Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[billyjoeallen]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

[Divitiae miserae]

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

Time and expertise are surely cardinal elements. I was precisely interested in knowing the number of hours that a bitcoin trader who actually makes money devotes every day to the activity.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

We have a different understanding of economics. What's good for the rich is centralized government that can be bought much easier than providing value in the marketplace. The State is just an engine for concentrating benefits and distributing costs.  

Common people think concentrated power is great, if only the right people are in charge. The problem is that the system is designed so that the right people never get in charge.  You can't wear the One Ring for any length of time and keep your soul. You have to throw that bitch into the fires of Mount Doom.

>Common people think
Good thing you're unlike the common poor, a thinking feller, more like the rich. If it wasn't for the meddling gubermint...
Divide and conquer

This is why I don't like to get drawn into discussions with newbies. Sarcasm isn't an argument. If you want to talk about divide and conquer, look at what's happening with the core developers. There are real technical and philosophical differences in opinion that are being exacerbated by someone. What is unknown is if it is manipulators trying to get coins on the cheap or banksters killing the competition.

But if you think the State doesn't have it's useful idiots like you claim rich people do, then look at every serviceman who came home in a flag-draped coffin.

[alesx.onfire]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

[GreekGeek]

Time and expertise are surely cardinal elements. I was precisely interested in knowing the number hours that a bitcoin trader who actually makes money devotes every day to the activity.

Don't know if I am considered a trader but
I ussually buy and hodl for long periods (weeks to years)

I keep an eye on the price every hour or so

[wakasaki808]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

except when btc went from 220 to 515

[Divitiae miserae]

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Inflation, though, lightly scorches you; that's why one has to invest her savings.

[alesx.onfire]

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Inflation, though, lightly scorches you; that's why one has to invest her savings.

lightly... like a wife

[TERA]

TERA makes piles of money trading ponzi schemes

How long does one have to be preoccupied with trading on a daily basis to earn, let's say, twenty grands a year? What would the required initial capital be?

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

You dont really any capital to start. I started with a few hundred bucks, in addition to building miners. The mining wasn't too profitable. It added a little more 'starting capital' but mostly it was a good learning experience and gives you more knowledge about the fundamentals of crypto. But really you can just start with a few hundred bucks, or maybe even less.

When you have such a small amount of money, you can easily play all the markets because you don't require any volume. You can play altcoins (or mine them) and ride all the 500% waves with your 1 BTC of volume. Or you can trade bitcoin/litecoin but get much easier fills because of the only 1BTC volume, and you can usually pay only the 0.05% maker fee on bitfinex.

Once you get into the higher numbers of bitcoin, it's much harder to trade with requiring people to execute against your massive orders, and altcoins are pretty much out. You have to be more predictive rather than reactive and really know what you're doing and use TA, which doesn't work. Since I started trading with larger numbers it's been really stressful and boring. I want to go back.

So don't worry about starting with a whole bunch of capital. If you really want to be dedicated to trading and learning how crypto works, it will be easier, better, and less risky to start with a small number. Then it might only be 6 months or so until you have a large number like you said .

If you start with a small amount and lose it, you might not have a problem just depositing another small amount.  If you start with a large amount and lose it, you'll probably never want to come back to crypto again.


On a side note, when I first started trading in 2013 there was much more volatility,  and more volume in the altcoin markets. So this might be harder for you.

[Divitiae miserae]

Thanks.

[billyjoeallen]

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Inflation, though, lightly scorches you; that's why one has to invest her savings.

That's a good point that I agree with strongly, but until this blocksize/scaling issue gets solved, You're just gambling (unless you have asymmetric information).

What I hate about the current economic situation is that we are FORCED to gamble because interest real interest rates are negative (adjusting for inflation). The safest investment is paying off all high interest loans and living within your means. Invest your time in learning things, getting in shape and staying healthy. Invest in people you love. 

[billyjoeallen]

We have a different understanding of economics. What's good for the rich is centralized government that can be bought much easier than providing value in the marketplace. The State is just an engine for concentrating benefits and distributing costs.  

Common people think concentrated power is great, if only the right people are in charge. The problem is that the system is designed so that the right people never get in charge.  You can't wear the One Ring for any length of time and keep your soul. You have to throw that bitch into the fires of Mount Doom.

>Common people think
Good thing you're unlike the common poor, a thinking feller, more like the rich. If it wasn't for the meddling gubermint...
Divide and conquer

This is why I don't like to get drawn into discussions with newbies. Sarcasm isn't an argument. If you want to talk about divide and conquer, look at what's happening with the core developers. There are real technical and philosophical differences in opinion that are being exacerbated by someone. What is unknown is if it is manipulators trying to get coins on the cheap or banksters killing the competition.

But if you think the State doesn't have it's useful idiots like you claim rich people do, then look at every serviceman who came home in a flag-draped coffin.

Sarcasm has nothing to do with my being new. I gave you a case-in-point example of how effectively you've been brainwashed, disassociating yourself from "[those clueless] common people," who, presumably, haven't pierced the veil. Not like the special snowflake with esoteric knowledge gleaned from the sacred texts of zerohedge, mises.org & the CATO 'Institute.'
Not like you!

Ok, we're into name-calling. I'm done now.

[Ibian]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Well, aside from the constant devaluation.

[billyjoeallen]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Well, aside from the constant devaluation.

Devaluation as compared to what? And it what time-frame? Gold and oil are not holding their value against the dollar. Yes, there is an inflation tax, but dollars are the most liquid asset in the world, so for many it is worth it to have flexibility. Things change. You have to have the ability to adapt to new conditions and fiat helps you do that.

Someday some form of crypto will likely be better, but it won't be on a network with a 7 transaction per second capacity.

[spooderman]

Since I started trading with larger numbers it's been really stressful and boring. I want to go back.

i have a solution.

send 90% of your coins to me and i shall grant you your wish.

[billyjoeallen]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Well, aside from the constant devaluation.

Well see, fiat is meant to discourage you from holding it, because it's money. It's meant to encourage you to *invest* in useful shit, like real businesses that do actual stuff, or spend it on shit you enjoy, like hookers and blow.
And it has almost succeeded in your case, but not quite. You did figure out that you shouldn't just hodl fiat, but then went on to 'invest' in what amounts to little more than an elaborate pyramid scheme. Oh well, nothing's perfect, all has fallen short of His glory. Even fiat.

I hear what you're saying, but it comes back to economics. You can't have SUSTAINABLE growth without capital formation (savings). You can't build wealth without deferring gratification. A fisherman who wants to be more productive than catching fish by hand has to take time away from fishing to make a fishing rod.  Then he catches more fish faster, but he has to take time away from that to make a net or a trot line. 

 Fiat and artificially low interest rates are designed to increase the velocity of money at the expense of capital formation. This will destroy the economy in the long run. We're in the process of watching that play out now. 

[Ibian]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Well, aside from the constant devaluation.

Well see, fiat is meant to discourage you from holding it, because it's money. It's meant to encourage you to *invest* in useful shit, like real businesses that do actual stuff, or spend it on shit you enjoy, like hookers and blow.
And it has almost succeeded in your case, but not quite. You did figure out that you shouldn't just hodl fiat, but then went on to 'invest' in what amounts to little more than an elaborate pyramid scheme. Oh well, nothing's perfect, all has fallen short of His glory. Even fiat.

I hear what you're saying, but it comes back to economics. You can't have SUSTAINABLE growth without capital formation (savings). You can't build wealth without deferring gratification. A fisherman who wants to be more productive than catching fish by hand has to take time away from fishing to make a fishing rod.  Then he catches more fish faster, but he has to take time away from that to make a net or a trot line. 

 Fiat and artificially low interest rates are designed to increase the velocity of money at the expense of capital formation. This will destroy the economy in the long run. We're in the process of watching that play out now. 

So which is it? For or against fiat?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

If you are good enough, you could do it with a thousand bucks. If you suck, you could turn a million bucks into twenty grand in a year.

I guess we won't get statistical information... not that Homo statisticus' (Bitcoin) average trader exists, but it's indicative. Anecdotal (but actual) evidence is welcome too.

The average trader loses money. It's close to the Parato ratio 80:20 losers:winners. Not that many of the losers will admit that.

holding fiat has burned me zero times

Well, aside from the constant devaluation.

Well see, fiat is meant to discourage you from holding it, because it's money. It's meant to encourage you to *invest* in useful shit, like real businesses that do actual stuff, or spend it on shit you enjoy, like hookers and blow.
And it has almost succeeded in your case, but not quite. You did figure out that you shouldn't just hodl fiat, but then went on to 'invest' in what amounts to little more than an elaborate pyramid scheme. Oh well, nothing's perfect, all has fallen short of His glory. Even fiat.

I hear what you're saying, but it comes back to economics. You can't have SUSTAINABLE growth without capital formation (savings). You can't build wealth without deferring gratification. A fisherman who wants to be more productive than catching fish by hand has to take time away from fishing to make a fishing rod.  Then he catches more fish faster, but he has to take time away from that to make a net or a trot line. 

 Fiat and artificially low interest rates are designed to increase the velocity of money at the expense of capital formation. This will destroy the economy in the long run. We're in the process of watching that play out now. 

So which is it? For or against fiat?

When you ask an economist a question like that, they will respond with "as compared to what?" The question is meaningless otherwise.