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Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (0.8%)
7/28 - 11 (8.9%)
8/4 - 16 (12.9%)
8/11 - 8 (6.5%)
8/18 - 6 (4.8%)
8/25 - 8 (6.5%)
After August - 74 (59.7%)
Total Voters: 124

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26488877 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
billyjoeallen
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January 18, 2016, 11:01:22 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.
ChartBuddy
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January 18, 2016, 11:02:08 PM

Coin



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marcus_of_augustus
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January 18, 2016, 11:06:21 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

All of your arguments are equally specious ... and not just you, but all of them should learn some humility and know when to shut up.
Fatman3001
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January 18, 2016, 11:31:42 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

Good point! Let's get back to what we do best!!!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

Break through that bloody $390 yet!!!!!!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!
JayJuanGee
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January 18, 2016, 11:32:44 PM

Do you really believe those chart buddy numbers?   I mean really, if you look at Blockchain.info, you get spikes between 45% and 75%, but currently, the average is around 60%.

I can give you the code and you can run this shit yourself. It's all really trivial calls and standard "how to calculate averages" stuff.


I am not attempting to accuse you of any purposeful misrepresentation, but I do understand that empty blocks are not being counted in the chart buddy's renditions of how full are the blocks on an hourly basis. 

Accordingly, leaving out blocks (whether a more accurate representation or not) could be the reason that blockchain.info is coming up with different numbers.. 

Like i mentioned, blockchain.info has been recently mostly ranging in the 45% to 75% territory... with more common averages around 60%.   My expressions of skepticism regarding how full are the blocks results in my ongoing assertion that the imminence of fullblockalypse seems to be a bit exaggerated by a lot of folks.. and intentions sometimes seem a bit questionable to be engaging in such exaggerations.....

On an ongoing basis, I am reading various exaggerated accounts regarding how important it is to scale up.. etc . etc. etc. and those exaggerations cause me to be even more skeptical about what is being represented.  Also, I have been hearing that transaction fees are going through the roof, and I made a couple of transfers in recent weeks of more than 10BTC, and on each occasion, my fees were about .0002BTC, which was about $.07 to $.09, depending on the then BTC price.  I hardly recognize those fees as exorbitant, even though they may be a bit higher than previous fees that I had paid in some of my earlier moving around  of my bitcoins.
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January 18, 2016, 11:35:02 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

Good point! Let's get back to what we do best!!!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

Break through that bloody $390 yet!!!!!!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!


Been agreeing with a scary number of his posts. Hold me?
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 18, 2016, 11:37:53 PM

Bahh.
ImI
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January 18, 2016, 11:39:20 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

All of your arguments are equally specious ... and not just you, but all of them should learn some humility and know when to shut up.

Folks you see whats the idiotic part of this whole discussion? Both solutions 2MB/4MB blocks and Segwit/LN/etc will solve this issue longterm. Maybe Bitcoin is better shortterm with one solution but longterm it wont matter. BUT what really could hurt Bitcoin longterm is that silly fight that has embarked between silly nerd kids unable to listen to each other and unable to do compromises!

So everybody step back a little and breathe, Bitcoin won't die no matter which way we go, but this civilwar has to come to an end!
Fatman3001
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January 18, 2016, 11:40:30 PM

I think an increase to 2MB is reasonable.

Can I ask why any sane person wants 8MB & even bigger blocks? It makes no sense at all, what do you possibly gain from that or is it because you think a hard fork will make the price crash so you can get a cheap entry point?

Are a large majority of the big block enthusiasts just chancers who haven't got many/any coins & secretly want uncertainty around a hard fork so they can load up on uber cheap coins?

Anybody want to answer honestly, no trolling?

Honestly? If we introduce 8MB(+) blocks in the form of BIP101 then the market will now that this issue will not have to be revisited in the not so distant future. The only "bad" thing that will happen is that Luke-Jr and Gmaxwell will throw a hissy fit.


errrhhhh...sry



BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNN!!!!!!

TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIINNNN!!!!!!!!!!!


AlexGR
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January 18, 2016, 11:42:34 PM

If you're buying a coffee or are a retailer with a POS terminal, you need the transaction to go through fast.

With blocks getting issued in either one minute or 30 minutes, your main problem is confirmation time, not fees.

If you can do it with 0-conf, obviously fees are not an issue. You are confirmed even if the transactions goes in 10 blocks.

But 0-conf is ...well... double-spendable.

No. I'm saying that with limited size blocks, there is no fee which guarantees you a place in the next block since others may be bidding higher than you. Even you have a fee of $5, if everyone else is at $5.01, you're out of luck, even if a miner really wanted your $5.

It's a paradox only because you mentally choose the losing side. You could make an equally valid paradox saying you will always beat the "loser" by paying 5.02 as he would always pay 5.01 or less and thus be left out due to space scarcity... lol?

Quote
Wait, I thought we were comparing to parcel delivery services. Which one does that?

Parcel delivery services overcharge you to avoid dynamic charge.

If they feel, for example, that their cost is 1.3$ to 4.5$ depending the workload, destination, economy of scales during certain circumstances of mass deliveries etc etc, they may charge you 5$ "just in case", so that they always make profit.

Bitcoin is far more efficient and that's not a problem, it's a feature in the sense that you don't need to pay more than you have to.

So, for example, if first-block inclusion fees fluctuate between, say, 10 cents and 30 cents, yes of course you could be paying a "fixed" dollar to be always in and I could give you an answer like that, but you would be overpaying by doing that. If you pay 31cents though you'll be relatively assured of inclusion (unless you hit a miner where he is not even interested in your peanuts compared to the block subsidy and mines 0-txs). Still you might be overpaying a bit compared to a riskier 20 cents.

Actually there is a market gap here for some kind of website / service that monitors broacasts, sees when txs are included and finds out precisely what the cut-off for first block inclusion is by seeing which went through and which didn't in prior blocks (provided prior blocks actually mined txs and were not 0-tx blocks). I feel that bitcoin-qt's estimations could be improved and from what I read, the same goes for light clients.

The genius part of Bitcoin is that is more than an engineering work, the design understands basic economic and psychological principles (game theory), and unite them in an environment, where everyone can join voluntary.

It is genius but it can't cover everything. It didn't forsee the aggressive takeover through a developers schism which wants to fork the currency and create a precedent of the currency splitting again and again in the future because devs disagree and promote division.

Money can't be forked / have the supply diluted / create 2 parallel currencies of believers in BTC and believers in BTCC - and then in every critical junction have this happen again and again. This is bullshit. The human component vulnerabilities were underestimated and I feel Satoshi's warning back in August might be true: If the fork succeeds he will be forced to officially declare it a failure.

From what I'm seeing in the poll: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1331385.0

...it's up to 77.2% for "no" and "probably no". Now, that's way too low for my risk-aversion preferences... I don't know if I can "afford" a 23% uncertainty or risk (going by the wisdom of the crowd). According to my assessment the risk is actually higher because the substance is solid.

The thing is, every democratic process can be used to create rifts.

Let's say you have a community and then you have 10 issues to solve.

You start with 100 people who vote 50-50 in every single issue.

After the first round / first issue, and if it involves "heated" debates people have split in 50-50 and may have hostilities between them, like we do right now with "core / classic".

Then in the second issue, let's say the 50% who thought they were "friends" because they sided on the same side of round 1, may be in opposite sides in issue number 2. For example say after a classic fork some disagree about where classic should be going and create a new fork.

So community is now divided in 4 parts

-25% voted yes in issue 1 / voted yes in issue 2
-25% voted yes in issue 1 / voted no in issue 2
-25% voted no in issue 2 / voted yes in issue 2
-25% voted no in issue 1 / voted no in issue 2

In the third voting about a third issue, the community will have split in 16 parts.

That is problematic and can never be applied to currencies.

If it does, the currency is useless - at least as store of value which requires confidence. The assumption that most people will side with the miners even if they disagree may hold some truth, but even so if you lose even 10% in each round that sticks with an old fork for ideological reasons, then you have created 16 currencies over the first fork and 2 consequent decisions in each fork - while losing a good chunk of people in the process and preventing a whole lot of others from coming onboard due to the constant "cell division" in each "democratic rift" or "free market choice" or whatever term one may use. It's a weird mechanism.

It's a united we stand / divided we fall situation.
Fatman3001
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January 18, 2016, 11:43:30 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

All of your arguments are equally specious ... and not just you, but all of them should learn some humility and know when to shut up.

Folks you see whats the idiotic part of this whole discussion? Both solutions 2MB/4MB blocks and Segwit/LN/etc will solve this issue longterm. Maybe Bitcoin is better shortterm with one solution but longterm it wont matter. BUT what really could hurt Bitcoin longterm is that silly fight that has embarked between silly nerd kids unable to listen to each other and unable to do compromises!

So everybody step back a little and breathe, Bitcoin won't die no matter which way we go, but this civilwar has to come to an end!

Hmmmm.....

JayJuanGee
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January 18, 2016, 11:44:30 PM

maybe one has to subtract those blocks that are empty on purpose

Note that I still include the empty blocks for the red-line indicator so it's easy to see with and without that calculation.

The block fullness is actually fairly variable so the averages you get depend very much on your sampling time. Plus the number of blocks in an hour is also somewhat variable. You can have 4 blocks one hour for 98% full and then maybe 10 blocks another hour for an average of 40% full. The problem is, those 10 blocks at 40% don't really help the person who couldn't get their transaction on the chain in the 4-blocks-per-hour time period.

As always, the question has to be, "what am I looking to represent". A daily average might not present a useful number if you're wanting to know about user experience whereas an hourly can give a better insight as that's closer to the timescale for a typical Bitcoin transaction. It doesn't help that the daily average interstate speed was 50mph when an accident means you're stuck in non-moving traffic for an hour.

I haven't looked but transactions may be on a 24 hour cycle also. Low transaction volumes at certain times of the day would contribute to a low daily averages while high volume times may still be having problems that would indicate a need for remediation.

In summary, averages are tricky when it comes to interpretation and divining meaning. Which is why I included the per-block indicator dots.


That is a decent explanation regarding how you are attempting to represent what is going on accurately and without bias, but for some reason, even though you have been explaining in various posts, readers still seem to be a bit confused about what some of the indicators mean.

Can we click on chartbuddy and receive your various explanations concerning what the various numbers, scales, dots and charts represent in a kind of one stop shopping location?

Don't get me wrong, because I am not trying to bust your balls on any of this.  I think that you have been doing a great service to this thread with your creation and updates of chart buddy through the years... and by taking on such tasks, you are likely to receive various unwarranted and comments of non appreciation.
billyjoeallen
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January 18, 2016, 11:48:41 PM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

All of your arguments are equally specious ... and not just you, but all of them should learn some humility and know when to shut up.

Oh, really? Who are you and what have you done with the real Marcus Augustus? The guy I used to know would not mistake an assertion for an argument. What bias is preventing you from seeing what is so obvious to us?

Something isn't valuable just because it's scarce. It has to be useful and scarce. There's thousands of artists out there selling one-of-a-kind paintings for rent money or less for every Slavador Dali or Monet.

You can't say Bitcoin's Network Effect prevents competition while limiting the size of the network. That's just inviting the very competition to which you claim Bitcoin is immune. Just because security decreases network efficiency doesn't mean all inefficiency is increased security. Sometimes inefficiency is just added complexity and friction.


JayJuanGee
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January 18, 2016, 11:58:05 PM

Do you really believe those chart buddy numbers?

So you're calling me a liar. Either

1)Prove it

2)Apologize.

3)Show the world that you're a man of no honor.


I think that I already elaborated on what I had meant in my earlier posts regarding the reason for my chartbuddy comment, and again I have not been calling you a liar.. nor accusing you of any purposeful attempts at misrepresentation. 

I will apologize to the extent that my words may have been read by you and possibly others as implying some level of purposeful misrepresentation coming from you, because so far, up until now, I have not witnessed any such attempts from you to purposefully misrepresent in regards to chartbuddy.


Anyhow, I believe that there is a need for all of us to retain a certain amount of thicked skinnedness when dealing with some of these forum matters and comments that we receive that may seem to be criticsms and reflections of non-appreciation, and surely over the years, I have received my fair share of what I would count as selective and emotional unwarranted attacks on me (and others may assert that I deserved every single bit and maybe even more of some of those attacks that I received)... hahahahaha    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy   Can we make up?   Wink
ChartBuddy
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January 19, 2016, 12:01:45 AM

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billyjoeallen
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January 19, 2016, 12:08:23 AM



Parcel delivery services overcharge you to avoid dynamic charge.


False. Parcel services do what their customers want them to do or they go out of business. It's the customers who demand a static charge so that they can know what their future expenses will be.  Unless you are suggesting that UPS, FedEx, USPS etc are all colluding against the public.
billyjoeallen
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January 19, 2016, 12:13:16 AM

Do you really believe those chart buddy numbers?

So you're calling me a liar. Either

1)Prove it

2)Apologize.

3)Show the world that you're a man of no honor.


I think that I already elaborated on what I had meant in my earlier posts regarding the reason for my chartbuddy comment, and again I have not been calling you a liar.. nor accusing you of any purposeful attempts at misrepresentation. 

I will apologize to the extent that my words may have been read by you and possibly others as implying some level of purposeful misrepresentation coming from you, because so far, up until now, I have not witnessed any such attempts from you to purposefully misrepresent in regards to chartbuddy.


Anyhow, I believe that there is a need for all of us to retain a certain amount of thicked skinnedness when dealing with some of these forum matters and comments that we receive that may seem to be criticsms and reflections of non-appreciation, and surely over the years, I have received my fair share of what I would count as selective and emotional unwarranted attacks on me (and others may assert that I deserved every single bit and maybe even more of some of those attacks that I received)... hahahahaha    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy   Can we make up?   Wink

You got more out him than I did, Richie. JJG either gets punched out a lot or he cowardly limits calling people liars to online forums. 
JayJuanGee
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January 19, 2016, 12:23:08 AM

Do you really believe those chart buddy numbers?

So you're calling me a liar. Either

1)Prove it

2)Apologize.

3)Show the world that you're a man of no honor.


I think that I already elaborated on what I had meant in my earlier posts regarding the reason for my chartbuddy comment, and again I have not been calling you a liar.. nor accusing you of any purposeful attempts at misrepresentation.  

I will apologize to the extent that my words may have been read by you and possibly others as implying some level of purposeful misrepresentation coming from you, because so far, up until now, I have not witnessed any such attempts from you to purposefully misrepresent in regards to chartbuddy.


Anyhow, I believe that there is a need for all of us to retain a certain amount of thicked skinnedness when dealing with some of these forum matters and comments that we receive that may seem to be criticsms and reflections of non-appreciation, and surely over the years, I have received my fair share of what I would count as selective and emotional unwarranted attacks on me (and others may assert that I deserved every single bit and maybe even more of some of those attacks that I received)... hahahahaha    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy   Can we make up?   Wink

You got more out him than I did, Richie. JJG either gets punched out a lot or he cowardly limits calling people liars to online forums.  

BJA... seems to be proving my point.... .. likes to stir shit and point fingers... .. and describe various of his supposed/hypothetical BTC investment strategies that make little to no sense because he is constantly a high-baller and winning like a mo fo... no matter what. yet, we keep thinking that he is leaving BTC, but in reality, he is never gonna leave cause he is going to whine and shit-stir no matter what the outcomes, even if we witness him getting his way, he will stay around, continue to post disingenuous half truth, point fingers at others and just ask for more and more of what he wants....


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January 19, 2016, 12:26:33 AM

All the other bigblockers are making better arguments than me. Maybe I should just shut up for a while. Carry on.

All of your arguments are equally specious ... and not just you, but all of them should learn some humility and know when to shut up.

You can't say Bitcoin's Network Effect prevents competition while limiting the size of the network.


What you guise have totally missed in all your big-block bullrage is that scalability does not mean what you think it means. The network of transactions can grow exponentially while the blocksize may only need to grow linearly or not at all. Blocksize is NOT the only measure for the size of Bitcoin's Network Effect (and yes we all want to get-rich-quick from Bitcoin's fabled Network Effect peter_r-Metcalfe-pretty-coloured-gif). Bitcoin the currency can have many different layered solutions that will scale the total transaction capacity and currency network effects without loading it all onto the core bitcoin network infrastructure (that is not ready for it and will never handle all the world's current transactions for decades anyway).

The necessity of splitting out the various functions of the original satoshi prototype client, mining, network-transport, validation, wallet into an ecosystem of layered technologies is a natural manifestation of bitcoin's success. It needs to be done anyway and will be done at some point. Layered architectures are totally uncontroversial and well-understood approaches to scaling up and broadening out network capacities using stacks of technology instead of monolithic clients that do all functions and end up full of magic hard-wired constants and temporary hacks (like blocksize 'bumps'). We need to solve the hard problems now and not delay it with the seemingly easy, quick, cheap fix that will risk killing bitcoin in the future, near or far.

tl;dr rethink your premises, blocksize is not equal to network size.
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January 19, 2016, 12:39:17 AM

I think an increase to 2MB is reasonable.

Can I ask why any sane person wants 8MB & even bigger blocks? It makes no sense at all, what do you possibly gain from that or is it because you think a hard fork will make the price crash so you can get a cheap entry point?

Are a large majority of the big block enthusiasts just chancers who haven't got many/any coins & secretly want uncertainty around a hard fork so they can load up on uber cheap coins?

Anybody want to answer honestly, no trolling?

Honestly? If we introduce 8MB(+) blocks in the form of BIP101 then the market will now that this issue will not have to be revisited in the not so distant future. The only "bad" thing that will happen is that Luke-Jr and Gmaxwell will throw a hissy fit.


But Fatty: I read that some sort of max block size is necessary to prevent miners from preventing people from running full nodes by creating too-large blocks. Is this true?!?! Would 8MB do that??

sauce
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