Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[TheJuice]

Where we heading these days? Up?

[ImI]

Where we heading these days? Up?

Backwards.

Btw LOVE that avatar.

[podyx]

Where we heading these days? Up?

yes sir!

[justusranvier]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

Rape is necessary for human romantic relationships, isn't it? I though it was common knowledge.

Whether the victims are chosen properly is a different issue, isn't is?

Those who can obtain consensual sex without rape can not say that other people do not need to resort to rape. If they say so, they don't really need sex as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature, therefore rape is a necessary part of romantic relationships.

[JayJuanGee]

it is sad how most Americans have no clue about what is really going around the world, and still think that USA is the greatest country in the world and the land of "freedom", when most of their follow citizen still struggles and cant get the basics of a free education and health care.

Free education? How do the teachers feed and house themselves?

The students don't have to pay all their lives for loans, their education comes from already paid taxes which goes to pay teachers and expenses of college... I for once paid annually 20€ for registration fee in college and another 40€ for my dorm room, then there is the student coupons (supported price from the government ) to use in restaurants.

If I pay my tax they better use it to make my life and the life of my children better, most EU and north African countries have this system, but in the US they instead spend tax money exporting "democracy" and "freedom" around the world, billions of dollars spent on war while millions of Americans struggle in poverty and losing the basic human rights, things that even central Africans are improving at.

So not free. Good. Let's actually acknowledge those people who are going out there and working day after day to pay for this stuff and realize that this stuff doesn't just fall from the sky.

Education is one of those public goods that we should value, and realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  Surely in the current system, there seems be a large array of institutions and infrastructure, including profit making ones, which may or may NOT contribute to the public goods.

However since this is a public good, the people should be deciding their allocation priorities - including the elections and appointments of responsible persons to oversee such various allocation priorities.

[Richy_T]

realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  

I disagree. People in general realize education is important and will go out of their way to obtain it for their children (There is historical evidence for this by the way). And being discerning consumers and not the money firehose that is the government, they will ensure they obtain value for money.

If you want to argue that there are some (very) few people who would lose out and would benefit from a safety net, I'll give you that.

[Threebits]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

Rape is necessary for human romantic relationships, isn't it? I though it was common knowledge.

Whether the victims are chosen properly is a different issue, isn't is?

Those who can obtain consensual sex without rape can not say that other people do not need to resort to rape. If they say so, they don't really need sex as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature, therefore rape is a necessary part of romantic relationships.

Hahaaa, interesting comment. I think the extrapolation isn't proper but I'm confused and not in a position to argue. Any one comment on the extrapolation?

[Richy_T]

Hahaaa, interesting comment. I think the extrapolation isn't proper but I'm confused and not in a position to argue. Any one comment on the extrapolation?

You'd get the most from it if you pondered on it by yourself for a while.

[adamstgBit]

Tax system is necessary for human community, isn't it? I thought it was common knowledge.

Whether taxes are spent properly is a different issue, isn't it?

Those who survived without tax can not say other people do not need tax support. If they say so, they don't really need bitcoin as well, as they don't need community.

Humans are social, by nature. Bitcoin will have to go well with tax. But, it does not necessarily go well with fiat!

just because we haven't figured out how to organize human communities in such a way that they build roads, hospitals, schools, support to those who need it. ( modern society ) without the need for a central authority, doesn't mean it is impossible.

the bitcoin model could hold the key, replace the central authority with some kind of AI that everyone gets a say how it thinks and acts? tax may still be the way, but the at least the rules would serve the will of the majority by designs.

crazy tough question...

[justusranvier]

realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  

I disagree. People in general realize education is important and will go out of their way to obtain it for their children (There is historical evidence for this by the way). And being discerning consumers and not the money firehose that is the government, they will ensure they obtain value for money.

In this case, I agree with JayJuanGee. The free market would never build educational institutions that resemble anything the government builds.

We know this, because the government has to use the threat of fines and jail both to force parents to send their children to those institutions and also to pay the taxes that fund them.

Our best guess is that education in a free market would probably be the opposite of government-provided education.

[JayJuanGee]

it is sad how most Americans have no clue about what is really going around the world, and still think that USA is the greatest country in the world and the land of "freedom", when most of their follow citizen still struggles and cant get the basics of a free education and health care.

Free education? How do the teachers feed and house themselves?

The students don't have to pay all their lives for loans, their education comes from already paid taxes which goes to pay teachers and expenses of college... I for once paid annually 20€ for registration fee in college and another 40€ for my dorm room, then there is the student coupons (supported price from the government ) to use in restaurants.

If I pay my tax they better use it to make my life and the life of my children better, most EU and north African countries have this system, but in the US they instead spend tax money exporting "democracy" and "freedom" around the world, billions of dollars spent on war while millions of Americans struggle in poverty and losing the basic human rights, things that even central Africans are improving at.

You don't know squat about the 'poor' in America.

I grew up dirt-poor, as we say on the south.  My father was an uneducated, unskilled worker in a cotton mill, and my mother was a full-time mother to 7 kids.  We never went hungry or without clothes because my father was both frugal enough and industrious enough to make sure we always had what we needed - without ANY government assistance - even though plenty of that was available to those who would take it.

In America, there is always someone who will pay you to do useful work, and my father took advantage of that fact to supplement his income.  On the weekends, he would grab me and/or one of my brothers and we would go do house painting or general handyman work, yard work, or whatever we could to make a little money.  We also did plenty of hunting and fishing to supplement the food budget.

When I left high school, my family didn't have the money to send me to college.  I went to work in the same cotton mill where my father (and his father) had worked  and EARNED the money to send myself to college.  My siblings did exactly the same.  One sister is a veterinarian, one is a nurse, I'm an engineer, one brother owns a construction company now, another is a CS geek - well you get the picture...  All of us achieved what we have without the handouts you seem to believe are REQUIRED to escape 'poverty', and I never owed ANYBODY any student loans - because I went to college BEFORE government interference in the education market drove the prices through the roof.

The only people in America I have ever seen "struggling in poverty" were doing so because they chose to depend on the government to support them.

People like you would voluntarily make yourselves into livestock owned by your 'government'.  Well, have fun with that.

I agree that the US government spends what to much money on imperialistic endeavors, but that is another argument for another time...

There is NOTHING wrong with working hard to get ahead, and it is laudable in many ways.  However, your suggestion that we do NOT need government seems to be an oversimplification of social structures. 

Additionally, you seem to imply that various government assistance had made people too lazy and unwiling to work and those bad incentives are responsible for the devolving infrastructure in America, and I think that you are personally missing the big picture manipulation that goes on by a lot of wealthy people to undermine government and to undermine various governmental services in order that poor people do NOT benefit and that they can run away with more of the pie (or at least prevent regular people from getting any of it).

Wealth disparity in this country has devolved to tragic lows b/c of lack of strength of government and lack of ability  or willingness to keep some of the wealthy decision makers and movers in their place.. whether it is job creation or export of jobs or other ways that they leach off of the public infrastructure to run away with and to steal wealth from the public sphere... that has worsened in the last 30 years or so.... and little by little eroded the whole social fabric of the country... with stupid ass ideas that the only value is rugged individualism and lack of government as the solution to all social ills...

[JayJuanGee]

it is sad how most Americans have no clue about what is really going around the world, and still think that USA is the greatest country in the world and the land of "freedom", when most of their follow citizen still struggles and cant get the basics of a free education and health care.

Free education? How do the teachers feed and house themselves?

The students don't have to pay all their lives for loans, their education comes from already paid taxes which goes to pay teachers and expenses of college... I for once paid annually 20€ for registration fee in college and another 40€ for my dorm room, then there is the student coupons (supported price from the government ) to use in restaurants.

If I pay my tax they better use it to make my life and the life of my children better, most EU and north African countries have this system, but in the US they instead spend tax money exporting "democracy" and "freedom" around the world, billions of dollars spent on war while millions of Americans struggle in poverty and losing the basic human rights, things that even central Africans are improving at.

So not free. Good. Let's actually acknowledge those people who are going out there and working day after day to pay for this stuff and realize that this stuff doesn't just fall from the sky.

well, we all pay taxes, same like you do in the US but we don't have to additionally take loans and be in debt all our lives to pay back what we should be entitled to in the first place, we all have the same equal chance for education here... it is just sad to see talented people in the US having to escape college because they cant afford it, this is all what I am saying.

I pay taxes for one reason only: the gov has more guns than I do. It's not legit because it's involuntary. If anyone else forced you to give them money, it would be called what it is. ROBBERY!

Yes we have had fairly long postings about this topic previously regarding your (and others) all too simplified view that the government is robbing the people... which is just a bunch of baloney simplification to suggest that getting rid of the government is the solution to all societal ills.. and probably NOT even worth getting into any deeper discussion of such extremist ideas that seem to have little or NO plan about how to get to the supposed ideal state of NO government and little or NO outline regarding what society will look like once we arrive at such a government -less state, if we were to arrive in some meaningful state of supposed survival of the fittest?

[Richy_T]

realize that the free market does NOT accomplish the objectives the same as the public creation of various education institutions and infrastructure.  

I disagree. People in general realize education is important and will go out of their way to obtain it for their children (There is historical evidence for this by the way). And being discerning consumers and not the money firehose that is the government, they will ensure they obtain value for money.

In this case, I agree with JayJuanGee. The free market would never build educational institutions that resemble anything the government builds.

We know this, because the government has to use the threat of fines and jail both to force parents to send their children to those institutions and also to pay the taxes that fund them.

Our best guess is that education in a free market would probably be the opposite of government-provided education.

I was assuming sane objectives

[Adrian-x]

tax is a given, just how it's collected and defined is what people argue over.

the markup or profit taken from any service or consumer good is a tax.
jurisdictional taxes should be viable too, its just problematic at the moment because we (the people - not global corporates) are not free to move in the physical world to a jurisdiction with out tax, but now that money works in a trust free virtual environment things may change.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[_javi_]

so wall observing became boring and we talk about... taxes??? 

[justusranvier]

I was assuming sane objectives

That's a dangerous assumption to make, because it reinforces the basic lie about the state.

The state pretends to have the same goals and motives as the people it subjugates, but that's just an efficient illusion, or camouflage.

[hyphymikey]

So... How bout them bitcoins?

[JayJuanGee]

it is sad how most Americans have no clue about what is really going around the world, and still think that USA is the greatest country in the world and the land of "freedom", when most of their follow citizen still struggles and cant get the basics of a free education and health care.

Free education? How do the teachers feed and house themselves?

The students don't have to pay all their lives for loans, their education comes from already paid taxes which goes to pay teachers and expenses of college... I for once paid annually 20€ for registration fee in college and another 40€ for my dorm room, then there is the student coupons (supported price from the government ) to use in restaurants.

If I pay my tax they better use it to make my life and the life of my children better, most EU and north African countries have this system, but in the US they instead spend tax money exporting "democracy" and "freedom" around the world, billions of dollars spent on war while millions of Americans struggle in poverty and losing the basic human rights, things that even central Africans are improving at.

You don't know squat about the 'poor' in America.

I grew up dirt-poor, as we say on the south.  My father was an uneducated, unskilled worker in a cotton mill, and my mother was a full-time mother to 7 kids.  We never went hungry or without clothes because my father was both frugal enough and industrious enough to make sure we always had what we needed - without ANY government assistance - even though plenty of that was available to those who would take it.

In America, there is always someone who will pay you to do useful work, and my father took advantage of that fact to supplement his income.  On the weekends, he would grab me and/or one of my brothers and we would go do house painting or general handyman work, yard work, or whatever we could to make a little money.  We also did plenty of hunting and fishing to supplement the food budget.

When I left high school, my family didn't have the money to send me to college.  I went to work in the same cotton mill where my father (and his father) had worked  and EARNED the money to send myself to college.  My siblings did exactly the same.  One sister is a veterinarian, one is a nurse, I'm an engineer, one brother owns a construction company now, another is a CS geek - well you get the picture...  All of us achieved what we have without the handouts you seem to believe are REQUIRED to escape 'poverty', and I never owed ANYBODY any student loans - because I went to college BEFORE government interference in the education market drove the prices through the roof.

The only people in America I have ever seen "struggling in poverty" were doing so because they chose to depend on the government to support them.

People like you would voluntarily make yourselves into livestock owned by your 'government'.  Well, have fun with that.

I agree that the US government spends what to much money on imperialistic endeavors, but that is another argument for another time...

My wife grew up dirt poor. She was the first in her family to go to college. She was very smart and not lazy in the least. However the only way she could afford to go to college was to take out student loans. She had to take out loans to get her first year of college paid for. But because of her grades she applied for scholarships and managed to have most of her remaining years of college paid for.

I met my wife while we were in college and we got married after we graduated and of course thats when her student loans come due. But because we went to college we managed to get pretty decent paying jobs and managed to pay off her student loan within a few years.

So it goes to show you that just because some Americans go into debt to get things they need such as an education or whatever that we are not all lazy asses that have the debt hanging over our heads the rest of our lives.

Student loans are most-likely government subsidized a lot of ways.  There are a lot of ways in which the poor can engage in various forms of hard work the profit from government provided infrastructure without turning into leaches, which seems to be implied by the earlier comment by xyzzy099, in which s/he is suggesting that the only legit way to work your way out of poverty is to work your ass off without any government assistance.. or some other nonsense like that.  There are a lot of ways that we would NOT have various forms of infrastructure, if it were NOT for various governmental investments (including the roads) and possibly the internet... though much of these investments are mixed and the government's involvement in things such as policing and fire protection can sometimes be subtle.

[adamstgBit]

Metric - Combat Baby