Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[inca]

Ask side looking mighty thin on bitfinex. Let's see if we can drift up..

[Fatman3001]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

+345

[Greendragon]

But what benefit would (monetary) metal have compared to crypto? I only see downsides

It's a handy edge if and when the power grid craps out.
Yeah, cell phones & tablets are portable and have batteries... but those batteries can't get charged off the grid [solar]
in 99% of all cases.
Gradually, this will change for the better-but slowly.

Bitcoin remains dependent on electricity and the internet.
As do many other things, precious metals are not among those things.

Precious metals are money to more people in the world than is bitcoin.  This may not always be true.

A dual system with both would be better than either alone.

Not really, its not that if there is no internet and electricity that your bitcorns are GONE.
You need gas to drive a car to you know ? Or money to spread your mom's legs.

[Torque]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

+345

I would not even say that Gold is speculative anymore.  When one or a few powerful entities of the world control 99.99999995% of a subjectively high valued asset, they can basically set the market price of the remaining supply to anything they want.  Especially if that remainder has been fractionally reserved to hell, like PM's have been.

Just look at what De Beers had done in the past to the diamond market...

Side note:  Don't buy diamonds for your wife/fiancée/gf, buy moissanites!  Stop supporting the cartels!

[criptix]

Maybe this is related to the dump:

http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2015/07/13/rapper-50-cent-files-for-bankruptcy/

wtf? please elaborate!

[Fatman3001]

wtf? please elaborate!

He probably had some money in BTC: http://www.coindesk.com/50-cent-bitcoin-payments-new-album-animal-ambition/

Wouldn't that make him 500mBTC?

[aztecminer]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

gold will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something... while paper ( stock, bonds, etc) and digital currency can go to zero.

gold's current price is manipulated down which means it is not it's true value... which is exactly why a person would want to buy them.

bitcoin is a pump and dump and i am hoping for good luck with it since i own a bunch of it.

[Greendragon]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

gold will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something... while paper ( stock, bonds, etc) and digital currency can go to zero.

gold's current price is manipulated down which means it is not it's true value... which is exactly why a person would want to buy them.

bitcoin is a pump and dump and i am hoping for good luck with it since i own a bunch of it.

Gold has only value on earth. Think outside the box..

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[bt62567]

ron paul makes a good point why bitcoin would not be a good replacement for the failing 'in god we trust' to print and manipulate dollar, he says: "On reason Greece has been forced to seek bailouts from its EU partners is that Greece ceded control over its currency when it joined the European Union." http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/july/12/greece-today-america-tomorrow/

bitcoin would be just like the euro.. it would not work. only a metals backed currency will work as a replacement for the broken dollar 'interest to infinity' debt slavery system.

here is a scenario that bitcoiners could possibly face.. as the dollar is about to be replace during the "big block of cheese day" when all the cheese is turned into cheesecakes the cheesecakes will be worth less in the new currency. it will be the same for bitcoin because bitcoins will be priced in dollars but dollars will be worth less in the new currency. therefore bitcoins will receive the same haircut as those people who have their cheese turned into cheesecakes.

i still own a lot of bitcoins and i do not believe it will just die... but i no longer believe bitcoins is going to suddenly become some worldwide reserve currency and we are all suddenly going to be buying boats.. the state of Texas is building a gold depository, and not a bitcoin depository... they are demanding their gold from the fed. we will be able to trade metals for bitcoin and vice versa i am sure, but it will be metals that have the huge value more than bitcoin.

Things will not go suddenly.
We are already having an 8 year journey (publicizing of the whitepaper)

But I wish you good luck sending gold through a wire

like i said, we will be able to trade our metals for cryptos... and i believe we will trade our metals for A LOT of cryptos ... we can trade our metals for the new metals backed currency at a depository and buy cryptos from an exchange just like we do today. by using a metals backed currency we are not limited by an unconstitutional cashless society.

But what benefit would (monetary) metal have compared to crypto? I only see downsides and own both.

metals will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something.. while paper (bonds, stocks, etc) and computer digits can go to zero....

"Paper gold" market is rigged. There is far more gold on paper than there are real gold bars/coins etc.
Gold coins being traded 'on the street' will get inpurities/weighed down with time, we've tried that before.

Good luck with metals.

yes.. for now. because the central banks are buying and hoarding metals atm.. the point here is you guys think bitcoin is going to be the replacement currency for the failing usd and suddenly we will all be buying boats... in my scenario: when the usd finally fails there will be a bank holiday and capital controls, a new currency will be rolled out that will be metals backed. the old fiat usd will be exchanged for the new currency and our bitcoins will be revalued in the new metals backed currency. .. we wont be buying boats by holding bitcoins .. instead we will take another huge loss like many of us have during the big pump and dump .

we wont be trading 'gold coins' on the street. we will trade our metals into a depository for the new metals backed currency. and we will trade our bitcoins for a lot less of the new currency than what they are worth in fiat dollars today. we're going to take a haircut just like holders of fiat usd. you are betting that bitcoins will replace the fiat "in god we trust" for the fed to print and manipulate dollar and it's not going to .

The USD will ultimately be a stable functioning currency, no need to even regard context for anything because it is irrelevant. It is an unneeded, fundamentally flawed argument to better a bias.  It is other countries that may have disrupted currency systems for one reason or another. Gold is an outdated, misrepresented, manipulated, over-saturated, and falsified asset.

[bananaControl]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

gold will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something... while paper ( stock, bonds, etc) and digital currency can go to zero.

gold's current price is manipulated down which means it is not it's true value... which is exactly why a person would want to buy them.

bitcoin is a pump and dump and i am hoping for good luck with it since i own a bunch of it.

And it will reach the price of aluminium once the private space industry starts mining asteroids. There is NO limit to the amount of gold in existence out there, math on the other hand.

[E]

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

gold will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something... while paper ( stock, bonds, etc) and digital currency can go to zero.

gold's current price is manipulated down which means it is not it's true value... which is exactly why a person would want to buy them.

bitcoin is a pump and dump and i am hoping for good luck with it since i own a bunch of it.

And it will reach the price of aluminium once the private space industry starts mining asteroids. There is NO limit to the amount of gold in existence out there, math on the other hand.

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Gold's utility value is pretty low and its current price is mostly speculative. Good luck with that.

gold will ALWAYS FOREVER be worth something... while paper ( stock, bonds, etc) and digital currency can go to zero.

gold's current price is manipulated down which means it is not it's true value... which is exactly why a person would want to buy them.

bitcoin is a pump and dump and i am hoping for good luck with it since i own a bunch of it.

And it will reach the price of aluminium once the private space industry starts mining asteroids. There is NO limit to the amount of gold in existence out there, math on the other hand.

ALUMINUM'S STATUS IN THE MID-1880s

To fully appreciate William Frishmuth's 1884 technical achievement in the casting of the pyramid, an appraisal of the aluminum industry (if, indeed, its limited size could be called an industry) at that time provides a good insight.
The 1884 price of aluminum was approximately $1 per ounce, the same as the then prevailing market price of silver, which was considered a precious metal. The world production of new mine silver in 1884 was approximately 2,834 tonnes. Best reported estimates for world aluminum production in 1884 were 3.6 tonnes, most of it in France and England and some in Germany. Frishmuth's Philadelphia works, the only U.S. producer at that time, is given credit for production of 51 kilograms in 1884. Thus, with the thousand-fold difference in new production between the two metals we might expect that the economic laws of supply would foster a much higher price for aluminum than for silver; however, the demand factor of the same economic law (or the lack of demand) had kept the price of aluminum fairly static for the previous 20 years.

[eerygarden]

I am assuming that once we pass the $300 mark things really start getting fun.  

I am a little frustrated today though.  My husband told me that his aunt, which decided to purchase a few coins at $650 a while ago, called yesterday and wanted to bail out and told him to sell them all (he was holding them for her because she seemed to have difficulty with computer security).  Really?  Right when the rally is just getting started?  Sigh.  Now is the time to buy or at least HODL!

Did he sell them for her before the drop to 280-290?

[hmmkay]

The metal-backed currency requires trust. Something banks/politicians have squandered the last millennia.
If people learn about an asset that doesn't require trust, and is available worldwide (bitcoin) they will flock to it.
Not saying it will replace every day money immediately, but it might at the end. Why would you start trusting anything else?
About the haircuts, anything of value will get haircuts, that's how the government rolls, be it fiat, crypto, metals, real estate etc.

metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

the haircuts come from bank accounts, and then from the reset of the value of things into the new metals backed currency. if you own metals then you will trade the metals for the full value of the metal for the new metals backed currency. in my opinion the govy would prefer their citizens to buy metals. the reason they would want citizens to buy metals is because it keeps those metals in the country, and those metals will eventually be returned to the govy when the citizens trade them into the depository in exchange for the metals backed currency... all the citizens who are stacking act as a giant savings account of metals for the govy .. the govy doesnt want or need bitcoins, they want and need metals.

What the government wants is not something you should want, looking at their history.
If it were up to them, everyone would be taxed 100% and you'd get some fast devaluing currency in return just enough to make a living. Even foodstamps would be too much of value, since in 20 years they would still hold their value, not something 'they' want.

About the whales playing the market, sure, right now they can play around like it's nothing. The marketcap is laughable and I'm guessing less than 250k people are actually into bitcoin. But when bitcoin reaches enough people that it becomes mainstream, any 'dump' those whales try, will be swallowed up by the majority and they'll have to buy in higher resulting in less bitcoin. This will go on and on and result in a more even distribution of coins. Maybe there are smart whales (most of them lucky to be in the right place at the right time), but eventually they'll die of age or sickness. So future generations won't have to deal so much with this manipulation.

I'll say it again, the main issue here is trust. And bitcoin solves that issue quite nicely.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[tomothy]

""""""metals have a intrinsic value while bitcoins does not. i no longer trust bitcoin because it is, in my opinion, manipulated by whales and exchanges.your in the club or your not... their are predators out hunting for some poor newb who invests a bunch money into the scheme while they pump it and then they turn around and dump on them causing them to fear and dump their coins at a loss for their gain.. you trying to claim that is a system we can trust ?? this is my new opinion about bitcoin.

the haircuts come from bank accounts, and then from the reset of the value of things into the new metals backed currency. if you own metals then you will trade the metals for the full value of the metal for the new metals backed currency. in my opinion the govy would prefer their citizens to buy metals. the reason they would want citizens to buy metals is because it keeps those metals in the country, and those metals will eventually be returned to the govy when the citizens trade them into the depository in exchange for the metals backed currency... all the citizens who are stacking act as a giant savings account of metals for the govy .. the govy doesnt want or need bitcoins, they want and need metals. """"""

So it is common knowledge that there has been and is ongoing manipulation of the precious metals markets. We know that there was collusion with Libor, Gold, and Silver. What other markets have been manipulated and rigged? Well, it's fairly safe to assume Bitcoin is one of them. If you look at quantitative easing and stated backed asset purchases (i.e. stocks), one would argue that that's some additional continued, and ongoing manipulation. So basically, the whole system has been rigged, is currently rigged, and will go on continuing to be rigged. Gold?

Gold is important, and I think you make a valid assessment that it has intrinsic worth. I think the difficulty remains with how you transact or conduct global finance using shiny coins. Say a middle east country wants to sell oil to a north american country. If 'paper' is no longer valid, what do they do? Does the deal get held up until the gold is physically transported? To me, that seems unduly complex. So, what's the alternative? A trusted third party? Really? Who could you trust to hold your gold for you? Who would not run the risk of absconding with your shiny coins? Isn't that exactly the reason various entities have been, and are continuing to seek repatriation of their gold? What's the alternative?

Enter Bitcoin OR another similar cryptocurrency. If you were facing a 'haircut' the currency has a universally renown cost associated with it. You can convert for yuan or gbp or yen. It's fungible. So although it may be back by USD, it's also backed by everything and anything else. A better question would be whether or not it has reached critical mass; and I'd say it's still a bit pre-mature.

 But what's the alternative though, seriously? I mean honestly, suppose the situation was reversed and you had the US in a similar position as Greece? What if they proposed treating the US in a similar manner? Would that stand? I mean, if their economic circumstances were similar, examine finances and current market turmoil of US/China/Russia/France, etc. There is a significant amount of Debt, it's a hot potato and no one wants to get caught holding it. The difference is the US would go to war. Carry a big stick and the like.

They say the Greek Saga is finished but in all honesty, it seems like it has only just begun. The Euro Wars/clone wars have begun.

[aztecminer]

well there is one thing for sure... we are going to go find out. and there is another great thing about bitcoin, all the homeless can go crawl into a corner and die instead of bumming for money on a freeway corner . maybe they can create an app for giving money to homeless that prints out a cold storage wallet instantly from your cell phone. i'm not really against bitcoin.. i mean i own a bunch.. i just think its not going to work as our replacement currency for the 'in god we trust' print and manipulate 'interest to infinity' debt slavery system we have now. it's not going to be able to do it by itself. it is unconstitutional not to use gold and silver as a form of exchange...

[macsga]

well there is one thing for sure... we are going to go find out. and there is another great thing about bitcoin, all the homeless can go crawl into a corner and die instead of bumming for money on a freeway corner . maybe they can create an app for giving money to homeless that prints out a cold storage wallet instantly from your cell phone. i'm not really against bitcoin.. i mean i own a bunch.. i just think its not going to work as our replacement currency for the 'in god we trust' print and manipulate 'interest to infinity' debt slavery system we have now. it's not going to be able to do it by itself. it is unconstitutional not to use gold and silver as a form of exchange...

Being a part of it (or possessing a great portion for that matter) doesn't mean "replacing". Bitcoin never meant to be a replacement (as many falsely believe). Bitcoin is a means of decentralized transactions that needs no middle men and cannot be "created out of thin air" by some banker. I don't think it will ever be the day that Bitcoin will be able to buy a coffee via printed cold storage wallet if you ask me.

It will do me fine if it's able to serve international transactions or buying a home or car with it. In the best case scenario, it may be the store of value for all human wealth. That would've been great, but consider yourself a certain fact. Almost none of us here, will hold even one whole BTC by then.

[Miz4r]

well there is one thing for sure... we are going to go find out. and there is another great thing about bitcoin, all the homeless can go crawl into a corner and die instead of bumming for money on a freeway corner . maybe they can create an app for giving money to homeless that prints out a cold storage wallet instantly from your cell phone. i'm not really against bitcoin.. i mean i own a bunch.. i just think its not going to work as our replacement currency for the 'in god we trust' print and manipulate 'interest to infinity' debt slavery system we have now. it's not going to be able to do it by itself. it is unconstitutional not to use gold and silver as a form of exchange...

Being a part of it (or possessing a great portion for that matter) doesn't mean "replacing". Bitcoin never meant to be a replacement (as many falsely believe). Bitcoin is a means of decentralized transactions that needs no middle men and cannot be "created out of thin air" by some banker. I don't think it will ever be the day that Bitcoin will be able to buy a coffee via printed cold storage wallet if you ask me.

It will do me fine if it's able to serve international transactions or buying a home or car with it. In the best case scenario, it may be the store of value for all human wealth. That would've been great, but consider yourself a certain fact. Almost none of us here, will hold even one whole BTC by then.

You make a good point, BTC is not going to replace every other currency or type of money out there. It will be used by those who want to use it, on a voluntary basis. I'm sure there will still be gold and silver bugs, or those who prefer regular fiat and don't want anything to do with cryptocurrencies.

[JayJuanGee]

Maybe this is related to the dump:

http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2015/07/13/rapper-50-cent-files-for-bankruptcy/

I wouldn't call the up and down price movements of BTC of the past few days (even week) to be a dump, exactly.  We have a little battle regarding the price and also some profit taking going on. 

At this point, over the past weeks, the price has gone up, much more than it has gone down... therefore, the recent trend seems to be generally up....

On the other hand, if prices break back below $250, then I guess, we could surmise that, overall, prices are flat.  In any respect, it seems that we are far from any meaningful definition of dump, unless, perhaps, if prices go below $230-ish