Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Hawker]

why do people use gox anyway?

liquidity.

its good for people who want to dump 10,000 btc at once sure, but for the guy who has 500?

much better options out there.

Generally the prices are higher on mtgox so its the best place for miners to sell stock.

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[crumbcake]

why do people use gox anyway?

liquidity.

its good for people who want to dump 10,000 btc at once sure, but for the guy who has 500?

much better options out there.

Generally the prices are higher on mtgox so its the best place for miners to sell stock.

Another noob question:  Why is Mt.Gox<->BTC-e price difference so great?  Obviously something's making arbitrage unprofitable, but what? What would the total transaction costs be for Mt.GoxBTC -> BTC-eBTC->BTC-e $ -> Mt.Gox $?  edit: forgot the final ->Mt.GoxBTC

[ChartBuddy]

[Its About Sharing]

No. The price is stable as all poor souls locked with FIAT in MtGox try to buy BTC a get the hell out of MtGox ASAP. And Mr. Karpeles' silence just worsens this.

And no, there are not many options left. International wire is quite expensive, SEPA takes several weeks to finish. So many just buy BTC as soon as it lowers a bit. Thats what you call "stability".

I think we are complicating things here, by "we" I mean you and a few others judging the severity of the DHS news.
First, regarding "not many options left" - that is just no longer true. MtGox is no longer the center of the BTC universe, though it is still too large. This news will actually help level things and probably open other doors.

Second, stability is a ways off. We are just starting the "government/banking" journey. This news was NOTHING. Really, they aren't even going after BTC. The reason being, there are no laws which allow them to do so. Governments at this stage are afraid to, and actually don't have a clue, as what to even define BTC as. I'm afraid, for them, it is just like Internet PII. They will just be too slow to react. The only thing they can hope for is to somewhat regulate it. The banks will push for that to a point. But, we are just too small to do much about. Stopping it, being that the world will likely support it (all the while having a float of less than 11 million BTC's) is not really an option at this point. It will continue to be attractive to too many people unhappy with the state of things.

Just look at the slowness of things. And, again, they are not even attacking BTC (maybe with words) but they are just making sure regulations are being followed. And the Dwolla Gox thing is really really gray. I mean MtGox spent, what? 25 million getting things in order in the last year for this? This screams of either being overblown or too little too late.

Anything is still possible, but unless the internet gets shut down or the like, we probably continue for months if not years before we see what can amount to anything huge. And by that time we will probably be too well established imo.

[prof7bit]

Another noob question:  Why is Mt.Gox<->BTC-e price difference so great?  Obviously something's making arbitrage unprofitable, but what?

From what I have read the arbitragers were using dwolla to transfer between MtGox and BTC-e

[michaelGedi]

No. The price is stable as all poor souls locked with FIAT in MtGox try to buy BTC a get the hell out of MtGox ASAP. And Mr. Karpeles' silence just worsens this.

And no, there are not many options left. International wire is quite expensive, SEPA takes several weeks to finish. So many just buy BTC as soon as it lowers a bit. Thats what you call "stability".

I think we are complicating things here, by "we" I mean you and a few others judging the severity of the DHS news.
First, regarding "not many options left" - that is just no longer true. MtGox is no longer the center of the BTC universe, though it is still too large. This news will actually help level things and probably open other doors.

Second, stability is a ways off. We are just starting the "government/banking" journey. This news was NOTHING. Really, they aren't even going after BTC. The reason being, there are no laws which allow them to do so. Governments at this stage are afraid to, and actually don't have a clue, as what to even define BTC as. I'm afraid, for them, it is just like Internet PII. They will just be too slow to react. The only thing they can hope for is to somewhat regulate it. The banks will push for that to a point. But, we are just too small to to much about. Stopping it, being that the world will likely support it (all the while having a float of less than 11 million BTC's) is not really an option at this point. It will continue to be attractive to too many people unhappy with the state of things.

Just look at the slowness of things. And, again, they are not even attacking BTC (maybe with words) but they are just making sure regulations are being followed. And the Dwolla Gox thing is really really gray. I mean MtGox spent, what? 25 million getting things in order in the last year for this? This screams of either being overblown or too little too late.

Anything is still possible, but unless the internet gets shut down or the like, we probably continue for months if not years before we see what can amount to anything huge. And by that time we will probably be too well established imo.

+1

yep, and if there is one thing I've learnt from spending too much time in the speculation forum, it's that this subgroup of bitcoiners are WAY too sensitive to news about bitcoin, positive or negative and they/we certainly thrive on every little bit of drama and enjoy taking things to extremes. The DHS issue is a grey area in the negative, on the other hand. VC investments and other developments are grey areas in the positive. Nothing is clear cut one way or the other

[michaelGedi]

anyone noticing the perfect bounce along the 114 line for the last 2 hours?

[Coinseeker]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between. 

Not to mention, Bitcoin is becoming a bad word associated with all things criminal much faster than it's becoming some "beacon of light" as it relates to currency.  It's highly volatile, it's clunky, difficult and confusing and it's absolutely vulnerable to far too many variables. Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.  It's attractive to diehards and high risk investors sure, but most of them have no clue what mainstream wants because they are completely out of the loop. 

Bitcoin is like Napster.  It has shown us the way but an "iTunes" is coming to do it right.  My guess is that's Ripple.  They have the advantage of being able to take the high road and separate themselves from the black market, money laundering stigmata that Bitcoin has developed, while still accepting Bitcoin as a currency.  This is good for Bitcoin and it's last gasp at mass adoption.  If the masses are more concerned with low transaction fees and ease of use, than they are having actual stores of wealth, the XRP will reign because an IOU will be sufficient. 

[michaelGedi]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between. 

Not to mention, Bitcoin is becoming a bad word associated with all things criminal much faster than it's becoming some "beacon of light" as it relates to currency.  It's highly volatile, it's clunky, difficult and confusing and it's absolutely vulnerable to far too many variables. Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.  It's attractive to diehards and high risk investors sure, but most of them have no clue what mainstream wants because they are completely out of the loop. 

Bitcoin is like Napster.  It has shown us the way but an "iTunes" is coming to do it right.  My guess is that's Ripple.  They have the advantage of being able to take the high road and separate themselves from the black market, money laundering stigmata that Bitcoin has developed, while still accepting Bitcoin as a currency.  This is good for Bitcoin and it's last gasp at mass adoption.  If the masses are more concerned with low transaction fees and ease of use, than they are having actual stores of wealth, the XRP will reign because an IOU will be sufficient. 

am I right in saying ripple has yet to prove itself in the wild?

Bitcoin on the other hand has a wealth of developers and investments right now working on developing the infrastructure, and the decentralised nature is inherently very important.


on the image issue, I think you are right to a degree, but images can change very quickly. Also if you look at fiat money for a minute, do people not use money because it's "got an image problem"? Because people use it to buy drugs?

[crumbcake]

No. The price is stable as all poor souls locked with FIAT in MtGox try to buy BTC a get the hell out of MtGox ASAP. And Mr. Karpeles' silence just worsens this.

And no, there are not many options left. International wire is quite expensive, SEPA takes several weeks to finish. So many just buy BTC as soon as it lowers a bit. Thats what you call "stability".

...
Just look at the slowness of things. And, again, they are not even attacking BTC (maybe with words) but they are just making sure regulations are being followed. And the Dwolla Gox thing is really really gray. I mean MtGox spent, what? 25 million getting things in order in the last year for this? This screams of either being overblown or too little too late.

Anything is still possible, but unless the internet gets shut down or the like, we probably continue for months if not years before we see what can amount to anything huge. And by that time we will probably be too well established imo.

Perhaps "they" aren't threatened by BTC in itself, but only by its interaction with fiat-based economy?  In other words, if BTC was only traded for goods, its threat would be minimal. At this point, BTC is used primarily as a vehicle for currency speculation, and as such not only devalues fiat, but highlights its intrinsic flaws.  
If that's the case, attacking businesses & institutions engaged in exchange is both simple & logical.

[FNG]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between.  

Seems to be getting more difficult by the day   http://blog.wmtransfer.com/en/blog/wmx-the-new-type-of-title-units#.UZTHFVfcOO4

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1efym7/one_of_russian_biggest_epayment_system_webmoney/

 

[Coinseeker]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between.  

Not to mention, Bitcoin is becoming a bad word associated with all things criminal much faster than it's becoming some "beacon of light" as it relates to currency.  It's highly volatile, it's clunky, difficult and confusing and it's absolutely vulnerable to far too many variables. Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.  It's attractive to diehards and high risk investors sure, but most of them have no clue what mainstream wants because they are completely out of the loop.  

Bitcoin is like Napster.  It has shown us the way but an "iTunes" is coming to do it right.  My guess is that's Ripple.  They have the advantage of being able to take the high road and separate themselves from the black market, money laundering stigmata that Bitcoin has developed, while still accepting Bitcoin as a currency.  This is good for Bitcoin and it's last gasp at mass adoption.  If the masses are more concerned with low transaction fees and ease of use, than they are having actual stores of wealth, the XRP will reign because an IOU will be sufficient.  

am I right in saying ripple has yet to prove itself in the wild?

You're absolutely right.  That's why I said "my guess" because they have to prove it, but if they can deliver what they are "selling" it's going to change everything.  Again, that's my guess.  I don't see anything remotely close to offering what Ripple is claiming to be able to deliver.  And until the server source code is available, we wont know.

Bitcoin on the other hand has a wealth of developers and investments right now working on developing the infrastructure, and the decentralised nature is inherently very important.

I wouldn't use the term "wealth of developers and investments" but there is an increase of VC money.  That honestly means little to me as VC's by nature expect to fail at most of their investments.  I see them as throwing relatively small sums of money into the ring, just in case something takes off.  Even Google Venture only put up a couple hundred grand into Ripple.  That's pocket change.

The BTC developers could never keep up with Ripple development because BTC developers work on what they want, not what the people want.  Ripple is accountable to it's investors and thus must deliver updates and upgrades in a timely fashion.

on the image issue, I think you are right to a degree, but images can change very quickly. Also if you look at fiat money for a minute, do people not use money because it's "got an image problem"? Because people use it to buy drugs?

I don't think the argument that people buy drugs with BTC is a winning argument for exactly what you just said.  But on the grand scale when people think the dollar, they don't think negative thoughts.  They think, "gotta get more".  BTC does not have that advantage.  When the masses think Bitcoin, they think negative because that's all they really hear.   Now you're right, image can absolutely change and I'm all for it.  But who's gonna change it?  The Bitcoin community, which is really just this forum in one way or another?  I'd say if that's the best BTC has, there's no chance.

[ManBearPig]

Incredibly tidy support at $114.00!

[Pzi4nk]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between. 

Not to mention, Bitcoin is becoming a bad word associated with all things criminal much faster than it's becoming some "beacon of light" as it relates to currency.  It's highly volatile, it's clunky, difficult and confusing and it's absolutely vulnerable to far too many variables. Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.  It's attractive to diehards and high risk investors sure, but most of them have no clue what mainstream wants because they are completely out of the loop. 

Bitcoin is like Napster.  It has shown us the way but an "iTunes" is coming to do it right.  My guess is that's Ripple.  They have the advantage of being able to take the high road and separate themselves from the black market, money laundering stigmata that Bitcoin has developed, while still accepting Bitcoin as a currency.  This is good for Bitcoin and it's last gasp at mass adoption.  If the masses are more concerned with low transaction fees and ease of use, than they are having actual stores of wealth, the XRP will reign because an IOU will be sufficient. 

am I right in saying ripple has yet to prove itself in the wild?

Bitcoin on the other hand has a wealth of developers and investments right now working on developing the infrastructure, and the decentralised nature is inherently very important.


on the image issue, I think you are right to a degree, but images can change very quickly. Also if you look at fiat money for a minute, do people not use money because it's "got an image problem"? Because people use it to buy drugs?

I agree with MichaelGedi, image can change. It seem every new technology has been used to satisfy base pleasures and satisfy our carnal desires, from photography and the telephone to craigslist, twitter and the internet itself. All these things were used for things people shudder at, yet they have persisted because they proved their usefulness.

[jski]

Another noob question:  Why is Mt.Gox<->BTC-e price difference so great?  Obviously something's making arbitrage unprofitable, but what?

From what I have read the arbitragers were using dwolla to transfer between MtGox and BTC-e

They were using BitInstant until recently BitInstant has temporarily halted transfers to BTC-e.

[Coinseeker]

Incredibly tidy support at $114.00!

Tidy is a great word to describe that.  Wow! 

[Its About Sharing]

You overestimate the negative sentiment the masses have on financial institutions and governments.  Yes, everybody complains but most are content with what they have.  It's certainly not so drastic that people will go through the incredibly difficult processes of setting up wallets, getting money into the system, buying BTC and then finding a way to spend them, which we know are far and few between. 

Most are not content. How could you ever make a statement like that? We are in the top 5% or so of the world, right? I mean just being here and on a computer. And many of us, if not most, see the disparity of wealth. I'm afraid you are missing the point of BTC. You often speak of it in terms of "investing". It is a movement. It is a symbol. It is a statement. It may flop, but the seed has been planted and that is in part, why I "donate" to the cause. There is no failing in setting precident. This isn't about making money. It is about making change.

Remember in the days of AOL CD's all over the place? I was an IT guy back then and thought "Who the heck needs help setting up an account? What a joke? It is easy!" But see, we are the techy's (here). We are the leaders/early followers. We are just laying the foundation. We are analagously in the stage of going from a command line internet search (our clunky wallets) and going to Netscape Navigator (nice and easy to use wallets). Don't lose sight of the forest by staring at the tree too closely.

Not to mention, Bitcoin is becoming a bad word associated with all things criminal much faster than it's becoming some "beacon of light" as it relates to currency.  It's highly volatile, it's clunky, difficult and confusing and it's absolutely vulnerable to far too many variables. Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.  It's attractive to diehards and high risk investors sure, but most of them have no clue what mainstream wants because they are completely out of the loop. 

Wars with words has been "their" norm. The "War on Drugs", "War on Terror", etc. But, we are collectively waking up. Associate all you like. We are waking up. It comes down to prosectution and laws and as you can see, they are trying to pull an Al Capone on us. They can't catch us, not legally anyway, so they are going for the regulations. But, most exchanges will follow regulations. VC's will start new ones that will. It will be a huge snowball effect. They are just helping us to be legit.

Bitcoin is like Napster.  It has shown us the way but an "iTunes" is coming to do it right.  My guess is that's Ripple.  They have the advantage of being able to take the high road and separate themselves from the black market, money laundering stigmata that Bitcoin has developed, while still accepting Bitcoin as a currency.  This is good for Bitcoin and it's last gasp at mass adoption.  If the masses are more concerned with low transaction fees and ease of use, than they are having actual stores of wealth, the XRP will reign because an IOU will be sufficient. 

Bitcoin is like torrent. Money is like Napster. Do I have to hold your hand with these basic observations. Again, this is why I see you as being manipulative. Your ability to communicate and what you say are at two different levels. It is easy to dissect your purpose here. I'm just making it easier for others to see what you are.

Overall, you are one of the most negative and fearful posters on this board. I see nothing in the way of an open mind. So, I imagine all of this is a challenge to your reality set. It sounds like being correct is more important to you than helping life to continue here on Earth. Being right is more important than taking a chance and making a statement. Sitting there watching everyone dance while you remain in shackles must be tough. But it's never too late to get up. Maybe we can't dance well, but we are trying. We are going forward, with or without you.

Dream, take a chance, do what is right, get away from the darkness and fear.

IAS

[fitty]

Image is everything and Bitcoin is losing that battle.

You've been here 3 weeks. Yesterday you informed us Bitcoin was illegal in almost every country. You've stopped quoting the Coinage Act of 1965? There's a reason your wife only let you buy 1.5 BTC, you're autistic and prone to wild flights of fancy.

You think this bump in the road is bad? Of course you do, you've been here 3 weeks. This was nothing.

My favorite Bitcoin growing pain was back in 2011 when Something Awful hacked the forum and trolled us with CosbyCoin. I suggest you slow down a little, stop educating us on how Bitcoin, Bitcoin PR, legal system, and life in general work. Take some notes, you'll learn a few things. Get back to us in a few months.

[DougTanner]

Fairly stable again.

[crumbcake]

...
on the image issue, I think you are right to a degree, but images can change very quickly. Also if you look at fiat money for a minute, do people not use money because it's "got an image problem"? Because people use it to buy drugs?

If the only notable players in the fiat economy were drug dealers, currency speculators, and exchanges offering to convert fiat into the kind of money people use to buy ... food & shelter, then yeah, people would be pretty ashamed to use fiat.