Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[empowering]

"I am, as you are well aware, citizens, the man who wrote these words: Property is theft! I do not come to retract them, heaven forbid! I persist in regarding this provocative definition as the greatest truth of the century. I have no desire to insult your convictions either: all that I ask, is to say to you how I — partisan of the family and the household, and adversary of communism that I am — understand that the negation of property is necessary for the abolition of misery, for the emancipation of the proletariat. It is by its fruits that one must judge a doctrine: judge then my theory by my practice. When I say, Property is theft! I do not propose a principle; I do nothing but express one conclusion. You will understand the enormous difference presently. However, if the definition of property which I state is only the conclusion, or rather the general formula of the economic system, what is the principle of that system, what is its practice, and what are its forms?

My principle, which will appear astonishing to you, citizens, my principle is yours; it is property itself. I have no other symbol, no other principle than those of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen: Liberty, equality, security, property . Like the Declaration of Rights, I define liberty as the right to do anything that does not harm others . Again, like the Declaration of Rights, I define property, provisionally, as the right to dispose freely of one's income, the fruits of one's labor and industry. Here is the entirety of my system: liberty of conscience, liberty of the press, liberty of labor, free trade, liberty in education, free competition, free disposition of the fruits of labor and industry, liberty ad infinitum, absolute liberty, liberty for all and always. "

(Should need no introduction)

(This is confirmed     lol )

[JayJuanGee]

Please leave your politics and your religion in your church and your bunker, respectively and respectfully.

Politics will never be far from Bitcoin.

The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

Yep... politics are in lots of places, including bitcoin..

[deeplink]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

Rape is necessary for human romantic relationships, isn't it? I though it was common knowledge.

Whether the victims are chosen properly is a different issue, isn't is?

Those who can obtain consensual sex without rape can not say that other people do not need to resort to rape. If they say so, they don't really need sex as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature, therefore rape is a necessary part of romantic relationships.

Hahaaa, interesting comment. I think the extrapolation isn't proper but I'm confused and not in a position to argue. Any one comment on the extrapolation?

You are confused because the extrapolation is valid and you just noticed how upside down your worldview is.

Involuntary human interactions (taxation, rape) will not solve social problems, they will increase them.

[fonzie]

so wall observing became boring and we talk about... taxes???  

Finally JayJuanGees wet dreams became true.

[JayJuanGee]

it is sad how most Americans have no clue about what is really going around the world, and still think that USA is the greatest country in the world and the land of "freedom", when most of their follow citizen still struggles and cant get the basics of a free education and health care.

Free education? How do the teachers feed and house themselves?

The students don't have to pay all their lives for loans, their education comes from already paid taxes which goes to pay teachers and expenses of college... I for once paid annually 20€ for registration fee in college and another 40€ for my dorm room, then there is the student coupons (supported price from the government ) to use in restaurants.

If I pay my tax they better use it to make my life and the life of my children better, most EU and north African countries have this system, but in the US they instead spend tax money exporting "democracy" and "freedom" around the world, billions of dollars spent on war while millions of Americans struggle in poverty and losing the basic human rights, things that even central Africans are improving at.

You don't know squat about the 'poor' in America.

I grew up dirt-poor, as we say on the south.  My father was an uneducated, unskilled worker in a cotton mill, and my mother was a full-time mother to 7 kids.  We never went hungry or without clothes because my father was both frugal enough and industrious enough to make sure we always had what we needed - without ANY government assistance - even though plenty of that was available to those who would take it.

In America, there is always someone who will pay you to do useful work, and my father took advantage of that fact to supplement his income.  On the weekends, he would grab me and/or one of my brothers and we would go do house painting or general handyman work, yard work, or whatever we could to make a little money.  We also did plenty of hunting and fishing to supplement the food budget.

When I left high school, my family didn't have the money to send me to college.  I went to work in the same cotton mill where my father (and his father) had worked  and EARNED the money to send myself to college.  My siblings did exactly the same.  One sister is a veterinarian, one is a nurse, I'm an engineer, one brother owns a construction company now, another is a CS geek - well you get the picture...  All of us achieved what we have without the handouts you seem to believe are REQUIRED to escape 'poverty', and I never owed ANYBODY any student loans - because I went to college BEFORE government interference in the education market drove the prices through the roof.

The only people in America I have ever seen "struggling in poverty" were doing so because they chose to depend on the government to support them.

People like you would voluntarily make yourselves into livestock owned by your 'government'.  Well, have fun with that.

I agree that the US government spends what to much money on imperialistic endeavors, but that is another argument for another time...

My wife grew up dirt poor. She was the first in her family to go to college. She was very smart and not lazy in the least. However the only way she could afford to go to college was to take out student loans. She had to take out loans to get her first year of college paid for. But because of her grades she applied for scholarships and managed to have most of her remaining years of college paid for.

I met my wife while we were in college and we got married after we graduated and of course thats when her student loans come due. But because we went to college we managed to get pretty decent paying jobs and managed to pay off her student loan within a few years.

So it goes to show you that just because some Americans go into debt to get things they need such as an education or whatever that we are not all lazy asses that have the debt hanging over our heads the rest of our lives.

Both of the above posters deserve a pat on the back (well in the second case his wife). Both approaches are very admirable

I don't disagree with you. 


Yet, there are a lot of rags to riches stories that are going to involve a lot of variety of influential factors including whether government was a part of the equation may be a matter of degree.

[JayJuanGee]

When I was a kid, my mother could call the local doctor and he would COME TO OUR HOUSE and treat us (an unbelievable concept in America now), and he would charge us $10 for that service.  Everyone I knew was about as poor as we were, but I cannot once remember hearing someone say "Oh my God, what will we do about the medical bills?".  The mess that the American health care system is in now is another creation of our government - but again, that is a long argument that exceeds greatly the bounds of this thread.

The mess that is the American education system that mmitech is decrying is also the fault of the government.

This is worth a read http://mises.org/daily/1425

Yes.  It seems that over the years, the government has allowed too much privatization (and money making) of the public good which is various aspects of the education infrastructure.

[fonzie]

[adamstgBit]

foniz is high again

this one is trippy as fuck Metric - Raw Sugar

[JayJuanGee]

interesting reading, I don't think our schools are bad to be honest, I agree that private schools can "offer" more than what public schools offer, but this doesn't mean that public schools have to be shitty...

Indeed. Mine was actually pretty good compared to many. The question really is whether it necessary for the government to fund them (given the way they obtain those funds) and the quality of education obtained vs that money spent elsewhere (or, conversely, whether a similar level of education can be obtained by spending/taking less money).

However, many people live in areas with bad schools. And they can't go private because the government is confiscating too much of their income and they can't move to a better catchment area because the government is confiscating too much of their income.

You are attempting to simplify and to blame the government... the problem is much more complicated, and the government is the people... so let's blame the people for allowing the education infrastructure to evolve into some baloney of complication.  The solution involves putting more of the public back into education and allowing it to serve all aspects of society rather than merely rich and merely the various forms of profit making and divide and conquer that is allowed by the various forms of complicated funding.

[JayJuanGee]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

Rape is necessary for human romantic relationships, isn't it? I though it was common knowledge.

Whether the victims are chosen properly is a different issue, isn't is?

Those who can obtain consensual sex without rape can not say that other people do not need to resort to rape. If they say so, they don't really need sex as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature, therefore rape is a necessary part of romantic relationships.

Another ridiculous analogy.. tax is not the same as rape, and it is NOT even close to the same... so stop being inflammatory and devolving into misleading analogies.

[Torque]

Yes, it continues to amaze me how much brainpower is wasted on the internet trying to convince a SINGLE person to change their viewpoint on a topic, meanwhile absolutely nothing changes or gets changed in the real world for the hundreds of thousands of other people....    

[Bittings]

Hey let's change subject to something was all can agree on... how about religion?

[xyzzy099]

your suggestion that we do NOT need government seems to be an oversimplification of social structures.

I made no such suggestion.

Additionally, you seem to imply <blah blah blah>

I did not imply anything of the kind.  I simply pointed out that government assistance is not strictly necessary, and for many of us not desirable.

Wealth disparity in this country has devolved to tragic lows b/c of lack of strength of government and lack of ability  or willingness to keep some of the wealthy decision makers and movers in their place.. whether it is job creation or export of jobs or other ways that they leach off of the public infrastructure to run away with and to steal wealth from the public sphere... that has worsened in the last 30 years or so.... and little by little eroded the whole social fabric of the country... with stupid ass ideas that the only value is rugged individualism and lack of government as the solution to all social ills...

I'm a little sick of hearing about this "wealth disparity/inequality".  If the rich get 10% richer while those of us who are not rich get only 4% richer, I am ok with that - especially since "the rich" usually means people who are actually starting/growing companies and making life better for others (intentionally or otherwise), while risking their own wealth.

Are you really poorer now than you were 20 years ago?  Of all the poor souls I grew up with, very few could answer "yes" to that - and the ones that can are usually going to be victims of other problems created by the government, like the current health care system.

[JayJuanGee]

realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  

I disagree. People in general realize education is important and will go out of their way to obtain it for their children (There is historical evidence for this by the way). And being discerning consumers and not the money firehose that is the government, they will ensure they obtain value for money.

If you want to argue that there are some (very) few people who would lose out and would benefit from a safety net, I'll give you that.

I am NOT opposed to people being able to pursue more with their money and to buy more - but basic education should be available to all, and probably at all stages in life...

However, the devil is in the details concerning the extent to which various aspects of education is basic and how much money should be spent to make it available.. public libraries contribute in these regards, too (regarding the creation of possibilities for lifelong learning for those willing to use such resources).

[adamstgBit]

Hey let's change subject to something was all can agree on... how about religion?

everyone here is an existentialist+determinist, right?

ahahahaha

[JorgeStolfi]

When I was a kid, my mother could call the local doctor and he would COME TO OUR HOUSE and treat us (an unbelievable concept in America now), and he would charge us $10 for that service.  Everyone I knew was about as poor as we were, but I cannot once remember hearing someone say "Oh my God, what will we do about the medical bills?".  The mess that the American health care system is in now is another creation of our government - but again, that is a long argument that exceeds greatly the bounds of this thread.

Indeed, it was the creation of a government who traditionally considered health care not to be its concern, and therefore left it entirely to private enterprise.  As it always happens, left to its "self-regulation"  the health care market degenerated into an oligopoly, whose only concern is to maximize the revenue of their owners; who that maintains their dominance of the market by buying out the government. 

To keep the post within the topic: that is the way that the bitcoin mining network is going now.

By the way, I hope you are aware that the Government of the Distributed Libertopian Republic of Bitcoin, aka the Bitcoin Network, is currently supported entirely by the printing of new money, to the tune of ~4000 BTC/day; which means 10%/year inflation rate (in the strict sense).  As with any inflation tax, this one is taken from all those who own bitcoins.

And, by the way, it was with  those fiat bitcoins that KnC bought their Platinum membership in The Shrem Karpelès & Friends Foundation.  Can you see the pattern forming?

[JayJuanGee]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

just because we haven't figured out how to organize human communities in such a way that they build roads, hospitals, schools, support to those who need it. ( modern society ) without the need for a central authority, doesn't mean it is impossible.

the bitcoin model could hold the key, replace the central authority with some kind of AI that everyone gets a say how it thinks and acts? tax may still be the way, but the at least the rules would serve the will of the majority by designs.

crazy tough question...

Agreed.. there is some ongoing evolution that is likely going to be facilitated by bitcoin in various ways... or at least there is potential for such evolution of the public space in a variety of ways through bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  

I disagree. People in general realize education is important and will go out of their way to obtain it for their children (There is historical evidence for this by the way). And being discerning consumers and not the money firehose that is the government, they will ensure they obtain value for money.

In this case, I agree with JayJuanGee. The free market would never build educational institutions that resemble anything the government builds.

We know this, because the government has to use the threat of fines and jail both to force parents to send their children to those institutions and also to pay the taxes that fund them.

Our best guess is that education in a free market would probably be the opposite of government-provided education.

Hehehehehehe... a backhanded compliment.... 


Regarding your best guess about what education would look like in a free market, you are correct, you seem to be merely guessing b/c you have NOT really thought any of this through.  You merely believe that there is too much government involvement in education and that government involvement is coerced and it is screwing over people and that the solution would be to remove government and to privatize... but you have NOT real vision about what that would be.

Also, your comment seems to completely blame the various deficiencies in the current  educational system on government involvement while failing to recognize that the current system is composed of a combination of private and governmental forces... and likely you are failing to see that it is more likely that the public educational system has already been too much taken over by too many private sector profiteering forces that are causing a lot of this ruckus and dysfunctional aspects in various education infrastructure circles.

[justusranvier]

Indeed, it was the creation of a government who traditionally considered health care not to be its concern, and therefore left it entirely to private enterprise.  As it always happens, left to its "self-regulation"  the health care market degenerated into an oligopoly, whose only concern is to maximize the revenue of their owners; who that maintains their dominance of the market by buying out the government.

This is a great example of why belief government is just as faith-based as any other religion you could name.

Literally no part of the myth above is true.

http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html

[JayJuanGee]

I was assuming sane objectives

That's a dangerous assumption to make, because it reinforces the basic lie about the state.

The state pretends to have the same goals and motives as the people it subjugates, but that's just an efficient illusion, or camouflage.

The state is what the people make it out to be.  There are a lot of forms of government and a lot of government localities.  Many times we people have allowed too many money influences in government to pervert our government and to pervert our concepts of government and to allow various forms of robbery of the rich from the poor (reverse robin hood) to be taking place through government b/c we have lost sight (as individuals and as a community) concerning what we would like government to achieve, about the roles of government and probably most importantly how to attempt to get from point A to point B... even if we can get some consensus about wanting to get to point B.