Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[fairglu]

Does anybody know what Circle and Bitpay are going to do regarding the New York bitlicence?

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements. 

Bitpay buy and sell bitcoins. They also hold accounts of all their clients.

BitLicense application spectrum looks quite broad to me
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1147913.msg12091268#msg12091268

It affects any entity that deals with virtual currencies (not just bitcoin) and that falls under the NY finance department, which includes all the usual financial services as well as "service providers" (not necessarily financial, just needs to have a contractual service agreement)

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

I call it the Nyxit, lol.

Thats very good.  

[JorgeStolfi]

Does anybody know what Circle and Bitpay are going to do regarding the New York bitlicence?

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements. 

Bitpay buy and sell bitcoins. They also hold accounts of all their clients.

Sorry, I meant "buy and sell from individual customers".

I recall their TOS saying explicitly that you could not use them to turn your bitcoins to cash.  Basically they came into play when you clicked "pay with bitcoin" at some merchant; they converted the merchant's price to bitcoin, took your bitcoins, sold them, and sent the dollars to the merchant's bank account. 

Have they changed recently?  Or are you confusing them with Coinbase?

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

BitLicense application spectrum looks quite broad to me
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1147913.msg12091268#msg12091268

Its funny when you read into the bones of the NY bitlicense, its pure 19th Century thinking for dealing with a 21st century technology.

[Norway]

Does anybody know what Circle and Bitpay are going to do regarding the New York bitlicence?

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements. 

Bitpay buy and sell bitcoins. They also hold accounts of all their clients.

Sorry, I meant "buy and sell from individual customers".

I recall their TOS saying explicitly that you could not use them to turn your bitcoins to cash.  Basically they came into play when you clicked "pay with bitcoin" at some merchant; they converted the merchant's price to bitcoin, took your bitcoins, sold them, and sent the dollars to the merchant's bank account. 

Have they changed recently?  Or are you confusing them with Coinbase?

I think you are confused if you don't think Bitpay need a bitlicence for NY customers, professor. Man up and admit you were wrong 

[fonsie]

Man up and admit you were wrong  

Don't get your hopes up. He's not capable of either. He will however give you massive amounts of text if you're not careful.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements.  

I think you are confused if you don't think Bitpay need a bitlicence for NY customers, professor. Man up and admit you were wrong  

Note "may".  

And I still wonder whether they are subject to the NY BitLicense.  IIRC, they had those exclusions in their TOS precisely to avoid the need for money business/trasmitter licenses and to operate in the whole US without separate state licenses.

[Norway]

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements.  

I think you are confused if you don't think Bitpay need a bitlicence for NY customers, professor. Man up and admit you were wrong  

Note "may".  

And I still wonder whether they are subject to the NY BitLicense.  IIRC, they had those exclusions in their TOS precisely to avoid the need for money business/trasmitter licenses and to operate in the whole US without separate state licenses.

You claim that Bitpay doesn't buy or sell bitcoin, and that they don't hold accounts in name of clients. Read up, man up and admit you are wrong professor 

[gentlemand]

You claim that Bitpay doesn't buy or sell bitcoin, and that they don't hold accounts in name of clients. Read up, man up and admit you are wrong professor 

The sun is likely to burn out before that occurs.

[noobtrader]

BitPay is just a payment processor (e.g. it would not sell or buy bitcoins, or hold accounts in name of clients).  As such, it may have different licensing requirements.  

I think you are confused if you don't think Bitpay need a bitlicence for NY customers, professor. Man up and admit you were wrong  

Note "may".  

And I still wonder whether they are subject to the NY BitLicense.  IIRC, they had those exclusions in their TOS precisely to avoid the need for money business/trasmitter licenses and to operate in the whole US without separate state licenses.

You claim that Bitpay doesn't buy or sell bitcoin, and that they don't hold accounts in name of clients. Read up, man up and admit you are wrong professor 

 

cmon man, dont bully our professor here...    everyone makes mistake u know ....   

[JorgeStolfi]

You claim that Bitpay doesn't buy or sell bitcoin, and that they don't hold accounts in name of clients.

Yes.

Read up, man up and admit you are wrong professor 

I did read their TOS and a discussion of this issue some months ago.  Is there something new that I should read?

[Norway]

You claim that Bitpay doesn't buy or sell bitcoin, and that they don't hold accounts in name of clients.

Yes.

How on earth do you think Bitpay can do their operations without buying/selling bitcoin (exchange) or having bank linked customer accounts?
You have not thought this through, sir. 

[Natalia_AnatolioPAMM]

Does anybody know what Circle and Bitpay are going to do regarding the New York bitlicence?

Even if they don't, Coinbase is and they have everything what those two offer.

and I guess Coinbase is generally much better than these 2

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

How on earth do you think Bitpay can do their operations without buying/selling bitcoin (exchange) or having bank linked customer accounts?
You have not thought this through, sir. 

I explained:

Sorry, I meant "buy and sell from individual customers".

I recall their TOS saying explicitly that you could not use them to turn your bitcoins to cash.  Basically they came into play when you clicked "pay with bitcoin" at some merchant; they converted the merchant's price to bitcoin, took your bitcoins, sold them, and sent the dollars to the merchant's bank account. 

See, I even put a "sorry" there. 

They are not a bitcoin exchange (like Coinbase is), and (AFAIK) still take care not to be used as one, precisely so that they do not need to register as MSB/MTB.  A payment processor is narowly defined in law: it can only accept payments from consumers on behalf of other merchants, in exchange for goods and services delivered by those merchants to those consumers.  They do sell the bitcoins, over the counter or on exchanges (not to the consumers) and take bitcoins from the consumers (but do not give them dollars in exchange).  Their clients are the merchants, not the consumers.

By the way, here is some analysis of the traffic through BitPay's wallet that I did last December.  The source data shows (among other things) their periodic deposits on Bitstamp and other exchanges.

[crazy-pilot]

So happy not living in the U.S. This type of thing is so typical it surprises me it has taken so long. I hope people use their common sense, and vote to actually do something about this. U.S. Government is way to ruled by companies, instead of being appointed and take accounted for by their residents.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

I think you are confused if you don't think Bitpay need a bitlicence for NY customers, professor. Man up and admit you were wrong  

This from BitPay's CCO, Tim Byun.

BitPay does not have any contracts or relationships with consumers.  Consumers’ only interaction with the Processing Service is through

a Merchant’s website or point-of-sale system that has integrated the Processing Service.  As BitPay

offers no consumer-facing services, consumers cannot engage BitPay to remit bitcoins to another per-
son, buy or sell bitcoins for themselves, or store their bitcoins.

[Elwar]

How on earth do you think Bitpay can do their operations without buying/selling bitcoin (exchange) or having bank linked customer accounts?
You have not thought this through, sir. 

I explained:

Sorry, I meant "buy and sell from individual customers".

I recall their TOS saying explicitly that you could not use them to turn your bitcoins to cash.  Basically they came into play when you clicked "pay with bitcoin" at some merchant; they converted the merchant's price to bitcoin, took your bitcoins, sold them, and sent the dollars to the merchant's bank account. 

See, I even put a "sorry" there. 

They are not a bitcoin exchange (like Coinbase is), and (AFAIK) still take care not to be used as one, precisely so that they do not need to register as MSB/MTB.  A payment processor is narowly defined in law: it can only accept payments from consumers on behalf of other merchants, in exchange for goods and services delivered by those merchants to those consumers.  They do sell the bitcoins, over the counter or on exchanges (not to the consumers) and take bitcoins from the consumers (but do not give them dollars in exchange).  Their clients are the merchants, not the consumers.

By the way, here is some analysis of the traffic through BitPay's wallet that I did last December.  The source data shows (among other things) their periodic deposits on Bitstamp and other exchanges.

I converted 800 bitcoins into cash one time back in the day through BitPay.

That was before the Stazi stuff though.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation