Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[KeyserSoze]

Adam, time to close this damn thread and make a new one.... This shit has gone Mexico

This thread has the most posts and views in the history of the forum. You're obviously operating on a level of genius I cannot comprehend.

I will grant you the secret to life. You're going to slough this, I know, but this is some zen reality for you. Notice I do not ask for payment because I am a giving kind of guy. Ready?
...drumroll, please...

Be the change. If you want to talk about TA then do that instead of yapping about Mexico. If you want rockets then post the damn rocket GIFs yourself. Or get lost. I know you prefer handouts, from the government, from Adam, etc., but you have the ability to change your life yourself.

Beyond sharing the secret of life I will help you further by posting some bull tears caused by the recent price drop to help get the thread back on track. Consider this image as my government cheese given free of charge to you, my starving indigent.

[JayJuanGee]

Literally?    I do not want to get caught up in the meaning of literally. 

Anyhow, part of the reason that we have some of this back and forth communication on this topic is b/c we have differing understandings on some terms, including the term coercion.  So, at this point, I am a little unclear about the point that you are making Dreamspark?  Did you want to chime in to clarify what is so clear about coercion and why living in society is coercion? 

There are people from third world countries who are fighting for the chance to live in america, in spite of all its supposedly "coercive" taxes.

Clearly in its original meaning as he had just told you why. * facepalm

Anyhow, you can try and say we have different understandings of the term but that is not the case. You have a different understanding of it in comparison to the real definition. Look, "Persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats:" is the dictionary definition of coercion. If you can argue that being a part of society in regards to paying taxes against your will under the threat of force is not coercion then I'll be flabbergasted.

Perhaps we can try a different approach cause Im pretty bored of seeing your sensless rants. Can you explain how it is not coercion as an explaination as to why it is coercion has been offered several times.

It seems that i have already explained sufficiently why living in a community is NOT necessarily coercion, even though there may be varying coercive aspects to living in a community and some communities will have more coercive aspects than others.  You do NOT agree or you believe that I am missing something, so why go on about it?

[KeyserSoze]

Even in New York City, it is not uncommon for people to not have cars.

True. I think Hamburg is going carless as well. It's kind of a nice movement I think, in congested cities. Some others are moving to electric car only.... there's an island somewhere doing that I believe but I forget the name. Also Hawaiian islands have taken a liking to EVs.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089571_hamburg-germany-aims-for-car-less-streets-in-20-years

[hdbuck]

Even in New York City, it is not uncommon for people to not have cars.

True. I think Hamburg is going carless as well. It's kind of a nice movement I think, in congested cities. Some others are moving to electric car only.... there's an island somewhere doing that I believe but I forget the name. Also Hawaiian islands have taken a liking to EVs.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089571_hamburg-germany-aims-for-car-less-streets-in-20-years

ohh mann electric cars are the worst.. you dont get to hear them when crossing streets..

[ErisDiscordia]

Yes, roads seem to be a very good example of a public good, and if roads are a public good, then the public has a right to have input into their direction, extent, quality and quantity... amongst other things related to such, in the event that they are considered to be public. 

I don't think anyone here will try to argue any differently. I agree too, people should have a say in these things. What I (and many others here) am saying is that there are other ways of doing this besides centralized governments. And some of them may even be better, too.

Yes, octaft leaves a much better impression, because he doesn't drop these:

Frequently, people who live in fantasy lands attempt to create new facts or get caught up in technicalities...

so often. This is not the first time you are saying about people that they live in "pie in sky" fantasy land. I do not know whether I live in fantasy land, nor whether you do. But have YOU considered that you might live in fantasy land, too? I am not implying you are, but that it is important to keep the possibility in mind.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[dreamspark]

  You do NOT agree or you believe that I am missing something, so why go on about it?

Um, isnt that what a conversation is. You dont agree with whats being said to you or you think that others are missing something so you keep going on about it. Difference is other people arent changing word definitions of their own accord and don't consistently state their opinions as facts.

Anyway, no need to reply to this. We're not getting anywhere because you make yourself immpossible to converse with.

[JayJuanGee]

The system of governance and the community are in competition for resources.  When the system has more power, the available resources are allocated into the growth of the system.  When the community has more power, the available resources are allocated to the welfare of the community.  Decentralization removes power from the system, and adds it to the community.

The general problem with socializing things is that in practice costs are socialized, and benefits are privatized.  A lack of effective checks and balances will mean that the fox is always hired to guard the henhouse.

Roads are NOT going to be built in any kind of efficient way without public funding. 

I'm glad you emphasized that because otherwise I would have thought it wasn't true.  I've seen the road work around here, and it's pretty clear that the ratio of supervisors to workers is 4:1, that roads are rebuilt when they are in perfectly good condition (presumably because someone's brother-in-law owns the tar & sand company), that roads are built in places where nobody wants them, that roads are not built in places where people want them, that millions are spent on roads, but no one can be chuffed to spend a couple thousand on a traffic light until at least 4 or 5 people get killed at a given intersection, that the competence of traffic planning falls somewhere between the Riddler and the Joker.  Why?  Because there's no competition which demands excellence, or even a slight whiff of competence.

the community seems to have decided that it wants more roads.... b/c they see that as the solution to the issue of having more people in the area.

If it works like it works around here, the community has precious little to do with it.  County commissioners hire managers who decide what happens.  There's no real community participation and no real accountability for what they do. Certainly the system has done what you say in the example you reference, but whether the community has done so is a separate question.  

county commissioners are usually elected.. but they could be appointed... so yes, you can elect these people to carry out public services. 

Maybe we are going back to the problem of money in politics b/c certainly, we should want our publicly elected officials to act in the public's interest rather than in some narrow interest.  And, if they are NOT having public meetings or receiving public input from time to time about their various public projects, then they may be doing a disservice to the public.  Sometimes, there is NOT a need for public meetings for public projects that are NOT controversial. 

Certainly, how these matters play out will vary from community to community.


I agree that sometimes there may be a need to reallocate how power is retained in various governmental entities, and there may need to be less centralization, depending on the functions of that governmental entity.  But, I do NOT agree that the solution would be to privatize public goods - though sometimes that direction may be appropriate... depending on the good or service.  Even in those kinds of cases, the good would likely retain its public nature, but just be managed privately (which may still require public oversight).

[dreamspark]

$630 wall thats been there for hours is gone. Given up on trying to keep the price up?

[KeyserSoze]

ohh mann electric cars are the worst.. you dont get to hear them when crossing streets..

Yeah, because you wouldn't want the awful personal responsibility burden of turning your head to see if a car is coming before crossing a street. Why not regulate it some more? Mandate rules to make EVs louder, then re-read Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.

The sad thing is it has already happened. I think it was the National Federation of the Blind in USA forced Nissan Leaf to ADD NOISE to their car. Mandated noise, for goodness sake.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/20/blind-group-displeased-that-nissan-leaf-sound-can-be-turned-off/

[gentlemand]

Even in New York City, it is not uncommon for people to not have cars.

True. I think Hamburg is going carless as well. It's kind of a nice movement I think, in congested cities. Some others are moving to electric car only.... there's an island somewhere doing that I believe but I forget the name. Also Hawaiian islands have taken a liking to EVs.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089571_hamburg-germany-aims-for-car-less-streets-in-20-years

They don't allow cars on the island of Sark so everyone burns around in tractors instead. Humans always seem to find a way.

[JayJuanGee]

Anyhow, part of the reason that we have some of this back and forth communication on this topic is b/c we have differing understandings on some terms, including the term coercion.  

At the risk of repeating myself,


Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force, and describes a set of various different similar types of forceful actions that violate the free will of an individual to induce a desired response. These actions can include, but are not limited to, extortion, blackmail, torture, and threats to induce favors. In law, coercion is codified as a duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain/injury or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced.
src

Care to provide the definition you are using?

Repeat yourself ad naseum... In essence, we do NOT disagree about that definition of coercion.

It seems that we just disagree about whether choosing something is coercion.. such as choosing to live in a society and being a member of a community... I am asserting such choices are NOT coercion.. even though there may be mandatory elements within living in a society.... and even though people in this thread are making out mandatory to be the same as coercion. 

It seems to me that you seem to be getting side-tracked about something that is NOT in contention.... even though there has been, for about 20 pages, a contention about whether or NOT coercion applies...

You and several of your buddies in this thread are asserting that coercion applies and is important and that coercion is a central consideration in these kinds of conversations about taxes, and I am asserting that the application of coercion is of much less importance that people in this thread are making it out to be.   I do NOT deny the existence of coercion, just the amount of emphasis being given to it. Hopefully that helps.

[aminorex]

Current rising support line (3 point support, log chart) on 1h crosses current price in 20 hours.
Cosmic log trend intercepts current falling resistance in 22 hours.
Current rising support line intercepts current falling resistance line in 72 hours.

[soullyG]

Atlas CEO's talking on Fox Business about their new exchange:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3335109592001/ceos-behind-new-exchange-system-talk-bitcoin

[JayJuanGee]

so often. This is not the first time you are saying about people that they live in "pie in sky" fantasy land. I do not know whether I live in fantasy land, nor whether you do. But have YOU considered that you might live in fantasy land, too? I am not implying you are, but that it is important to keep the possibility in mind.

Yes, each of us view the world based on our experiences, opinions and beliefs.  Some of these are more grounded in reality.  I do NOT view someone to be living in fantasy land merely b/c s/he has a different view point than mine, and also, I do NOT throw out these accusations lightly.  If someone begins to talk about facts that are clearly NOT true, and NOT supported by evidence, then I begin to throw out these kinds of accusations.


You may be correct that I may have thrown out the accusations a few times without a context, so in that regard, there may have been a miscommunication regarding my reference point.


For the record, I have no problem with innovative solutions, and potentially incorporating innovative ideas in places where they have NOT been previously applied.  NONETHELESS, I am NOT going to throw out what is working for innovation, if the concept has NOT been thought through to some extent. 

Here, we may need a specific example... and let's take bitcoin, for example.  At this point, I do NOT agree with ideas of throwing out the dollar for bitcoin, b/c bitcoin may NOT be ready to handle all of that.  However, I may be willing to throw out silver and substitute bitcoin for silver or to throw out some country's smaller currency for bitcoin.  Or throw away part of the dollar, such as international remittances and let bitcoin take that portion of the market.  I am just saying that sometimes, we do NOT want to attempt too much unless we think that our proposals can handle the situation.    In any event, I am only one person's opinion, so I understand that others may have differing opinions and prognostications regarding a large variety of matters, including the role of government and community in our daily lives.

[aminorex]

Atlas CEO's talking on Fox Business about their new exchange:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3335109592001/ceos-behind-new-exchange-system-talk-bitcoin

Please.  It's embarassing.

I'm glad there are boosters and entrepreneurs out there, but why do they have to be such dim bulbs?

[PoolMinor]

area in middle-Tennessee.
tens of thousands of people are spending a significant chunk of time sitting in traffic everyday

And yet... the growth in this area is mostly white-collar.

The more you explain, ......  In your rural Tennessee example, that is converting to a less rural existence, the community seems to have decided that it wants more roads....

I see now why Richy_T keeps snipping your comments down to where you stray from actually reading to inserting what you think is relevant to the conversation. It is obvious to me that you are not reading anything.

How do you get rural Tennessee from high traffic density and white collar workers?



Edit:
Welcome to my ignore list. Full of incoherent babblers.

[JayJuanGee]

 You do NOT agree or you believe that I am missing something, so why go on about it?

Um, isnt that what a conversation is. You dont agree with whats being said to you or you think that others are missing something so you keep going on about it. Difference is other people arent changing word definitions of their own accord and don't consistently state their opinions as facts.

Anyway, no need to reply to this. We're not getting anywhere because you make yourself immpossible to converse with.

YES... YOU ARE VERY possible to converse with.   hehehehe

   You throw out a personal attack and then you say, o.k... no need for me to respond.


Let me just say, the reason that I am saying that we do NOT need to go on about this particular topic is that if we cannot agree upon basic definitions (such as the application of coercion in government and I have been addressing variations of this question in various places for nearly 20 more than 50 pages), then we are NOT going to agree about other conclusions that are built upon those definitions.  

Personally, I do NOT find it fruitful or productive to spend time discussing things with people in circumstances in which we do NOT agree about fundamental definitions.   Sometimes we may go around and around the bush several times, and then figure out that we do agree on a redefinition of our original disagreement, yet I am just saying why go around and around the bush several times when it does NOT really matter that much.  I would rather talk about bitcoin related stuff b/c  I do NOT feel that I need to resolve these role of government matters ... NOT at the moment....  

Several posters have already made their points on the role of government topic in several ways... though I get the sense that probably, a few of us are NOT completely exhausted, yet, and accordingly, the discussion is NOT quite over, yet.  hehehe...

TO DA MOON

[soullyG]

Atlas CEO's talking on Fox Business about their new exchange:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3335109592001/ceos-behind-new-exchange-system-talk-bitcoin

Please.  It's embarassing.

I'm glad there are boosters and entrepreneurs out there, but why do they have to be such dim bulbs?

Yes I agree, it reminds me of something Richy_T said about us being in a similar stage to where the internet was a few years ago, with news presenters reading out URLs as "haitch tee tee pee colon forward slash...etc" - it's cringeworthy to watch!

[KeyserSoze]

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3335109592001/ceos-behind-new-exchange-system-talk-bitcoin

Odd that on the scroller underneath video, and touted in the video, that Tesla accepts Bitcoin. Unless I missed the announcement Tesla does not accept Bitcoin. "A" Tesla was purchased from a car dealer who accepted Bitcoin-to-cash via BitPay. That isn't to say this wasn't cool as well, just not Tesla direct.