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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26407487 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
bambou
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January 31, 2014, 08:32:25 PM
 #82061

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley
JorgeStolfi
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January 31, 2014, 08:34:14 PM
 #82062

Here is my prediction for the coming month:



The plot shows the Bitstamp prices from Nov/2013 to Jan/2014 (purple) and estimated lower and upper bounds for Feb/2014 (green).  I claim that, in any 1-hour interval in the coming month, the Bitstamp price will be within the two green lines above, with 95% probability.

For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.

(Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the entire price plot will stay in that region for the whole month with 95% probability.)

This prediction is based on the simple "log Brownian" model that I described a while ago.  Namely, it assumes that the price change from one 1-hour interval to the next, in log scale, is a normal random variable that is independent of the previous history. 

More precisely let P(i) be the weighted mean transaction price in the 1-hourinterval number i.  Let Z(i) be log_10(P(i)). The model assumes that

  Z(i+1) = Z(i) + C*RAND(i)

where the factors RAND(i) are independent random variabls with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.  Therefore, for any n > 0,

  Z(i+n) = Z(i) + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n)

where factors RAND(i,n) are again random (but not independent) variables with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.

Analysis of the Bitstamp prices from Sep/2013 to Jan/2014 yields 0.00964 as the best fit for the parameter C.

Since 95% of the probability of the Gaussian distribution is within 2 deviations of the mean, the model implies that, n steps in the future,
the value Z(i+n) will be within the values

  Zmin(i,n) = Z(i) - 2*C*sqrt(n) and
  Zmax(i,n) = Z(i) + 2*C*sqrt(n)

with 95% probability, where Z(i) is the current (last known) price.  The green lines are these two bounds, converted back to linear scale (Pmin(i,n) = 10**Zmin(i,n), etc.)

More specifically, according to the model, at any specific 1-hour interval i+n in the future, the log price Z(i+n) will be

   below Zmin(i,n) with 2.5% probability;
   between Zmin(i,n) and the current price Z(i) with 47.5% probability;
   between the current price Z(i) and Zmax(i,n) with 47.5% probability;
   above Zmax(i,n) with 2.5% probability.

Note that, by this model, the future prices P(i+n) may be on either side of the current price (red line) with equal probability, even though the inverse log mapping yields a much wider range above than below.
 
Of course this model is quite rudimentary and basically useless for traders.  There may be more sophisticated models, but I doubt that they can yield better predictions. 

(The Brownian model is visibly inadequate for small n, since the log price increments from one interval to the next do not have a Gaussian distribution.  As a consequence, the 2*sigma interval Zmin(i,n) to Zmax(i,n) contains somewhat less than 95% of the probability.  However, by the Law of Large Numbers the distribution becomes almost Gaussian after a few hours. )

(before people ask: no, a model with a linear "historical trend" term Z(i+n) = Z(i) + T*n + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n) does not seem appropriate, and its predictions for the next month would not be significantly different.)
bambou
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January 31, 2014, 08:39:52 PM
Last edit: January 31, 2014, 08:50:30 PM by bambou
 #82063

@JorgeStolfi pretty impressive piece of work there. i think you made quite a point altough a forecast between $300 - 2200 by feb/22 is quite reasonable and easy to apprehend.. but +1 for the demonstration Smiley
adamstgBit
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January 31, 2014, 08:49:31 PM
 #82064

had some fun with charts.

 Tongue

I want expancive coins.

unlikely to happen...

if the main triangle breaks up "adam's cheapness indicator" will actually drop toward cheap coins as the  price moves up!
and if the triangle breaks down,  "adam's cheapness indicator" will drop with price
no matter what way you look at it, cheap coins ahead!   Cool
FierceRadish
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January 31, 2014, 08:57:16 PM
 #82065



For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.



That's a well-thought out argument, but this is a pretty wide price bracket. Plus, people here seem to demand either confirmed bull or confirmed bear. This kind of scope will fry minds Wink
cbeast
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January 31, 2014, 08:58:36 PM
 #82066

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley
Your comment was very helpful to me. I've been constipated for days but was able to use your comment to dislodge the obstruction.  Here, I washed off your comment so you can have it back. Thank you.
flynn
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January 31, 2014, 09:02:38 PM
 #82067

Here is my prediction for the coming month:

It was my understanding that Black–Scholes was the commonly used model ?
runam0k
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January 31, 2014, 09:03:19 PM
 #82068

had some fun with charts.

 Tongue

I want expancive coins.
Are they like colored coins? Or something new?
notme
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January 31, 2014, 09:03:46 PM
 #82069

Here is my prediction for the coming month:



The plot shows the Bitstamp prices from Nov/2013 to Jan/2014 (purple) and estimated lower and upper bounds for Feb/2014 (green).  I claim that, in any 1-hour interval in the coming month, the Bitstamp price will be within the two green lines above, with 95% probability.

For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.

(Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the entire price plot will stay in that region for the whole month with 95% probability.)

This prediction is based on the simple "log Brownian" model that I described a while ago.  Namely, it assumes that the price change from one 1-hour interval to the next, in log scale, is a normal random variable that is independent of the previous history.  

More precisely let P(i) be the weighted mean transaction price in the 1-hourinterval number i.  Let Z(i) be log_10(P(i)). The model assumes that

  Z(i+1) = Z(i) + C*RAND(i)

where the factors RAND(i) are independent random variabls with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.  Therefore, for any n > 0,

  Z(i+n) = Z(i) + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n)

where factors RAND(i,n) are again random (but not independent) variables with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.

Analysis of the Bitstamp prices from Sep/2013 to Jan/2014 yields 0.00964 as the best fit for the parameter C.

Since 95% of the probability of the Gaussian distribution is within 2 deviations of the mean, the model implies that, n steps in the future,
the value Z(i+n) will be within the values

  Zmin(i,n) = Z(i) - 2*C*sqrt(n) and
  Zmax(i,n) = Z(i) + 2*C*sqrt(n)

with 95% probability, where Z(i) is the current (last known) price.  The green lines are these two bounds, converted back to linear scale (Pmin(i,n) = 10**Zmin(i,n), etc.)

More specifically, according to the model, at any specific 1-hour interval i+n in the future, the log price Z(i+n) will be

   below Zmin(i,n) with 2.5% probability;
   between Zmin(i,n) and the current price Z(i) with 47.5% probability;
   between the current price Z(i) and Zmax(i,n) with 47.5% probability;
   above Zmax(i,n) with 2.5% probability.

Note that, by this model, the future prices P(i+n) may be on either side of the current price (red line) with equal probability, even though the inverse log mapping yields a much wider range above than below.
 
Of course this model is quite rudimentary and basically useless for traders.  There may be more sophisticated models, but I doubt that they can yield better predictions.  

(The Brownian model is visibly inadequate for small n, since the log price increments from one interval to the next do not have a Gaussian distribution.  As a consequence, the 2*sigma interval Zmin(i,n) to Zmax(i,n) contains somewhat less than 95% of the probability.  However, by the Law of Large Numbers the distribution becomes almost Gaussian after a few hours. )

(before people ask: no, a model with a linear "historical trend" term Z(i+n) = Z(i) + T*n + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n) does not seem appropriate, and its predictions for the next month would not be significantly different.)


As the work of Mandelbrot pretty definitively shows[1], you should nearly always include a fat tail on both sides of your distribution.  You can still skew it if you like, but odds are your model will be vastly wrong at some point if you don't have a fat tail on the downside risk.  Tell me, at which point does risk reach 0?

Your methodology is pretty much what has been taught the last 50 years in finance, but since 2008, Mandelbrot's critique and improved models have gotten some attention.  As you can clearly see by being involved with Bitcoin, people are cautions when their assets are involved.  Sometimes this causes clinging to outdated dogma, but you have to fit the model to the data, not the data to the model.

1. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=mandelbrot+markets
windjc
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January 31, 2014, 09:04:59 PM
 #82070

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley

You sound jealous.
KFR
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January 31, 2014, 09:13:15 PM
 #82071

Here is my prediction for the coming month:



The plot shows the Bitstamp prices from Nov/2013 to Jan/2014 (purple) and estimated lower and upper bounds for Feb/2014 (green).  I claim that, in any 1-hour interval in the coming month, the Bitstamp price will be within the two green lines above, with 95% probability.

For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.

(Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the entire price plot will stay in that region for the whole month with 95% probability.)

This prediction is based on the simple "log Brownian" model that I described a while ago.  Namely, it assumes that the price change from one 1-hour interval to the next, in log scale, is a normal random variable that is independent of the previous history. 

More precisely let P(i) be the weighted mean transaction price in the 1-hourinterval number i.  Let Z(i) be log_10(P(i)). The model assumes that

  Z(i+1) = Z(i) + C*RAND(i)

where the factors RAND(i) are independent random variabls with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.  Therefore, for any n > 0,

  Z(i+n) = Z(i) + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n)

where factors RAND(i,n) are again random (but not independent) variables with zero mean, unit deviation, and Gaussian distribution.

Analysis of the Bitstamp prices from Sep/2013 to Jan/2014 yields 0.00964 as the best fit for the parameter C.

Since 95% of the probability of the Gaussian distribution is within 2 deviations of the mean, the model implies that, n steps in the future,
the value Z(i+n) will be within the values

  Zmin(i,n) = Z(i) - 2*C*sqrt(n) and
  Zmax(i,n) = Z(i) + 2*C*sqrt(n)

with 95% probability, where Z(i) is the current (last known) price.  The green lines are these two bounds, converted back to linear scale (Pmin(i,n) = 10**Zmin(i,n), etc.)

More specifically, according to the model, at any specific 1-hour interval i+n in the future, the log price Z(i+n) will be

   below Zmin(i,n) with 2.5% probability;
   between Zmin(i,n) and the current price Z(i) with 47.5% probability;
   between the current price Z(i) and Zmax(i,n) with 47.5% probability;
   above Zmax(i,n) with 2.5% probability.

Note that, by this model, the future prices P(i+n) may be on either side of the current price (red line) with equal probability, even though the inverse log mapping yields a much wider range above than below.
 
Of course this model is quite rudimentary and basically useless for traders.  There may be more sophisticated models, but I doubt that they can yield better predictions. 

(The Brownian model is visibly inadequate for small n, since the log price increments from one interval to the next do not have a Gaussian distribution.  As a consequence, the 2*sigma interval Zmin(i,n) to Zmax(i,n) contains somewhat less than 95% of the probability.  However, by the Law of Large Numbers the distribution becomes almost Gaussian after a few hours. )

(before people ask: no, a model with a linear "historical trend" term Z(i+n) = Z(i) + T*n + C*sqrt(n)*RAND(i,n) does not seem appropriate, and its predictions for the next month would not be significantly different.)


Nice work.  Thanks for sharing your method. Smiley
bambou
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January 31, 2014, 09:16:19 PM
 #82072

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley

You sound jealous.

you got me Cheesy
ampere9765
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January 31, 2014, 09:21:04 PM
 #82073

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley

You sound jealous.
i sure am. but there is some cause for resentment when, all other things equal, they wouldnt have 1% of BTC if they werent simply born with silver spoons in hand. clearly many smaller holders got in long before them, but have far fewer coins not by virtue of foresight or skill, but by virtue of birth. in that sense, i have far less respect for the twins than i do for many of the smaller fish around since 2010.
TooDumbForBitcoin
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January 31, 2014, 09:36:23 PM
 #82074

Quote
For example, I claim that on Feb/22 the price will be between 300 USD and 2200 USD with 95% probability.


I claim that on Feb 22 the price will be:

between $200 and $2300 with 96% probability.
between $100 and $2400 with 97% probabliity.
between $50 and $2500 with 98% probability.
between $0 and $2600 with 99% proability.
more than Dogecoin with 100% probability.

canth
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January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
 #82075

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley

You sound jealous.
i sure am. but there is some cause for resentment when, all other things equal, they wouldnt have 1% of BTC if they werent simply born with silver spoons in hand. clearly many smaller holders got in long before them, but have far fewer coins not by virtue of foresight or skill, but by virtue of birth. in that sense, i have far less respect for the twins than i do for many of the smaller fish around since 2010.

There are many with far more wealth than the Winklevii with zero bitcoin holdings. Foresight, skill and/or luck certainly have something to do with their choice of holdings. If it was purely about money, then the 1% would have a much larger share of BTC in the market.
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January 31, 2014, 09:37:45 PM
 #82076

i sure am. but there is some cause for resentment when, all other things equal, they wouldnt have 1% of BTC if they werent simply born with silver spoons in hand. clearly many smaller holders got in long before them, but have far fewer coins not by virtue of foresight or skill, but by virtue of birth. in that sense, i have far less respect for the twins than i do for many of the smaller fish around since 2010.

Life ain't fair. No point getting bent out of shape about it.
ampere9765
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January 31, 2014, 09:44:04 PM
 #82077

i sure am. but there is some cause for resentment when, all other things equal, they wouldnt have 1% of BTC if they werent simply born with silver spoons in hand. clearly many smaller holders got in long before them, but have far fewer coins not by virtue of foresight or skill, but by virtue of birth. in that sense, i have far less respect for the twins than i do for many of the smaller fish around since 2010.

Life ain't fair. No point getting bent out of shape about it.
who's getting bent out of shape? someone mentioned jealousy and i said, yeah i am jealous. Smiley


There are many with far more wealth than the Winklevii with zero bitcoin holdings. Foresight, skill and/or luck certainly have something to do with their choice of holdings. If it was purely about money, then the 1% would have a much larger share of BTC in the market.
i said all other things equal. meaning that those with the same foresight to invest in bitcoin have much smaller holdings by virtue only of the twins being born into wealth.
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January 31, 2014, 10:24:01 PM
 #82078

who's getting bent out of shape? someone mentioned jealousy and i said, yeah i am jealous. Smiley


Jealousy is unhealthy. Switch to envy. Much better.
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January 31, 2014, 10:40:55 PM
 #82079

Sure is slow lately =/
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January 31, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
 #82080

I really dont like these Winklevossies. It seems they only try to make more money outta other people hard work and with daddy's money. They dont see the interest in bitcoin but only that grabbing 1% of it all would make them richer. They just pretend to be so smart but they just seems to get f**cking second if not last all the time.

ergo Zuckerberg ditched them
ergo Satoshi (and even FBI) got way more BTCs than they can ever dream of
ergo them ETF is far from opening.
ergo i wont consider a single news related to them as they mean nothing. Smiley

You sound jealous.
i sure am. but there is some cause for resentment when, all other things equal, they wouldnt have 1% of BTC if they werent simply born with silver spoons in hand. clearly many smaller holders got in long before them, but have far fewer coins not by virtue of foresight or skill, but by virtue of birth. in that sense, i have far less respect for the twins than i do for many of the smaller fish around since 2010.

Life ain't fair. Get over it. It's pretty unflattering for you to be envious when you yourself are likely to be very lucky in the birth lottery compared to most of Earth's population. Count your blessings. It'll make you a happier person.
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