Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Walsoraj]

https://blockchain.info/address/1933phfhK3ZgFQNLGSDXvqCn32k2buXY8a
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310600.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=508683.0

What do you guys make of this?

isnt that wasnt that the #1 richest bitcoin address?

it appears to be getting split into blocks of 10K coins

Believe to be a silk road address. Now there is speculation (wishful thinking) that Gox owns it and is preparing to distribute formerly lost funds.

[1714678005]

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[JorgeStolfi]

Jorge did you buy a bitcoin yet?

No, but I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.   

[adamstgBit]

Jorge did you buy a bitcoin yet?

No, but I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.   

i'll code the back end in C++

the server will handle 21million trades per second.

[billyjoeallen]

Also, I would NOT categorize taxation as an involuntary taking.... ... even though there are some difficulties in electing within which society (community) and set up that we want to live.  The role of government tends to be a complicated topic... and such topic has been especially inflammatory from time to time....

Try not paying and see what happens. Just because a gang outnumbers you does not make the robbery any the less.

I prefer NOT to get into drawn out discussion about the role of government, and/or the extent to which there is a consensual nature to being governed or being a part of a society. 

Nonetheless, I am suggesting that equating individualized theft (or being robbed by a corporation or being defrauded) with taxation will cause considerable oversimplification about the differing concepts and differing dynamics. 

Viewing taxation as theft (or as an involuntary taking) is bringing the wrong framework b/c questions about taxation are a lot more complicated than theft  or other categories of involuntary takings.  For example, you mention the size of the gang... and this seems to be fuzzy logic to view government as a gang.. .. as if you are being ganged up upon and that government is something apart from one's self... even though there remain tensions between community and self, theft is different.

It actually is the exact same thing. It's just that in the case of taxation the group doing the taken are much more powerful and at the same time believe (for the most part) that they are morally in the right (which they aren't in my opinion).

You as a citizen have a role in government, and you have a choice in where to live. 

Government is not Other people ganging up on you - even though frequently, it may seem as if an individual cannot do much to change the society in which s/he lives, but government is NOT the same as a thief. 

I have already made my point several times that a person asserting that the government is the same as a thief is failing to recognize complexity.. and chooses to simplify to the point of losing the point.. and if you keep repeating it over and over that government is the same it is the same, that does NOT prove any point.  Accordingly, there is NOT much use of continuing such a conversation in which I am saying that government is different from a thief.. and you (and others) are saying that government is the same as a thief.. We are NOT getting anywhere... and probably, it does NOT matter too much to the subject of this thread or the original point that was being made, which I believe was involving Mt. Gox taking BTC from customers.

Yes, I do have a role in government, and that role is to dismantle it or more accurately to allow it to dismantle itself as it is currently doing at an accelerated pace. Society needs governance, but that governance must comply with the values of the society itself, which in the West means consent of the governed. The American revolution was an attempt at governance with consent, but it was shortly hijacked (around 1787) when the constitutionalists nullified the Articles on Confederation. Clearly neither the Aritcles nor the Constitution were capable of embodying the ideals for which the war was fought.  Back then the technology to implement truly distributed governance was not available. It now is. Monopoly governance is not as Thomas Paine suggested a necessary evil. It is not necessary at all, at least not anymore.

[Walsoraj]

Jorge did you buy a bitcoin yet?

No, but I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.  

Do zero trade fees for a year. Then restrict fiat withdrawals (blame it on banks) and begin charging outrageously high fees. Finally, cash out and retire.

Easy money.  

[JayJuanGee]

Involuntary takings are theft regardless of who is doing the taking.

Or how.

Taxation.

Taxation and theft are of two different categories...

Also, I would NOT categorize taxation as an involuntary taking.... ... even though there are some difficulties in electing within which society (community) and set up that we want to live.  The role of government tends to be a complicated topic... and such topic has been especially inflammatory from time to time....

Oh yeah, and theft within the government can be quite complicated as well.... yet mostly different from the kinds of thefts going on in bitcoin circles.

We have a fundamental difference in outlook. It is a commonly believed lie that if the group of people have a certain cloak of legitimacy and do the taking ostensibly for the benefit of the victims and go by a certain "transparent" process that such involuntary takings are not in fact theft. All this means is that it is a successful theft, not something else. I will not budge on this. If I am imprisoned and I eat the prison cafeteria food to keep from starving, it does not mean I volunteer to be imprisoned. I do not consent.

I don't see any problem with agreeing to disagree.  It seems that i already addressed this in my other post..  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg5614843#msg5614843).

So it is likely that we would be repeating ourselves and NOT getting anywhere to pursue such a conversation. 

I understand that it can be difficult to make changes in law or society - especially, the larger the community.  Don't get me wrong, I do NOT appreciate having certain rule imposed upon me; however, I try to find ways in which I can accept and live in harmony without proclaiming that the government is some alien entity that is separated from my human interests.  Personally, if I were to pick one thing that irritates me the most about government is NOT the concept of taxes, but instead it is the fact that money has too much influenced government and those with a lot of money are NOT paying their fair share of taxes.  Accordingly, regular people have to pay more taxes b/c of the money corruption  that has infiltrated into the most recent government(s)... worse in the past 20 years or so.

[JorgeStolfi]

I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.   

i'll code the back end in C++

the server will handle 21million trades per second.

I expect that "block withdrawals" and "block deposits"  functions are well separated in the code.  Otherwise it is not interesting. 

[billyjoeallen]

To suggest that a complex theft is not a theft merely because of the complexities involved is laughable. It's like arguing that a Boeing 747 isn't an airplane.

[Walsoraj]

I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.   

i'll code the back end in C++

the server will handle 21million trades per second.

I expect that "block withdrawals" and "block deposits"  functions are well separated in the code.  Otherwise it is not interesting. 

Have adam code DDOS machines. You'll need those at some point, trust me.

[adamstgBit]

I am quite tempted to open a bitcoin exchange.   

i'll code the back end in C++

the server will handle 21million trades per second.

I expect that "block withdrawals" and "block deposits"  functions are well separated in the code.  Otherwise it is not interesting. 

yes i can even wire these functions up to big red buttons you can physically push and pull, for maximum lolz

the panic button would split all the bitcoins we collected to a high number of totally anonymous wallets no one can trace.

[JayJuanGee]

Also, I would NOT categorize taxation as an involuntary taking.... ... even though there are some difficulties in electing within which society (community) and set up that we want to live.  The role of government tends to be a complicated topic... and such topic has been especially inflammatory from time to time....

Try not paying and see what happens. Just because a gang outnumbers you does not make the robbery any the less.

I prefer NOT to get into drawn out discussion about the role of government, and/or the extent to which there is a consensual nature to being governed or being a part of a society. 

Nonetheless, I am suggesting that equating individualized theft (or being robbed by a corporation or being defrauded) with taxation will cause considerable oversimplification about the differing concepts and differing dynamics. 

Viewing taxation as theft (or as an involuntary taking) is bringing the wrong framework b/c questions about taxation are a lot more complicated than theft  or other categories of involuntary takings.  For example, you mention the size of the gang... and this seems to be fuzzy logic to view government as a gang.. .. as if you are being ganged up upon and that government is something apart from one's self... even though there remain tensions between community and self, theft is different.

It actually is the exact same thing. It's just that in the case of taxation the group doing the taken are much more powerful and at the same time believe (for the most part) that they are morally in the right (which they aren't in my opinion).

You as a citizen have a role in government, and you have a choice in where to live. 

Government is not Other people ganging up on you - even though frequently, it may seem as if an individual cannot do much to change the society in which s/he lives, but government is NOT the same as a thief. 

I have already made my point several times that a person asserting that the government is the same as a thief is failing to recognize complexity.. and chooses to simplify to the point of losing the point.. and if you keep repeating it over and over that government is the same it is the same, that does NOT prove any point.  Accordingly, there is NOT much use of continuing such a conversation in which I am saying that government is different from a thief.. and you (and others) are saying that government is the same as a thief.. We are NOT getting anywhere... and probably, it does NOT matter too much to the subject of this thread or the original point that was being made, which I believe was involving Mt. Gox taking BTC from customers.

Yes, I do have a role in government, and that role is to dismantle it or more accurately to allow it to dismantle itself as it is currently doing at an accelerated pace. Society needs governance, but that governance must comply with the values of the society itself, which in the West means consent of the governed. The American revolution was an attempt at governance with consent, but it was shortly hijacked (around 1787) when the constitutionalists nullified the Articles on Confederation. Clearly neither the Aritcles nor the Constitution were capable of embodying the ideals for which the war was fought.  Back then the technology to implement truly distributed governance was not available. It now is. Monopoly governance is not as Thomas Paine suggested a necessary evil. It is not necessary at all, at least not anymore.

I doubt that we are, in any time soon, going to achieve a world in which government is completely unnecessary.  That seems to be pie in the sky thinking.   It is possible that bitcoin can move us in a direction in which the role of government (and its money) is completely changed; however, in the short term, we are NOT going to be "saved" from government.


Surely, I have NO problem with guys having visions about ways in which we can improve society; however, some kind of cold turkey abolition of government does NOT seem to be ANY kind of meaningful or realistic solution.  There are too many vested interests and too many people would be hurt with such radical measures.

To suggest that a complex theft is not a theft merely because of the complexities involved is laughable. It's like arguing that a Boeing 747 isn't an airplane.

It appears that you have a passion to argue about this kind of a topic, and possibly accomplishing such by merely continuing to reassert your same argument over and over that government taxation is theft.  That is NOT a meaningful argument.

When I mention complexities, I am NOT wanting to get into this topic b/c there are a lot of governments - national, state and local, and government serves a wide array of functions - military, policing, regulatory, social benefits, economic.  Yes, theft may occur within government; however, when the topic of theft came up, we were referring to the actions of GOX.  Gox is NOT a government as far as I know.  Gox was NOT engaged in taxation... So to compare the thievery activities of GOX to taxation is taking us far afield from the original point(s) being made.

[billyjoeallen]

 

I understand that it can be difficult to make changes in law or society - especially, the larger the community.  Don't get me wrong, I do NOT appreciate having certain rule imposed upon me; however, I try to find ways in which I can accept and live in harmony without proclaiming that the government is some alien entity that is separated from my human interests.  Personally, if I were to pick one thing that irritates me the most about government is NOT the concept of taxes, but instead it is the fact that money has too much influenced government and those with a lot of money are NOT paying their fair share of taxes.  Accordingly, regular people have to pay more taxes b/c of the money corruption  that has infiltrated into the most recent government(s)... worse in the past 20 years or so.

I don't agree to disagree when the issue at hand is whether or not I am a slave. This isn't hyperbole. I can't leave the country without permission and even if I am allowed to leave, I still must file U.S. tax returns for ten years. I can't vote to change the system. There is no option on the ballot to leave the elected posts empty for the next term. Democracy is not consent of the governed anyway; it is consent of the majority or more accurately the plurality.

Slavery won't go away because it is immoral. It will go away because it is economically obsolete. There's just not much profit in it anymore and it is becoming less profitable by the day.

[JorgeStolfi]

Shrem was likely set up by the US Govt (harassment of sorts). 

Well, I read that FBI document with charges against him, and they seem rather serious.

If the charges were drug buy/sell/use one could say that they had nothing to do with his role in the bitcoin movement.  But the charges are about his failure to do his duty as the AML person in his exchange.  Hard to dissociate that from bitcoin. 

It is expected that his friends would defend and support him, but having him as a spokesman for bitcoin, taking part in bitcoin roundtables, etc. looks very bad from out here.

Besides, why would the USG want to harass him? For his role in bitcoin?  But why him and not other prominent bitcoiners?

[PoolMinor]

stressed out over bitcoin price fluctuations?

print this out and color it in.



it helps 

Thanks

[adamstgBit]

stressed out over bitcoin price fluctuations?

print this out and color it in.



it helps 

Thanks

sooooooo

 you feel better now don't you.

 

[JayJuanGee]

Shrem was likely set up by the US Govt (harassment of sorts). 

Well, I read that FBI document with charges against him, and they seem rather serious.

If the charges were drug buy/sell/use one could say that they had nothing to do with his role in the bitcoin movement.  But the charges are about his failure to do his duty as the AML person in his exchange.  Hard to dissociate that from bitcoin. 

It is expected that his friends would defend and support him, but having him as a spokesman for bitcoin, taking part in bitcoin roundtables, etc. looks very bad from out here.

Besides, why would the USG want to harass him? For his role in bitcoin?  But why him and not other prominent bitcoiners?

Charges does NOT a case make.  The government has to prove the charges, and if these are criminal the burden is beyond a reasonable doubt.  There are a lot of people who have been suppressed and oppressed by receiving criminal charges.  And, apparently, the evidence regarding Shrem came from his voluntary providing information b/c he was assisting the government to establish regulation...

I get the sense that he is a 24 year old that did NOT realize that he was getting in over his head, and the government was setting him up b/c of his role in bitcoin.  From what little I know about Shrem, I doubt that he had criminal intentions.

Let's say for example, that you are engaged in a bank money exchange and your customers are drug dealers.  You may or may NOT be involved in their drug dealing business... but it seems that the government is trying to target someone who did NOT have illegal intentions....

Have you heard about some of the recent FBI stings regarding local bitcoins in which FBI agents pose as customers for bitcoins, and they tell sellers on localbitcoins that they are going to use the bitcoins to buy drugs (or some other illegal activity).  Why the hell should I give a flying fuck for what purpose the buyer wants the bitcoins, I am just selling bitcoins.  Anyhow, it is a form of set up to bust people who are selling bitcoins.... people who may have no intent to do anything illegal; however, the fact that the buyer tells them what he is going to do, then the seller becomes an accomplice.  those are bullshit setups.


The govt may pick shrem b/c he seems to be an easy target in terms of resources at his disposal and ability to defend himself and he also seems to be a fairly honest kid that just speaks his mind... without realizing that he is being set up in some technicalities.

[PoolMinor]

stressed out over bitcoin price fluctuations?

print this out and color it in.



it helps 

Thanks

sooooooo

 you feel better now don't you.

 

Yes, but I cheated, I used MSPaint.   

[billyjoeallen]

Shrem was likely set up by the US Govt (harassment of sorts).  

Well, I read that FBI document with charges against him, and they seem rather serious.

If the charges were drug buy/sell/use one could say that they had nothing to do with his role in the bitcoin movement.  But the charges are about his failure to do his duty as the AML person in his exchange.  Hard to dissociate that from bitcoin.  

It is expected that his friends would defend and support him, but having him as a spokesman for bitcoin, taking part in bitcoin roundtables, etc. looks very bad from out here.

Besides, why would the USG want to harass him? For his role in bitcoin?  But why him and not other prominent bitcoiners?

Charges does NOT a case make.  The government has to prove the charges, and if these are criminal the burden is beyond a reasonable doubt.  There are a lot of people who have been suppressed and oppressed by receiving criminal charges.  And, apparently, the evidence regarding Shrem came from his voluntary providing information b/c he was assisting the government to establish regulation...

I get the sense that he is a 24 year old that did NOT realize that he was getting in over his head, and the government was setting him up b/c of his role in bitcoin.  From what little I know about Shrem, I doubt that he had criminal intentions.

Let's say for example, that you are engaged in a bank money exchange and your customers are drug dealers.  You may or may NOT be involved in their drug dealing business... but it seems that the government is trying to target someone who did NOT have illegal intentions....

Have you heard about some of the recent FBI stings regarding local bitcoins in which FBI agents pose as customers for bitcoins, and they tell sellers on localbitcoins that they are going to use the bitcoins to buy drugs (or some other illegal activity).  Why the hell should I give a flying fuck for what purpose the buyer wants the bitcoins, I am just selling bitcoins.  Anyhow, it is a form of set up to bust people who are selling bitcoins.... people who may have no intent to do anything illegal; however, the fact that the buyer tells them what he is going to do, then the seller becomes an accomplice.  those are bullshit setups.


The govt may pick shrem b/c he seems to be an easy target in terms of resources at his disposal and ability to defend himself and he also seems to be a fairly honest kid that just speaks his mind... without realizing that he is being set up in some technicalities.

Speaking of technicalities, we have a nice little cup and handle formation cooking on the 30 minute chart.

[JayJuanGee]

 

I understand that it can be difficult to make changes in law or society - especially, the larger the community.  Don't get me wrong, I do NOT appreciate having certain rule imposed upon me; however, I try to find ways in which I can accept and live in harmony without proclaiming that the government is some alien entity that is separated from my human interests.  Personally, if I were to pick one thing that irritates me the most about government is NOT the concept of taxes, but instead it is the fact that money has too much influenced government and those with a lot of money are NOT paying their fair share of taxes.  Accordingly, regular people have to pay more taxes b/c of the money corruption  that has infiltrated into the most recent government(s)... worse in the past 20 years or so.

I don't agree to disagree when the issue at hand is whether or not I am a slave. This isn't hyperbole. I can't leave the country without permission and even if I am allowed to leave, I still must file U.S. tax returns for ten years. I can't vote to change the system. There is no option on the ballot to leave the elected posts empty for the next term. Democracy is not consent of the governed anyway; it is consent of the majority or more accurately the plurality.

Slavery won't go away because it is immoral. It will go away because it is economically obsolete. There's just not much profit in it anymore and it is becoming less profitable by the day.

I am sad that you live in a state of mind that you feel that you are being forced.  Yes, I agree with the government in A LOT of ways; however, mentally, I recognize the fact that I live in a community of people.  The world is NOT just about me, and in this community of people, a variety of compromises have been made.  Some of the compromises are pure bullshit... Well, maybe a lot of them are pure bullshit that are in place to oppress people.  I recognize the law as a weapon of the rich to oppress the poor - however, it seems that my mentality is different from yours b/c I am NOT going to expend all of my energies bitching and moaning about how unfair it is and suggesting that the only solution is to throw out the baby and the bathwater by some kind of ousting of government.  That is too outrageous b/c there are a lot of people in the community, besides me.   

Personally, I believe that if there were ways to remove money influence in politics, and we were able to elect people to serve the interests of the people as a whole, rather than the rich, then we would move a long way towards a better society. 

If you and I sat down for a beer, I am sure that there would be a lot that we would agree upon, but I am NOT going to agree that the starting place is to shut down government (tomorrow or next week).  Change needs to be more incremental and focused, if such change is going to be meaningful and a product of society rather than a product of the will of only a few.

[JorgeStolfi]

Total trade volume for today (Sun Mar/09 00:00-23:59 UTC) on the exchanges that I monitor was ~269 kBTC.  That is 11% less than yesterday's, but almost 3 times the volume of last Sunday Mar/02.

Volume outside China fell 18% (from 30 to 25 kBTC).  Bitstamp (with 9.12 kBTC) was again above Bitfinex (8.29), and BTC-e (6.52) was still third.

Volume in China fell  across all exchanges, by 10% in total (from 271 to 244 kBTC).  OKCoin remains well ahead of Huobi (today 56% to 42% of the Chinese volume).

China's slice of the total volume increased slightly, from 90% to  91%.