Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Richy_T]

Coin


Explanation

What happened to the block stats?

I had to reindex the blockchain to be able to examine old transactions and due to a design decision that is annoying but that I can sympathize with, that makes the data unavailable until it completes and it was taking a long time so I disabled the widget. I think it should be done now though.

Edit: Nope, still rolling.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Coin


Explanation

What happened to the block stats?

I had to reindex the blockchain to be able to examine old transactions and due to a design decision that is annoying but that I can sympathize with, that makes the data unavailable until it completes and it was taking a long time so I disabled the widget. I think it should be done now though.

Richy - My PC froze with Core open a few weeks ago, I had to reindex the entire blockchain too.

Fucking nightmare.

[Fatman3001]

@lambie You know me, nerds are easy prey.

? ? ?

Are you slow or something?

I am not the CEO of Bitfury.

Here: https://mobile.twitter.com/valeryvavilov/status/688054411650818048

Troll Valery instead.

I am not trolling you or insinuating that you know his mind. This is the speculation forum where we discuss data and speculate upon it. I am asking for your opinion on why Bitfury gives a nod of support and than shortly after attacks most of the principles that support the implementation he gave a nod of support to.

Do you have an opinion on this or do you believe the list of statements I laid out don't fundamentally undercut XT/BU/Classics principles?  

Or is this merely an issue you prefer not to discuss because you rather not acknowledge it? If so, I will happily leave you alone and apologize for upsetting you.

What is there for me to acknowledge? His defence of Bitcoin was, as I said, woolly. It can be read different ways by different people. But at the very least Bitcoin Classic and Bitfury has reached some kind of overlapping consensus on the urgent need for a 2MB hard fork. That announcement was very precise. As long as people agree on the technical implementation they don't need to agree about every little thing or thought regarding Bitcoin.

[Fatman3001]

Where are we at, are people just pretending Toomin-Coin is still happening?

As far as I can see (read) Chinese mining pools have rejected it & shown their support for Core?

Can we add Toomin-Coin to the list of failed take overs?

Any solid links?

[JorgeStolfi]

[Satoshi obviously understands human nature and planned Bitcoin accordingly. One of the mistakes he admitted was offering no reward for running a full node. People still do it with the best interests of the network in mind, but there are decreasing numbers of people prepared to do it for nothing. There would be an order of magnitude more nodes if people were rewarded for running one.

It was no mistake. The concept of a "full but non-mining" relay node is an aberration.  Such nodes are precisely the sort of "trusted intermediaries" that bitcoin was supposed to get rid of.  They do not add anything to the security of the network -- on the contrary, they are a gross violation of the protocol, and a huge security risk.  

What Satoshi called "nodes" were the miners.  Miners were supposed to mine for their own benefit (as users of the network) and for the fees paid by simple clients, who should contact them directly.  Miners have incentives to validate and secure transactions on the blockchain, and serve all clients that pay enough to offset their marginal cost of doing so.  Miners are prevented from defrauding the system by the proof-of-work and most-worked-chain-wins rules.  In constrast, the "full but non-mining" nodes have no financial incentives to be honest, so one shoudl wonder what is their motivation for offering to "help" clients.  There is no way of checking that they actually store or verify anything, so nothing prevents an attacker from cloning thousands of such nodes -- and scamming all clients that happen to talk to only those clones.

"Full but non-mining" relay nodes were invented by bitcoiners who were unable to compete with industrial miners, but still wanted to retain their control over the system, because they felt entitled to it.  Non-mining clients should avoid them, and talk directly to miners (or relays that they cantrust are operated by miners).  The sooner they disappear, the better.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Where are we at, are people just pretending Toomin-Coin is still happening?

As far as I can see (read) Chinese mining pools have rejected it & shown their support for Core?

Can we add Toomin-Coin to the list of failed take overs?

Any solid links?

How to beat Liverpool FC in 2 easy steps:

1. Make them concede a corner.
2. Err... thats it.

I have no idea why that popped into my head. 

[LFC_Bitcoin]

...
Richy - My PC froze with Core open a few weeks ago, I had to reindex the entire blockchain too.

Fucking nightmare.

Thanks, that was hilarious.

Lamby I thought I'd lost some of my bitcoin's bro. It was anything but hilarious (to me).

How to beat Liverpool FC in 2 easy steps:

1. Make them concede a corner.
2. Err... thats it.

I have no idea why that popped into my head. 

This is true ^^

Pain of my life, Simon fucking Mignolet. Useless c**t.

[aztecminer]

Bitcoin as global currency. Locally regulated and exchanged digital currencies will organically emerge. There's your scalability roadmap.

i am not sure how ?? we are still arguing over scalability.. and the argument has become more complex with more versions of bitcoin.. looks more like a big giant clusterfuk .

You don't need to know how. That's how "organic" works. Bitcoin doesn't need to buy every coffee, nor does anyone really need to use it. The blocksize argument is only a short-term adoption solution. Altcoins are the obvious and most popular solution to adoption overall to date. Exchanges have always and will always take Bitcoin. It's just that simple.

this is awesome! we are bitcoin cuz bitcoin.. and we are going to use alt coins to pay for stuff!

[ChartBuddy]

Coin


Explanation

[BitUsher]

What is there for me to acknowledge? His defence of Bitcoin was, as I said, woolly. It can be read different ways by different people. But at the very least Bitcoin Classic and Bitfury has reached some kind of overlapping consensus on the urgent need for a 2MB hard fork. That announcement was very precise. As long as people agree on the technical implementation they don't need to agree about every little thing or thought regarding Bitcoin.

Ok, we either fundamentally disagree with the principles being contradictory or you simply do not want to discuss the details I outlined. I'll respect your position and move on to other topics.

[Satoshi obviously understands human nature and planned Bitcoin accordingly. One of the mistakes he admitted was offering no reward for running a full node. People still do it with the best interests of the network in mind, but there are decreasing numbers of people prepared to do it for nothing. There would be an order of magnitude more nodes if people were rewarded for running one.

Yes, Satoshi made many mistakes despite being a genius, he/she/they are human afterall. Right now the only incentive for running a full node is the extra security it brings . As we know in the wider security world people in general value convenience over security so this isn't enough of an incentive to increase node diversity. One of many things that excites me about the p2p decentralized Lightning network proposal is that it may give us an incentive to bring back more nodes by paying full nodes a portion of the tx fees they facilitate. The right balance would need to be made to incentivize LN nodes and Mining nodes but I believe it can be achieved.

[BitUsher]

This is just too good not to repost...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41vhzz/im_jesse_powell_cofounder_ceo_at_kraken_ama/cz5wznz

So, closest I came to getting hacked:

My email account somehow got included in the Ashley Madison list. Seriously, no idea how that happened! I tell my girlfriend about it to preempt the rage. She says "I thought of a new BIP--Boyfriend Improvement Proposal" me: oh yeah? "yeah--it's called Segregated Penis. What do you think?" me: ... ... I better buy some more hashing power.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

This is just too good not to repost...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41vhzz/im_jesse_powell_cofounder_ceo_at_kraken_ama/cz5wznz

So, closest I came to getting hacked:

My email account somehow got included in the Ashley Madison list. Seriously, no idea how that happened! I tell my girlfriend about it to preempt the rage. She says "I thought of a new BIP--Boyfriend Improvement Proposal" me: oh yeah? "yeah--it's called Segregated Penis. What do you think?" me: ... ... I better buy some more hashing power.

Thats good, but this is better:

If there were a sustained hard fork, we would support both coins. I think this is extremely unlikely to happen, however, as it would require > 75% of the miners to agree to it. The other 25% mining the old chain would be in a very weak state and would quickly switch rather than risk being attacked by the other guys.

[madmat]

Where are we at, are people just pretending Toomin-Coin is still happening?

As far as I can see (read) Chinese mining pools have rejected it & shown their support for Core?

Can we add Toomin-Coin to the list of failed take overs?

Chinese mining doesn't reject Classic. This is just FUD from C0re people.

[Fatman3001]

What is there for me to acknowledge? His defence of Bitcoin was, as I said, woolly. It can be read different ways by different people. But at the very least Bitcoin Classic and Bitfury has reached some kind of overlapping consensus on the urgent need for a 2MB hard fork. That announcement was very precise. As long as people agree on the technical implementation they don't need to agree about every little thing or thought regarding Bitcoin.

Ok, we either fundamentally disagree with the principles being contradictory or you simply do not want to discuss the details I outlined. I'll respect your position and move on to other topics.

This whole thing started with you wanting Bitfury to be classified as "neutral" when they clearly aren't. I pointed this out and you started pushing me on the internal consistency of Bitfury's decision. Although I guess this can be debated from here to the Himalayas, I don't see how this will change the fact that Bitfury has publicly announced that they will pursue a 2MB block size with Bitcoin Classic.

[Fatman3001]

Where are we at, are people just pretending Toomin-Coin is still happening?

As far as I can see (read) Chinese mining pools have rejected it & shown their support for Core?

Can we add Toomin-Coin to the list of failed take overs?

Chinese mining doesn't rejected Classic. This is just FUD from C0re people.

Good to hear from you! I've found nothing of substance in this regard. Can you definitively deny that there is something to this rumour?

[BitUsher]

If there were a sustained hard fork, we would support both coins. I think this is extremely unlikely to happen, however, as it would require > 75% of the miners to agree to it. The other 25% mining the old chain would be in a very weak state and would quickly switch rather than risk being attacked by the other guys.

I don't know ... After some consideration I am more sympathetic to Guy Corem's position that competing coins post fork would be great . I would likely buy many GPU's and BTC Core coins as well with an ASICproof algo behind the coin.

http://pastebin.com/B8YQr5TQ

Both coins will surely take a large beating initially, but one would become more decentralized and one more corporate over time. In a way I am somewhat disappointed that the Chinese miners appear to be getting behind core. I may have to switch sides temporarily and support classic to insure this split happens for the good of the ecosystem.

[AlexGR]

This is just too good not to repost...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41vhzz/im_jesse_powell_cofounder_ceo_at_kraken_ama/cz5wznz

So, closest I came to getting hacked:

My email account somehow got included in the Ashley Madison list. Seriously, no idea how that happened! I tell my girlfriend about it to preempt the rage. She says "I thought of a new BIP--Boyfriend Improvement Proposal" me: oh yeah? "yeah--it's called Segregated Penis. What do you think?" me: ... ... I better buy some more hashing power.

Thats good, but this is better:

If there were a sustained hard fork, we would support both coins. I think this is extremely unlikely to happen, however, as it would require > 75% of the miners to agree to it. The other 25% mining the old chain would be in a very weak state and would quickly switch rather than risk being attacked by the other guys.

That part aint very reassuring though:

"We'd have to see how it goes.. maybe we would give people the option to choose their chain, or automatically put them on to one or the other if no action is taken by a certain date."

To sum it up: In the possibility of a hard fork, pull your coins way ahead of time to be sure 100%, with no "we'll see", "maybe", "or", etc. Ahead of time is crucial in case anyone is running a fractional reserve scheme and you want to avoid getting cryptsied in the process with all possible obstacles being thrown your way. That's how bank runs work. First ones get money those late at the bank get nothing.

[madmat]

Where are we at, are people just pretending Toomin-Coin is still happening?

As far as I can see (read) Chinese mining pools have rejected it & shown their support for Core?

Can we add Toomin-Coin to the list of failed take overs?

Chinese mining doesn't rejected Classic. This is just FUD from C0re people.

Good to hear from you! I've found nothing of substance in this regard. Can you definitively deny that there is something to this rumour?

I think this is a bit part of it : https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41zitw/aaron_van_wirdum_on_twitter_confirmed_chinese/

[JorgeStolfi]

I don't believe you have really thought things through with regards to the possible attack vectors that large btc holders can have.

Why would the big holders want to attack one of the chains?  Their holdings are in both chains, and they can keep, move and sell them independently.   Whatever value each branch of the coin has, attacking one branch will kill its value -- which will hurt the holders more than anyone else -- but is unlikely to raise the value of the other branch by the same amount.  

The holders should *pray* that a proposed hard fork will EITHER fail quickly to gather any support, OR quickly achieve majority support and end with a clean non-eventful hard fork.  Any fork attempt that does not resolve cleanly in one of these two ways can only harm the value of their holdings.

If the worst happens, and there is a disputed fork attempt that ends with a coin split (which, in a hard fork with 75% trigger, is VERY unlikely to happen), the best strategy for holders is to keep quiet and wait for the market to define the values of the two branches.  If one of them is quickly dropping to zero, they should dump what they can of it, and then just use the other -- in which case the situation will be the same as after a clean successful fork or clean failed fork, only with bombed buildings all over the place.  If, by some miracle, both branches retain some value, and they seem fairly stable, the holders should keep and use both, or SLOWLY sell the one they don't like to buy more of the other.  

The ONLY bitcoiners who want Core to be the only implementation are the Blockstream people, because their business plans require them having control over the protcol (to add changes that they need, like SegWit, but block changes that their competitors want, like raising the limit).   For all other players, a switch to Classic would be indifferent or better.

Unfortunately, the biggest Western mining pool – BitFury - did not respond to CoinTelegraph's inquiry regarding the block size limit. According to Bitcoin Core developer Jeff Garzik, however, the Dutch-American pool that accounts for some 13% of hash power on the Bitcoin network

Is that right? AFAIK BitFury is based in Ukraine and Georgia, but may have mines in Iceland or other places.

Perhaps the reporter thought that Georgia was the US state?  (Frankly, the US should get rid of the latter.  Their students have enough trouble already with Iran/Iraq, Sweden/Switzerland, Austria/Australia...)

[JorgeStolfi]

Meeting core this weekend to do what?

Why the surprise?  Blockstream naturally is using every means that they can to kill Classic and retain control of the protocol.  If FUD doesn't suffice, there are bribes, threats, intrigue, etc.