have been having in recent times can be attributed too much liberty being given to capitalists and labor and government has been either too weak or too chickenshit to challenge the exploitation being carried out by capitalist.  Look at the situation created as recently as since 2008 whereby jobs have been removed to bust unions and to make people unemployed and to reintroduce jobs at fractions of the previous rates.  It was already bad before 2008, but got worse b/c capitalists (especially the filthy rich ones  - NOT talking about the mom and pop capitalists, here) were given too much freedom and NOT taxed and allowed to remove jobs and capital and NOT to reinvest.  

What planet are you living on? GM almost went out of business because the United auto-workers drove up input costs to the point that they could make no profits. Not small profits. NO PROFITS. Hummer and Oldsmobile had to be shut down because they just couldn't compete. Detroit is now a third world hellhole. Nonunion car factories are springing all over the south and the grandsons of the southerners who migrated to Detroit are migrating back.  You are not doing the laborers of the world any favors by driving their employers out of business. This has played out the same way in every heavily unionized industry on earth except for government workers.

I can guess what your solution will be: force every car maker to unionize. So then cars are too expensive to drive, workers get laid off anyway and we all have to ride the fucking bus to work, if we are lucky enough to have jobs at all. Can you even try to see yourself from our perspective? You appear crazy.

First of all, it sounds as if you may have been watching too much Fox news, and you have a very narrow view of the situation (including the auto industry) which causes you to resort to personal attacks, and trying to attempt to assert that you have some kind of superior view of what is going on and that you are part of some enlightened group...  

Unions are NOT to blame for these supposed troubles that you attempt to describe.  For example, Germany is highly unionized, but they did NOT suffer the same troubles as the US in 2008 ish and thereafter, in part b/c of the unionization in Germany had input into the direction of the companies in germany and did NOT allow capitalists to vulturize companies to reduce jobs and wages and to paint some kind of fantasy land scenario that you describe.... about competition and that non-union is best and that we gotta be exploited in order to compete.. BS....

YES we already know your solution for nearly everything seems to be to get rid of government and to blame people, in spite of the fact that the wealthy have been extracting wealth from the people and NOT paying taxes and debilitating government in various ways....   which causes regular and poor people to have to bear more of the burden of what the rich should be contributing.   And the politicians have been going along with all of this  redistribution of wealth towards the rich... both parties have been going along with it... b/c there is too much money influencing politics and reducing the facilitation of democratic input.

nah, now you are just plappering the stuff the lobbyists want you to think. gm and co failed because they didn't adapt to the changing market, not because labor was too expensive. in fact, if they pay their workers a good loan, they will buy new cars instead of used ones and will buy them more often instead of driving them until they are worth only the scrap-metal price.

look at countries with real worker unions, eg. germany. didn't got the notion that they are completely inable to deal on an international scale and compete in both, prices and quality.

EXACTLY.....

Detroit car designs suck because all the smart engineers moved to Silicone Valley. German engineers didn't have that option. I wouldn't use Germany as a shining example of a worker's paradise if I were you. It's a place where they work year round to bail out Greeks and Italians who take summers off. They gave loans to other countries so that they could buy German cars and other products and now those countries are defaulting. That's not a good business model.

Their is no practical way to stop money from influencing politics. It has never been done anywhere, ever. We can only stop the influence OF politics. Capital is mobile and the rich will always flee to places where their property rights are protected. They don't like being slaves anymore than you do, and they have better options. Communism used to cover almost half the globe and now it's a backwater. This war has been fought and you lost. You never had a chance.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

Detroit car designs suck because all the smart engineers moved to Silicone Valley. German engineers didn't have that option. I wouldn't use Germany as a shining example of a worker's paradise if I were you. It's a place where they work year round to bail out Greeks and Italians who take summers off. They gave loans to other countries so that they could buy German cars and other products and now those countries are defaulting. That's not a good business model.

Sure there are going to be some differences between what companies in different places are doing, and the fact remains that the German car companies were strong in spite of unionization, and they are also, engaged in assisting in the bail out of weaker economies.  Powerful stuff.

Their is no practical way to stop money from influencing politics. It has never been done anywhere, ever. We can only stop the influence OF politics.

So frequently, you are in the practice of making things up and exaggerating facts, so even if this were true, about inability to remove money influence from politics, I would have difficulties believing it.  I am NOT going to waste my time to provide you examples in which money can be taken out or regulated from politics.  Logically, you have a losing argument to assert such, so emphatically.  I see that you like to be stubborn and stick to your facts, whether based in reality or NOT.

Capital is mobile and the rich will always flee to places where their property rights are protected.

Couple of points here:  1) Yes, capital is mobile and labor is NOT.  Rules have been made in that direction, and it remains a form of exploitation, the way that it plays out.  and 2) yes, some of you anti-governmental fanatics like to cite these kinds of examples in order to suggest and to argue that we should just give up and wave our white flags and allow race to the bottom politics in order that companies can bid down labor and regulations... b/c they will just go somewhere else if we do NOT kiss their asses and suck their dicks.  That is bullshit and disempowering to suggest that governments and people have no power over wealthy people or over wealthy corporations... again.. you are probably watching too much Fox News to be blurting out these right wing talking points that are pie in the sky and have only a semblance of reality contained therein.

They don't like being slaves anymore than you do, and they have better options.

Yeah.. .try to personalize these guys and try to get me and the rest of your audience to relate.  Part of the problem with the poor sympathizing with the rich too often is that they think the rich deserve their earnings and they believe that the rich are people like them...  b/c some day, these poor may be rich... .. Again, bullshit.... these rich people need to be paying more taxes and contributing.. and they are a major part of the problem about why the poor is bearing so many burdens and fighting for pie crumbs while the rich are running off with the pie...   if the rich paid their fair share then the poor would NOT have to bear so much burden..

Communism used to cover almost half the globe and now it's a backwater. This war has been fought and you lost. You never had a chance.

poor guy.. you figure that your back is against the wall and have to again resort to name calling.. I do NOT need to give dignity to your name calling... to try to label people as communists or socialists... They use those labels on Fox.. all the time to try to work their audience into a frenzy....

People can be responsible capitalists... and regulate companies and regulate the rich and tax the rich without being either communist or socialist.  So can you learn at some point to stick to discussions of substance rather than engaging in labeling and name calling?  I believe that you are capable of such self-restraint, b/c I had seen such in a few of your posts.. maybe in your more calm moments.

[JayJuanGee]

Billyjoeallen and JayJuanGee keep powering the thread along!!

no end in sight

That animation and caption is hilarious!!!!

[podyx]

^ lol

litecoin have more volume the bitcoin now btw 

[Hypnoise]

Billyjoeallen and JayJuanGee keep powering the thread along!!

no end in sight

I dont like it to be too horizontal

[chessnut]

if robots are the foundation of society, then we should all benefit equally from them.

Says who? We didn't all benefit equally from the domestication of cows. Some people are lactose intolerant. I really don't understand this obsession with equality that is unheard of in nature. It's completely subjective. Equality in outcomes or equality in opportunity? Equal rewards for effort or for productivity? The former produce what economists call "perverse incentives". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

You really should read this: http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

ok, personally I dont like the word 'should' either. but you are proposing a system that must both destroy work (innovation) and create work (capitalism) at the same time. that is not an answer.

either we share work and hoard money, or we share money and hoard work. they work equally.

what doesnt work is when you hoard work and money - then the french revolution happens all over again and the skilled and educated lose.

Technology doesn't destroy work! Displaced autoworkers become robot builders and technicians and the pool boys at the gated communities of the wealthier GM executives and stockholders! That extra margin that automakers gain by automation is spent back into the economy. That provides jobs for service industry workers, etc. Would you rather be an assembly line worker with repetitive stress injuries or a golf caddy? I honestly don't think that you've thought this through.

..... technologies sole purpose is to destroy work.

I do NOT agree that technology is a sole purpose to destroy work.  We should NOT necessarily be hostile to technology. 

One of the central problems with technology, though is that frequently it is used to distract labor from unionization and solidarity and thereby the capitalists frequently become able to use and abuse technology in such a way that they extract nearly all of the surplus for themselves and use technology to divide and conquer, workers, labor and community.  In the end, workers become more and more exploited by this b/c frequently if there are NOT strong governments and/or strong unions, they are NOT allowed to reap(enjoy) the benefits of the technological innovations.

People who believe in no government and/or no unions also seem to believe in trickle down economics, as if giving the money to the capitalists and the rich, that some how, miraculously, that money will trickle down to the people and somehow suggesting that the capitalists deserve to take all the surplus value.. so they can be rainmakers.  Frequently, however, we have seen that trickle down does NOT work and there are failures to invest in infrastructure, and running away with the capital and even capitalists who engage in behavior to accumulate much more capital than they need or want... and the situation with these filthy rich is NO longer about the accumulation of capital but a form of keeping the capital away from the masses b/c they want to control and exploit the masses and they want to insist that capital is NOT distributed to regular people... b/c of desires to keep an exploitable group willing to work for anything..

Billy, look it up in the dictionary, that is the definition of technology. technology makes things easier, it saves us work.
But I am not at all hostile to technology or innovation, I think they are both brilliant and absolutely necessary. There no good reason why someone should be doing a job that a machine can do better. we should all celebrate that our jobs have been taken from us by robots and machines. but when there are fewer and fewer jobs, why should this entail that the unemployed should suffer?
we should recieve credit from the machines that displace us.

[niothor]

^ lol

litecoin have more volume the bitcoin now btw 

And you've got that info from?

[podyx]

^ lol

litecoin have more volume the bitcoin now btw 

And you've got that info from?

http://coinmarketcap.com/

bitcoin has a little more now but was even 1 hour ago

[niothor]

^ lol

litecoin have more volume the bitcoin now btw  

And you've got that info from?

http://coinmarketcap.com/

bitcoin has a little more now but was even 1 hour ago

Yeah , too bad they count it wrong:

1. Bitcoin (40.73 %)
Source   Pair   Volume (24h)   Price   Volume (%)
BitcoinAverage   BTC/USD   $ 12,702,916   $ 642.69   100.00 %

2. Litecoin (37.24 %)
Source   Pair   Volume (24h)   Price   Volume (%)
BTC-E   LTC/USD   $ 5,377,607   $ 17.02   46.30 %
BTC-E   LTC/BTC   $ 3,766,777   $ 17.22   32.43 %

You can't really count the BTC/LTC pair only for one coin.

[podyx]

Yeah , too bad they count it wrong:

1. Bitcoin (40.73 %)
Source   Pair   Volume (24h)   Price   Volume (%)
BitcoinAverage   BTC/USD   $ 12,702,916   $ 642.69   100.00 %

2. Litecoin (37.24 %)
Source   Pair   Volume (24h)   Price   Volume (%)
BTC-E   LTC/USD   $ 5,377,607   $ 17.02   46.30 %
BTC-E   LTC/BTC   $ 3,766,777   $ 17.22   32.43 %

You can't really count the BTC/LTC pair only for one coin.

ok didnt know this

[seljo]

Dunno have you seen this or it is a re post but, http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/03/move-over-small-time-bitcoin-exchange-startups-wall-street-has-arrived/