Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[bargainbin]

we can all use paypal as a "temporary off-chain solution", ok?

I understand that some may resent Brian for his recent trolling on twitter and thoughtless remarks, but I won't hold it against him. The reality is these off the chain solutions provide a temporary and valuable service to our community and new users are better at onramping onto them before they learn about the complexities of our ecosystem.

We don't want millions of new users simply downloading electrum and flooding our ecosystem with questions and mistakes and losing their passwords, forgetting to backup their wallets, ect... This would not only be a PR disaster but also create a negative impression of bitcoin that will make them think twice about using it for a long while.

In light of recent publicity, I don't think we need to worry about "millions of new users simply downloading electrum and flooding our ecosystem with questions and mistakes and losing their passwords, forgetting to backup their wallets, ect..." all that much.
We're relatively safe.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

You're serious?
I mean if you are, then seems like you have a very "elite" perception of cryptocurrencies...

He is being sarcastic and in the camp of lets blow up capacity as much as possible and dump all the spam on the main chain regardless of the consequences because I am impatient and want bitcoin to compete with visa Immediately , regardless of the consequences.

In reality we don't have to choose between either. There is a false dichotomy being painted.

Bitcoin already has a temporary surplus capacity with insured and regulated off the chain solutions for all those influx of new users like coinbase / circle/ and other exchanges... If a fee market starts to build up that will drive some of the spam off the network , encourage some new users to use off the chain solutions instead, and spur some innovation in use of payment channels like what 21 introduced.

The sky isn't falling. Bitcoin can take on much more overnight without any issues.
 

I'm in the small blocks camp now. Ask around. I'm legit.

[bargainbin]

... onramp services like circle and coinbase are well suited to fill this role as they have better support, and handle the complex security for the clients, and the clients have to buy the bitcoins from them anyways so may as well setup a temporary wallet with them too.

TL;DR: P2P cash needs banks middlemen. Now more than ever
"Thus the Bitcoin dream turned belly up, turned green, bobbed to the scummy surface of cupidity unlimited, filled with gas, went bang in the noonday sun.” --Brainyquote.com

[Ibian]

So what if some people want to use exchanges or circles to hold their money instead of proper wallets. That doesn't make our money any more vulnerable.

[hdbuck]

So what if some people want to use exchanges or circles to hold their money instead of proper wallets. That doesn't make our money any more vulnerable.

Ask Mark Karpeles.

[BitUsher]

***Sigh*** ... no wonder this discussion has been so "complicated"
Some are still under the misapprehension that miners are the ones who vote on the direction of bitcoin and "make the final call"

https://twitter.com/olivierjanss/status/700325846532362241

If this were true it would defeat the whole raison d'être of bitcoin in the first place and only would apply if we still were all mining on cpu's... when those days are long over. Economic Nodes now have a stake in the game and the power dynamics are split and a dynamic inter-relationship between miners, users, devs, exchanges/processors, and  merchants.

We need better educational materials to inform the confused... or perhaps we may learn the hard way with a contentious HF and many people learning that even one person has the right and ability to fork the chain at any given moment with or without the miners.  

There are many devs that will support the alternative chain as well -

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/700316802853634048

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/700317058102226944

[billyjoeallen]

EVERYONE wants bigger blocks, except for these guys, and it's not because they are all knowing gods and know what's best for us. there are many poeple that understand the nitty gritty details who agree bigger blocks is safe.

From what I saw it seems like bigger block is at least canted by all users. It's the miners who don't want it?

the chinese miner, along with everyone else, were ready for 8MB.

the block size increase has been pushed back for one reason alone, the core dev team deems it unsafe.

who am i to disagree? i'm no one...

but gavin isn't no one, and fucking big chunks of hashing power isn't no one either....


CORE MUST DIE!
they forced our hand, it's them or us....

You are saying two contradictory things. Core wont cave or lose and the miners won't switch if people are still buying bitcoin. So knock off the "BUY BUY BUY!" shit until we get this resolved or it won't get resolved.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

So what if some people want to use exchanges or circles to hold their money instead of proper wallets. That doesn't make our money any more vulnerable.

Google MtGox & you may change your thinking. Seriously you're a Hero Member coming out with shit like this?

[BitUsher]

So what if some people want to use exchanges or circles to hold their money instead of proper wallets. That doesn't make our money any more vulnerable.

Ask Mark Karpeles.

While I typically advice people to avoid using off the chain solutions and centralized bitcoin banks, it isn't fair to compare Mtgox to Coinbase and circle. There is a world of difference between the two... and it isn't irresponsible for new users to temporarily use these services while they learn about bitcoin. You have to weigh risks , and a new user has far more risk at losing their btc with a personal mistake, technical problem or virus than the risks inherent with a regulated and insured institution where their largest risk is capital gains taxes theft.

New users should just be made aware of the tradeoffs.

You are saying two contradictory things. Core wont cave or lose and the miners won't switch if people are still buying bitcoin. So knock off the "BUY BUY BUY!" shit until we get this resolved or it won't get resolved.

Sorry to burst your shorts , I'm buying more and encouraging others to jump on this train , now....Buy, Buy, Buy!(all of which uses 0 tx's of capacity from most orders)

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[hdbuck]

So what if some people want to use exchanges or circles to hold their money instead of proper wallets. That doesn't make our money any more vulnerable.

Google MtGox & you may change your thinking. Seriously you're a Hero Member coming out with shit like this?

i dont even..

[molecular]

we can all use paypal as a "temporary off-chain solution", ok?

I understand that some may resent Brian for his recent trolling on twitter and thoughtless remarks, but I won't hold it against him. The reality is these off the chain solutions provide a temporary and valuable service to our community and new users are better at onramping onto them before they learn about the complexities of our ecosystem.

We don't want millions of new users simply downloading electrum and flooding our ecosystem with questions and mistakes and losing their passwords, forgetting to backup their wallets, ect... This would not only be a PR disaster but also create a negative impression of bitcoin that will make them think twice about using it for a long while.

You have to try and empathize with the mind of a new user being introduced to bitcoin and understand that many need to take incremental steps in learning and using it... onramp services like circle and coinbase are well suited to fill this role as they have better support, and handle the complex security for the clients, and the clients have to buy the bitcoins from them anyways so may as well setup a temporary wallet with them too.

They might run fractional reserve schemes at some point. Those will blow up like gox. We've seen the "PR disaster" and "negative impression" of that already.

Wallets are getting easier and safer to use every year. Unless we make everything more complex by introducing uneccessary features like RBF they can well be used by "normal people".

I'd rather have my dad use a trezor than coinbase.

[BitUsher]

They might run fractional reserve schemes at some point. Those will blow up like gox. We've seen the "PR disaster" and "negative impression" of that already.

Wallets are getting easier and safer to use every year. Unless we make everything more complex by introducing uneccessary features like RBF they can well be used by "normal people".

I'd rather have my dad use a trezor than coinbase.

These are fair concerns although far more unlikely than Mtgox if you understand how thorough VC investors are with their due diligence , and reasons why we should educate new users to quickly switch to a hardware wallet after on ramping. It really doesn't address my point that these companies provide a valuable service and can buffer any influx of new users. You aren't advocating that we tell non -technical people who are completely new to bitcoin to immediately buy a hardware wallet and meet some stranger in local bitcoins instead are you. Its one thing helping out a family member and giving free 1 on 1 support , but what about all the new users that doesn't have this option?

Buying coins on Coinbase or Circle does not add to tx bloat on the main chain for every purchase. We can have millions of new users onramped overnight without any problems whatsoever.

The irony is Coinbase and circle have mixed incentives to go with a conservative approach and aggressive on the chain approach. In one sense they would temporarily benefit from an influx of new users choosing free tx's and using their wallet to buy btc , on the otherhand they must fear the long term implications p2p decentralized on the chain payment channels pose their centralized wallets ... They really don't want to compete with every node as another payment channel. This is why there is so much desperation in Brain's tweets despite how silly it makes him sound.... he has some legitimate concerns for the longterm profitability of his company. I believe he needs to slowly evolve and offer different services :I.E...  bitcoin atms,  insured and specialty payment channels, consultancy services, business software solutions, ect...

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Things I honestly believe:
There’s no obvious incentive for people to run nodes. Given their importance, we should do everything we can to limit the disincentives.
Not every micro-transaction requires the full benefit of being on-chain.
Some of the most vocal core developers are kind of jerks.

[bargainbin]

...
I'd rather have my dad use a trezor than coinbase.

The thought of my dad using a Trezor or Coinbase -- either one -- unsettles me a bit.
On par with imagining him scoring crack. At 2a.m. In the projects...

[Paashaas]

Burger King (Arnhem, The Netherlands) accepts Bitcoin payments! To celebrate the 100-retailer milestone, a mystery event will be held at Burger King Arnhem tomorrow evening.

I dont live near Arnhem but it's worth the trip to buy a hamburger menu with Bitcoin 

http://bitcoinist.net/burger-king-arnhem-now-accepts-bitcoin-payments

Looks like I'm moving to Arnhem then.

Do you live in Holland? It's about 100km from my town to Arnhem, i got plans to visit Burger King the comming ore next weekend. ( i skip that "mystery event'').

[bargainbin]

Rejoice!
Third Classic Block (399024) mined

[billyjoeallen]

While I typically advice people to avoid using off the chain solutions and centralized bitcoin banks, it isn't fair to compare Mtgox to Coinbase and circle. There is a world of difference between the two... and it isn't irresponsible for new users to temporarily use these services while they learn about bitcoin. You have to weigh risks , and a new user has far more risk at losing their btc with a personal mistake, technical problem or virus than the risks inherent with a regulated and insured institution where their largest risk is capital gains taxes theft.

New users should just be made aware of the tradeoffs.

I hear what you're saying, but in a way they are like Gox, except more professional and honest. If you don't hold the private keys, you don't own Bitcoin.  Bitshares is partnering in a decentralized exchange, so it is possible. I just would like to see some with anywhere close to the volume of Stamp or BFX.

Ideally we want an ecosystem so robust that fiat isn't the main onramp, but rather businesses trading goods and services for coin. There is no way to do that however without a meaningful fix to the scaling problem that doesn't involve third party middlemen.  If we need middlemen, then there is no point to this whole experiment. It is a failure.

Don't worry about my short. I have posted extra margin, so you can't blow it up without making me a lot more on my cold storage stash.

[Fatman3001]

Burger King (Arnhem, The Netherlands) accepts Bitcoin payments! To celebrate the 100-retailer milestone, a mystery event will be held at Burger King Arnhem tomorrow evening.

I dont live near Arnhem but it's worth the trip to buy a hamburger menu with Bitcoin 

http://bitcoinist.net/burger-king-arnhem-now-accepts-bitcoin-payments

Looks like I'm moving to Arnhem then.

Do you live in Holland? It's about 100km from my town to Arnhem, i got plans to visit Burger King the comming ore next weekend. ( i skip that "mystery event'').

No, but I like burgers. I am very fat you see.

[BitUsher]

Don't worry about my short. I have posted extra margin, so you can't blow it up without making me a lot more on my cold storage stash.

That is an interesting way to think about it.... but doesn't take into account the leveraged losses and income loss potential from merely just holding, but don't worry, you keep posting your shorts and I'll keep buying up your coins.

Ideally we want an ecosystem so robust that fiat isn't the main onramp, but rather businesses trading goods and services for coin. There is no way to do that however without a meaningful fix to the scaling problem that doesn't involve third party middlemen.  If we need middlemen, then there is no point to this whole experiment. It is a failure.

That is a nice thought , and one that I can get behind , but is unrealistic in the short term. There needs to be a transitional period where fiat leaks into bitcoin before bitcoin becomes so ubiquitous that the USD / Euro merely becomes a foreign currency ... and we are no where close to that moment.