Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[niothor]

what happend right after the fall of mother Russia in the ex-soviets states is a clear example.

This example is  not correct. Actually, a lot of Russian gangsters of 1990s are in government now.

Well , if we don't have individuals seeking more power like I said, then what is this.

And I wasn't talking about what happend in years after that , I was talking about the 1-2 years before we had some kind of a functional form of goverment I remeber even now how the cities were deserted after the sun set ... why tha? .. because of fear! Fera of robberies , rapes murders , something unseen before.

[Rampion]

The moment we free ourselves from the tyranny of the goverment and become free...

I'm selling you my laptop and all my bitcoins for a bow , 10 arrows and a blanket.

A common reaction. People often imagine that without centrally enforced rules, everything would instantly dissolve into a dog-eat-dog war zone with people killing other people at random, looting, raping and taking a shit in front of your door (someone once provided this as an argument in this very same discussion with me..). As if the only thing stopping people from acting this way right now is the looming threat of imprisonment and punishment by the legal system. Divide and conquer still seems to be working quite well.

Have you ever noticed that laws are there for OTHER people? As in the laws are here to prevent other people from killing me and stealing my stuff. Not to prevent me from doing the same. I'm a decent fellow. It's those other bastards...  

A little reminder. http://silverdoctors.com/one-year-in-hellsurviving-a-full-shtf-collapse-in-bosnia/

People living a quiet life eating pies with their neighbours and talking about how bad their goverment is with a beer in their hands don't have a clue what happens when there is no central authority.

The same neighbour will kill you for food simply because he doesn't want to die first.
Armed gang will soon appear because it's human nature to seek power and to gain control , also to ensure your own life. Kill before getting killed.

What happend is former Yugoslavia and what happend right after the fall of mother Russia in the ex-soviets states is a clear example.

Ps. I live close to the serbian-romanian border , so the shit going there was real.

When we treat other people as "competitors" then stealing and such when times get tough is a predictable outcome. But we have known no other form of government and economics. We are taught in the schools that Darwin was right, when nature shows us cooperation is right. (Even with Lions hunting prey, Nature is mostly a brilliant example of cooperation).

Kropotkin pretty much demonstrated in his "Mutual Aid" anthropological masterpiece that cooperation between members of the same species its not only natural but necessary in the broader fight for survival.

But, that's what capitalism and social darwinists turned upside down. I guess there are too many humans on earth, and nature is regulating itself pushing us to an unsustainable and self-destructive system (wild capitalism).

Back to the wall observing: weekly volume is getting lower and lower since the correction/bubble burst (still too soon to decide what was that - which is funny because all of us would have bet that 1 month and a half after the April 10th crash we would have know for sure if that crash was a bubble pop or a correction)

[niothor]

Well , lower volume in some cases would be a good sign...
People getting rid of exchanges and having a truly decentralized currency , but we're not at that point right now

Right now , the media is gone , the influx of new people is back to the previous years. People don't want to sell their coins like before , or to use them as it would be normal because they heard a bitcoin is going to be worth 300k by Christmas and so on.....

I think we're going back to normal growth , and I'm happy with it.

[ErisDiscordia]

hmmm a couple of points to think about (mostly rephrasing things Its about sharing has said):

1. an argument for central authority enforcing rules is that it can theoretically protect people from murder, theft etc. by enforced legislation. (I say this, because as it turns out people in positions of power have little incentive to actually do so) In my eyes this is debatable but I'm willing to grant that this may be so. Now let's look at the other side of the coin: what about crimes of theft and murder perpetrated by those very same authorities? Concentration camps, Gulags, Ethnic cleansing, wars for profit, devaluation of currency, outright confiscation of gold and/or currency, taxation - all those are impossible to commit by individuals, you need an institution like the state for this. With this argument I think the proposed remedy is much worse than the illness it is supposed to cure.

2. another argument for central authority enforcing rules boils down to references to "human nature" - usually portraying it as base, savage, selfish and violent. I see several problems with this: first of all "human nature" might be much more variable than we have been led to believe by living in a relatively stable cultural environment. People have been known to live in monogamy and polygamy for example. Which one is human nature? Human nature gets shaped mostly by genetics and environment. And I say that environment has a much bigger impact on your behavior and values than it generally gets credit for. So referring to "human nature" as something fixed means overlooking historical diversity as well as the potential for further evolution.

3. connected to the human nature argument is a point which Its about sharing has touched on: darwinism and survival of fittest. "natural order" usually gets associated with "survival of the fittest". This is an incomplete picture, though. If you study the behavior of various biospheres you will see your fair share of predators depending on their individual strength to survive. But the more developed and complex the biosphere, the more organisms you will find, who don't fall into this category, but rather ensure their survival by being essential to that biospheres functioning. In other words, survival of the fittest (competition) is a valid evolutionary strategy but so is survival of the most valuable (cooperation). Let's not forget this. Viewed through this lens a potential lawless society starts looking less scary.

4. we don't really know. This is important to fully realize. I don't know if and how a society without a central governing authority would work in todays technological and cultural environment. I freely admit that. But neither do YOU. Statements like the following:

In any scenario where theres an absence of central authority or rules people will revert to their original sociopathic state.. people will kill each other for petty things because now they will not be questioned for the crime..

simply assume perfect knowledge about elusive concepts like human nature and what exactly would happen. I view this as arrogant and foolish at best.

But as has been mentioned - our reality grid gets shaped by the culture we live in, one could say that culture is our collective operating system. Today most people don't know how to program their own operating system. Most of them aren't even aware that such a thing might exist, they simply accept whatever prevalent cultural norms there are as "reality". Their operating system and thus view or reality gets to be programmed by media and public schools and it's easy to see how these sources of programming might have an interest in preserving the status quo.

5. Because there always have to be 5 points (see The law of fives for clarification): In the end it's in our hands how we want to live our lives. If you want to submit to a central authority dictating how to live different aspects of your life for whatever reason (maybe you feel insecure about your own sense of judgement, are afraid of deviating from norms because of ostracism or just don't like to take responsibility) that's your choice. but PLEASE for the love of everything that is dear to you: let those who don't want a life like that be FREE to not join your game. As it turns out there's a big chance that the next major inventions and technological improvements will come exactly from these people.

[solex]

Looking at the bitcoinity line chart the trend in May looks like a gentle upward continuation of Feb/early-March, before a seismic event of BTC excitement... So main trend intact,

[fr33d0miz3r]

If you want to submit to a central authority dictating how to live different aspects of your life for whatever reason (maybe you feel insecure about your own sense of judgement, are afraid of deviating from norms because of ostracism or just don't like to take responsibility) that's your choice. but PLEASE for the love of everything that is dear to you: let those who don't want a life like that be FREE to not join your game. As it turns out there's a big chance that the next major inventions and technological improvements will come exactly from these people.

+1

[ChartBuddy]

[drdanishkhan]

In any scenario where theres an absence of central authority or rules people will revert to their original sociopathic state.. people will kill each other for petty things because now they will not be questioned for the crime.. i think rules are necessary but only to an extent where they protect the society and not an individual.. rules today are only for those without power, the average citizen.. the ones with money aka power still dont have to answer for their crimes..

Again, you don't know that. You are speaking like recent history is the proof of what human behavior is.

We have been led by the least among us. We have been led with money in mind and not compassion. Change the variables of the equation we currently live in, and you would not feel nor believe what you do.

Our educational system has been dumbing us down with Prussian "education" since the 1800's. Taking away and killing our creativity and curiosity.

Do the real research and you will see we have manipulated to feel and believe what we currently do.

But welcome to the apocalypse - the truth is being unveiled...

So heres a situation buddy.. its apocalypse time.. you are out of water and food.. starving for a week now and all you have is a gun.. you see a guy with some food (maybe a hotdog or whateva you like).. You go to him and he tell you to F off coz he found it its his.. what are you gonna do.. keep starvin for god knows how long or go away quitely??

In an ideal world where the governments took care of its citizens and people actually cared for each other and respected each others possession this situation would never have come.. but we have to face reality here.. i have seen a guy killin a vendor for 15 Rs ie 0.27$.. yeah thats the kinda fucked up world we live in.. so its always better to be cautious..
and i totaly agree we have been made slaves.. creativity today iis considered a sign of illness.. as if something is wrong with him or her.. education actually ruined us..

[Miz4r]

hmmm a couple of points to think about (mostly rephrasing things Its about sharing has said):

1. an argument for central authority enforcing rules is that it can theoretically protect people from murder, theft etc. by enforced legislation. (I say this, because as it turns out people in positions of power have little incentive to actually do so) In my eyes this is debatable but I'm willing to grant that this may be so. Now let's look at the other side of the coin: what about crimes of theft and murder perpetrated by those very same authorities? Concentration camps, Gulags, Ethnic cleansing, wars for profit, devaluation of currency, outright confiscation of gold and/or currency, taxation - all those are impossible to commit by individuals, you need an institution like the state for this. With this argument I think the proposed remedy is much worse than the illness it is supposed to cure.

2. another argument for central authority enforcing rules boils down to references to "human nature" - usually portraying it as base, savage, selfish and violent. I see several problems with this: first of all "human nature" might be much more variable than we have been led to believe by living in a relatively stable cultural environment. People have been known to live in monogamy and polygamy for example. Which one is human nature? Human nature gets shaped mostly by genetics and environment. And I say that environment has a much bigger impact on your behavior and values than it generally gets credit for. So referring to "human nature" as something fixed means overlooking historical diversity as well as the potential for further evolution.

3. connected to the human nature argument is a point which Its about sharing has touched on: darwinism and survival of fittest. "natural order" usually gets associated with "survival of the fittest". This is an incomplete picture, though. If you study the behavior of various biospheres you will see your fair share of predators depending on their individual strength to survive. But the more developed and complex the biosphere, the more organisms you will find, who don't fall into this category, but rather ensure their survival by being essential to that biospheres functioning. In other words, survival of the fittest (competition) is a valid evolutionary strategy but so is survival of the most valuable (cooperation). Let's not forget this. Viewed through this lens a potential lawless society starts looking less scary.

4. we don't really know. This is important to fully realize. I don't know if and how a society without a central governing authority would work in todays technological and cultural environment. I freely admit that. But neither do YOU. Statements like the following:

In any scenario where theres an absence of central authority or rules people will revert to their original sociopathic state.. people will kill each other for petty things because now they will not be questioned for the crime..

simply assume perfect knowledge about elusive concepts like human nature and what exactly would happen. I view this as arrogant and foolish at best.

But as has been mentioned - our reality grid gets shaped by the culture we live in, one could say that culture is our collective operating system. Today most people don't know how to program their own operating system. Most of them aren't even aware that such a thing might exist, they simply accept whatever prevalent cultural norms there are as "reality". Their operating system and thus view or reality gets to be programmed by media and public schools and it's easy to see how these sources of programming might have an interest in preserving the status quo.

5. Because there always have to be 5 points (see The law of fives for clarification): In the end it's in our hands how we want to live our lives. If you want to submit to a central authority dictating how to live different aspects of your life for whatever reason (maybe you feel insecure about your own sense of judgement, are afraid of deviating from norms because of ostracism or just don't like to take responsibility) that's your choice. but PLEASE for the love of everything that is dear to you: let those who don't want a life like that be FREE to not join your game. As it turns out there's a big chance that the next major inventions and technological improvements will come exactly from these people.

This is a great post, good to see the bitcoin community has so many people with this kind of free and forward thinking mindset. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

[drdanishkhan]

2. another argument for central authority enforcing rules boils down to references to "human nature" - usually portraying it as base, savage, selfish and violent. I see several problems with this: first of all "human nature" might be much more variable than we have been led to believe by living in a relatively stable cultural environment. People have been known to live in monogamy and polygamy for example. Which one is human nature? Human nature gets shaped mostly by genetics and environment. And I say that environment has a much bigger impact on your behavior and values than it generally gets credit for. So referring to "human nature" as something fixed means overlooking historical diversity as well as the potential for further evolution.

Just because you dont eat a lion dont expect that the lion wont eat you.. i have seen many many delightful people whom i learnt from very much but thats only a minority.. and i definitely agree it has to do with how the kids are "raised" .. today all ii see are selfish people all around me.. i am a doctor working in a hospital and i have seen patients die because there own son or daughter refused to give blood or pay for their treatment.. i have seen how selfish people can be.. many of my fellow doctors voluntarily donate our own blood in desperate times because the patients cant afford it or have been left there as destitute by the relatives.. its a harsh world here.. people who live in central AC and 24 hour power supply dont realise what its like when you dont have anything.. not even a roof over your head and decent clothes to cover your body..

[fr33d0miz3r]

my modest graph



I think when we reach 266 again, we'll get good press coverage again... And... The new bubble will start 

[ErisDiscordia]

So heres a situation buddy.. its apocalypse time.. you are out of water and food.. starving for a week now and all you have is a gun.. you see a guy with some food (maybe a hotdog or whateva you like).. You go to him and he tell you to F off coz he found it its his.. what are you gonna do.. keep starvin for god knows how long or go away quitely??

2 points to be made here:

1. in a situation like this, the government couldn't help that guy either.
2. how do we end up in situations like this? I would argue that usually it's precisely due to some government fatally mismanaging the economy and available resources. I mean once you're in a situation like today, where the government takes about half of your income from you, the apocalypse is only a tiny step away. Hint: governments are really bad at managing resources - I wonder if that has something to do with them being monopolies and all

[drdanishkhan]

So heres a situation buddy.. its apocalypse time.. you are out of water and food.. starving for a week now and all you have is a gun.. you see a guy with some food (maybe a hotdog or whateva you like).. You go to him and he tell you to F off coz he found it its his.. what are you gonna do.. keep starvin for god knows how long or go away quitely??

2 points to be made here:

1. in a situation like this, the government couldn't help that guy either.
2. how do we end up in situations like this? I would argue that usually it's precisely due to some government fatally mismanaging the economy and available resources. I mean once you're in a situation like today, where the government takes about half of your income from you, the apocalypse is only a tiny step away. Hint: governments are really bad at managing resources - I wonder if that has something to do with them being monopolies and all

That wasnt my point brother.. what i wanted to ask you is what would you do in this situation.. leave quietly or force the guy to give or share his food ??

[niothor]

If you want to submit to a central authority dictating how to live different aspects of your life for whatever reason (maybe you feel insecure about your own sense of judgement, are afraid of deviating from norms because of ostracism or just don't like to take responsibility) that's your choice. but PLEASE for the love of everything that is dear to you: let those who don't want a life like that be FREE to not join your game. As it turns out there's a big chance that the next major inventions and technological improvements will come exactly from these people.

+1

Begging not to get into slavery? No chance!!!!!!

[niothor]

When we treat other people as "competitors" then stealing and such when times get tough is a predictable outcome. But we have known no other form of government and economics. We are taught in the schools that Darwin was right, when nature shows us cooperation is right. (Even with Lions hunting prey, Nature is mostly a brilliant example of cooperation).

Yeah , lions are the perfect example.... do you know what happens to lions cubs when a new male or male group takes over the pack  (after killing or routing the previous males) ?

Don't mistake colaboration in the same pack with colaboration between the entire species.

[fr33d0miz3r]

Begging not to get into slavery? No chance!!!!!!

Nothing is impossible with a brain  

[drdanishkhan]

Everybody seems to think that a central authority is pretty much the same as a monarchy or dictatorship.. If the right kind of people ie the ones who actually care for others rather than themselves take charge i dont see why we cant form a well functioning and people welfare oriented society/government?? That would be a central authority but not a dictatorship.. so no slavery  
 Am i wrong in thinking this way??

[Miz4r]

Why do people act selfishly? Is it part of their nature or does it have something to do with the social and cultural environment around them which has 'taught' them that being selfish is the best way to survive? Could you think of an environment that encourages cooperation over competition, or is that impossible and do all roads lead to the basic survival of the fittest scenario? Can we humans make the next step in evolution or will we stick to our barbaric ways of waging war over resources and land? I believe that is the main question that will be answered in the next couple of decades.

[fr33d0miz3r]

Everybody seems to think that a central authority is pretty much the same as a monarchy or dictatorship.. If the right kind of people ie the ones who actually care for others rather than themselves take charge i dont see why we cant form a well functioning and people welfare oriented society/government?? That would be a central authority but not a dictatorship.. so no slavery  
 Am i wrong in thinking this way??

Every central authority beginning from good and right people. But then it becomes occupied by "gangsters"...

[Loozik]

If the right kind of people ie the ones who actually care for others rather than themselves take charge ...[...]

And this is the weak point / condition that has been failing for thousands of years. Many people declared to be the right kind. But once they take charge ... well that's a different story.