Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This reminds me of mutual assured destruction. I used think that was the height of human folly...
Now I think it's some kind of game theoretical inevitability.

[adamstgBit]

How do you think strikes work?
Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time."
Step3: Profit  

miners dont need to Grind BTC to a halt to get what they want
if they have the power to Grind BTC to a halt they have the power to fork it which ever way they want too.
also i forget, what is it the minners want in the hypothetical scenario ?

[Fatman3001]

https://petertodd.org/2016/btcc-funding

14 billable hours a month ... such devving, much coding!

get a grip fatso

...?

So, according to your statement he's working (14h x 6 months = ) 84h for less than "a milliBitcoin"?

With your way with numbers I can understand why the block size issue sounds a bit weird.

[respawn2]

1. Fair point, but rushing things and springing them on the confused node operator or investor isn't the best idea either.

What I'm saying is that unless Core has both production code and hangars full of GPUs ready to go online, miners could grind the network to a halt. This is how you get ants.

2. Nah, that would just serve promote a sense of injustice and tyranny they have no interest in promoting. Clear communication, plenty of time for node operators to upgrade would accomplish much more. No need to fight dirty if you have the backing of the market.

Have tx fee increases  promoted a sense of injustice and tyranny in the past? Do people see the miners as their friends, not businessmen looking to maximize their profits?
The miners may well be everyone's friends, doing it for the community etc., but I'm trying to walk through plausible adversarial scenarios, where each party plays to maximize their rational self-interest win.

[marcus_of_augustus]

^^ I think I spend about 14 billable hours a month going to the toilet ... maybe I should send the bill to Jihan to make him feel more involved?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

@Fatty
Bitcoin has lots of seemingly arbitrary protocol rules built into it. No one is supposed to be able to change these. What makes the block size such a hot topic? Is it because it's the most kludgy

[marcus_of_augustus]

The only people who 'win' in bitcoin are the ones who stfu and do stuff ... those who decided it was in their interests to talk instead of doing have lost ... e.g. Mike Hearn, Gavin Andresen, Brian Arsstrong, etc, etc

[dumbfbrankings]

1. Fair point, but rushing things and springing them on the confused node operator or investor isn't the best idea either.

What I'm saying is that unless Core has both production code and hangars full of GPUs ready to go online, miners could grind the network to a halt. This is how you get ants.

They would reset the difficulty and there are plenty of shitcoin mining GPU's that would hop over for some fun. This isn't about numbers for them, it's about ideology...

2. Nah, that would just serve promote a sense of injustice and tyranny they have no interest in promoting. Clear communication, plenty of time for node operators to upgrade would accomplish much more. No need to fight dirty if you have the backing of the market.

Have tx fee increases  promoted a sense of injustice and tyranny in the past? Do people see the miners as their friends, not businessmen looking to maximize their profits?
The miners may well be everyone's friends, doing it for the community etc., but I'm trying to walk through plausible adversarial scenarios, where each party plays to maximize their rational self-interest win.

It's not a good idea to spit on your customers... simple as that I think. They will raise fees maybe in the sense of delaying segwit... but arbitrarily giving the finger to users... sounds like a good way to bolster the 1MB altcoin that wants the crown.

[respawn2]

How do you think strikes work?
Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time."
Step3: Profit  

miners dont need to Grind BTC to a halt to get what they want
if they have the power to Grind BTC to a halt they have the power to fork it which ever way they want too.
also i forget, what is it the minners want in the hypothetical scenario ?

The miners don't need to, but they *could* grind the network to a halt. That's bargaining power, what gives a threat credibility. Because bargaining from weakness isn't bargaining, it's begging. It's nowhere near as good as bargaining from strengths.

>what is it the minners want in the hypothetical scenario ?
The miners want to make as much money as they can. If that means cutting Blockstream out, so be it.
But I'm sure they also want some getback. I would, if I got punked by private individuals who are totally not core lulz!
Wouldn't you?

[respawn2]

^^ I think I spend about 14 billable hours a month going to the toilet ... maybe I should send the bill to Jihan to make him feel more involved?

It was your finest work, you totally should.

The only people who 'win' in bitcoin are the ones who stfu and do stuff ...

Nice chatting with you, loser?

[DaRude]

Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?

You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun.

This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep.
Really.
And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike."

Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward).

Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: ??
Step3: Profit  

Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere

How do you think strikes work?
Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time."
Step3: Profit  

You're delusional or trolling if you think this will work. I'm speculation that majority of miners are also hodler, what will that do to the price of BTC and their investment? Good luck trying to find idiots to sign up to that. Here's a shovel start digging your own graves for the greater good  

[travwill]

Man, so the US markets are breaking a new high every day for the last 8 days.  I see the equities doing so strong that BTC isn't as attractive, that can't last and seems like bubble territory in the stock market right now.

This combined with the Japanese probably announcing a 20 trillion Yen stimulus, like 180 Billion USD I think, should really send BTC at least somewhat hire for those not wanting to hold on to the surely devalued Yen.

[adamstgBit]

How do you think strikes work?
Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time."
Step3: Profit  

miners dont need to Grind BTC to a halt to get what they want
if they have the power to Grind BTC to a halt they have the power to fork it which ever way they want too.
also i forget, what is it the minners want in the hypothetical scenario ?

The miners don't need to, but they *could* grind the network to a halt. That's bargaining power, what gives a threat credibility. Because bargaining from weakness isn't bargaining, it's begging. It's nowhere near as good as bargaining from strengths.

>what is it the minners want in the hypothetical scenario ?
The miners want to make as much money as they can. If that means cutting Blockstream out, so be it.
But I'm sure they also want some getback. I would, if I got punked by private individuals who are totally not core lulz!
Wouldn't you?

oh ic

ya no they won't bring bitcoin to a halt

they will write a little memo to the community

somthing like

" core proposes to undermine our long term sustainability by first limiting precious BTC TX fees, and then diverting the TX fees to there STILL non existent LN, so we are no longer running core software or supporting their efforts.
"

and then the community will rejoice as they be delivered from the evil grips of core's tyranny.

[respawn2]

1. Fair point, but rushing things and springing them on the confused node operator or investor isn't the best idea either.

What I'm saying is that unless Core has both production code and hangars full of GPUs ready to go online, miners could grind the network to a halt. This is how you get ants.

They would reset the difficulty and there are plenty of shitcoin mining GPU's that would hop over for some fun. This isn't about numbers for them, it's about ideology...

Sure they will reset the difficulty, but GPU miners aren't the Salvation Army, they're mercenary. If forking the shit out of BTC is what pays, that's what they'll do. And it sure will take more than a few hours to deploy a meaningful number of GPU farms to prevent this from happening, GPUs aren't sitting around waiting for the goahead from Core.
That's why countries have standing armies, who do nothing but eat and shit 99% of the time. For times like this.

2. Nah, that would just serve promote a sense of injustice and tyranny they have no interest in promoting. Clear communication, plenty of time for node operators to upgrade would accomplish much more. No need to fight dirty if you have the backing of the market.

Have tx fee increases  promoted a sense of injustice and tyranny in the past? Do people see the miners as their friends, not businessmen looking to maximize their profits?
The miners may well be everyone's friends, doing it for the community etc., but I'm trying to walk through plausible adversarial scenarios, where each party plays to maximize their rational self-interest win.

It's not a good idea to spit on your customers... simple as that I think. They will raise fees maybe in the sense of delaying segwit... but arbitrarily giving the finger to users... sounds like a good way to bolster the 1MB altcoin that wants the crown.

Is there something more than Miss Manners that stands in the way of (2)?
I keep hearing stuff like "it's not nice, be nice" in one ear, and blood-curdling screams of the robbed/buttraped in the other. So having a hard time figuring out if this is a family/friends or a business/let's make some money type of a setup.

How can my "customers" (assuming you mean BTC holders and not exchanges) make an iota of difference here? Why would I care if you have a million BTC in a paper wallet buried under a bird bath?
This is all hypothetical, of course, because I'm really passionate about supporting the Bitcoin community and you just can't put a price on something like that. Because it's priceless.

[r0ach]

Man, so the US markets are breaking a new high every day for the last 8 days.  I see the equities doing so strong that BTC isn't as attractive, that can't last and seems like bubble territory in the stock market right now.

I suspect the markets will be propped up for the jewish bankers to try and get their Hillary Clinton sockpuppet into office.  If the markets were tanking while she's running on Obama's legacy, it wouldn't look very good.  When/if Trump wins, I assume they will crash the market like 1 month after he steps into office and try to blame it on him.  Or maybe they will pull the plug and crash the stock market the second they see Hillary can't win.

[respawn2]

Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?

You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun.

This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep.
Really.
And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike."

Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward).

Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: ??
Step3: Profit  

Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere

How do you think strikes work?
Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop
Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time."
Step3: Profit  

You're delusional or trolling if you think this will work.

Let's try to be civil. I'm not gonna call you a faggot and you're not going to call me delusional or a troll. Shall we give that a try and see how it goes?

I'm speculation that majority of miners are also hodler, what will that do to the price of BTC and their investment?

What makes you think that most miners are hodlers? Do you think the guy who works at the gas station is also a gasoline aficionado, and spends his paychecks on 55-gal drums of Premium?

Good luck trying to find idiots to sign up to that. Here's a shovel start digging your own graves for the greater good  

Remember what I said about acting civil?

[adamstgBit]

respawn2  click -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389955.0

you might enjoy the read

[respawn2]

respawn2  click -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389955.0

you might enjoy the read

A blazz from da pazz.
Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not some Miner's Union organizer. Just trying to figure out how things can play out: what's probable, what's possible, and what's not. Like playing chess if you ain't got the book learnin', "if I go here, then he can, but then I." that sort of thing.

P.S. think we're due for a matching uptick to maybe 70, before going below 60?

[adamstgBit]

respawn2  click -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389955.0

you might enjoy the read

A blazz from da pazz.
Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not some Miner's Union organizer. Just trying to figure out how things can play out: what's probable, what's possible, and what's not. Like playing chess if you ain't got the book learnin', "if I go here, then he can, but then I." that sort of thing.

i just want core to burn...

[marcus_of_augustus]

respawn2  click -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389955.0

you might enjoy the read

he wont be reading anything, it's just lambchop trolling up the good old faithful blocksize fracas FUD to go with their pathetic short attack for some cheap coins now they've cashed out of dead-in-the-water ethereum longs ... looks like stirring up 'miner panic' is the target here, probably Jihan paying them