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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26837351 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JorgeStolfi
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April 21, 2014, 11:29:10 PM

Chinese Slumber Method prediction for Tuesday April 22

Prediction valid for: Tuesday 2014-04-22, 19:00--19:59 UTC (not before, not after)
Huobi's predicted price: 3091 CNY
Bitstamp's predicted price: 494 USD





Plot legend

Today's data point was so-so, (S = 0.0051 W = 0.598) but almost exactly aligned with the last two points.  Therefore it seems best to assume a straight-line trend, fitted by weighted least squares to the last three points.  Namely, A + B*(d-d0), where d-d0 is the number of days since Apr/19, A = 3144.19 and B = -17.62.

The Bitstamp prediction, as usual, is the Huobi prediction divided by the currency conversion factor R, which was assumed to be 6.26 CNY/USD. It was 6.27, 6.25, 6.26 at the last three Slumber Times.
 
Checking the previous prediction

Prediction was posted on: Sunday 2014-04-20, 23:02 UTC
Prediction was valid for: Monday 2014-04-21, 19:00--19:59 UTC (~20 hours later)

Another lucky break:

Huobi's predicted price: 3097 CNY
Huobi's actual price (L+H)/2: 3110 CNY
Error: 13 CNY (~2 USD)

Bitstamp's predicted price: 496 USD
Bitstamp's actual price (L+H)/2: 496 USD
Error: 0 USD
 
NOTE: "There is a 70% probability of tomorrow." (actual weatherman quote. 1988)
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April 21, 2014, 11:53:29 PM

If you bought Bitcoin a year ago would you have made a profit or not? How about a year before that? I guess the thing to do is buy as much as you can afford right now and come back next year to tell the story of your great success.

You would have made only a paper profit. You have to SELL to have a real profit.

Are you calling Bitcoin paper?  You want him to sell his BTC for paper U.S. dollars to avoid his profit being paper?


Are you serious? 

This is a basic concept and a basic expression to cash out in order to realize the payoff of the investment.  The expression of paper profit or paper loss for that matter, is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
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April 21, 2014, 11:54:51 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2014, 12:22:26 AM by Post-Cosmic

I'm wondering why the $15-$18 price differential between Stamp and BTC-e. I am guessing the Russians have a better understanding of the China situation than The West has.

I'm sick of the bear market too, but I doubt it's over just because I want it to be.


 BTCe is a ghetto 'sideline/secondary option' exchange & the prices reflect it (their website's GUI looks pretty uninviting as well =/) - guess people dump harder on there to be on the safe side from near-anonymous owners.

 Folks here'd do well to be aware that these manipulators have enough resources & income to keep this rodeo going on for months if not years.. One doesn't handle this intelligently by 'waiting it out' & relying on 'hope' ; Keeping at least a small portion of your stash into a trading acct to buy around high 300's & 200's, and sell around 500's & 600's, is how one keeps making some very respectable, safe profit month after month, increasing total crypto net worth over time while using this activity churn as a psychological bulwark to responsibly handling the loooong potential wait before next ATH w/o depression or panic.

Suggesting people should trade during this China thing is the worst advise you can give. Out of 10 people who take your advise at least 8 will lose their money.

 Selling @ relative highs & buying back in at absolute lows (200-300's) every few months or so doesn't even register as 'trading' to be honest. The majority of this thread's non-permahodlers are doing just that as we speak.

 And you don't need to have insider info on what the whales will do specifically, to know that buying non-leveraged @ 20%+ (aka ~$100) below current price has 98%+ chance of not ever causing you to have reason to panic, realize a loss or have to weather that specific trade being in the 'red'/underwater for any longer than several weeks in the worst scenario.
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April 22, 2014, 12:00:20 AM


Explanation
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April 22, 2014, 12:06:02 AM

is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
Bitcoin *IS* cash.
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April 22, 2014, 12:08:57 AM

If you bought Bitcoin a year ago would you have made a profit or not? How about a year before that? I guess the thing to do is buy as much as you can afford right now and come back next year to tell the story of your great success.

You would have made only a paper profit. You have to SELL to have a real profit.

Are you calling Bitcoin paper?  You want him to sell his BTC for paper U.S. dollars to avoid his profit being paper?


Are you serious? 

This is a basic concept and a basic expression to cash out in order to realize the payoff of the investment.  The expression of paper profit or paper loss for that matter, is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.

This concept loses its meaning in forex.  The IRS may disagree, but BTC looks more like a currency than a commodity.  It is directly tradable for goods and services.  It need not ever be exchanged for a fiat currency.

Long term holders can choose to use BTC as their base currency.  If they feel another currency looks bullish against BTC, they can buy that and then sell back to BTC when they want to lock in profits.
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April 22, 2014, 12:19:08 AM

3d macd cross no panic tho Cheesy thats in an hr or 2
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April 22, 2014, 12:22:47 AM

I'm wondering why the $15-$18 price differential between Stamp and BTC-e. I am guessing the Russians have a better understanding of the China situation than The West has.

I'm sick of the bear market too, but I doubt it's over just because I want it to be.


 BTCe is a ghetto 'sideline/secondary option' exchange & the prices reflect it (their website's GUI looks pretty uninviting as well =/) - guess people dump harder on there to be on the safe side from near-anonymous owners.

 Folks here'd do well to be aware that these manipulators have enough resources & income to keep this rodeo going on for months if not years.. One doesn't handle this intelligently by 'waiting it out' & relying on 'hope' ; Keeping at least a small portion of your stash into a trading acct to buy around high 300's & 200's, and sell around 500's & 600's, is how one keeps making some very respectable, safe profit month after month, increasing total crypto net worth over time while using this activity churn as a psychological bulwark to responsibly handling the loooong potential wait before next ATH w/o depression or panic.

Suggesting people should trade during this China thing is the worst advise you can give. Out of 10 people who take your advise at least 8 will lose their money.

 Selling @ relative highs & buying back in at absolute lows (200-300's) every few months or so doesn't even register as 'trading' to be honest. The majority of this thread's non-permahodlers are doing just that as we speak.



I think that there is a variety of types of participants in this thread... however, many of the ones who label themselves as NON-daytraders have been disinclined to sell below $600 or so ...

I think the idea is to buy when the price is going down and to sell when the prices is going up.. however, NONE of us can really predict when the price is going down or up.. so there is a tendency to error on the side of HODL.. and also to exercise the buying and the selling at the extremes.. to the extent that can be measured.... so if we are of the belief that there is a long term trendline that is going up, then attempt to buy below the trendline and to sell above the trendline.  Sure there are other variations of that kind of a practice, yet I believe that mistakes can be made when miscalculating the trendline b/c there are quite a few varying opinions about where that trendline is, exactly.. or the short-term allure to make a few bucks, if we feel pretty confident that either news or FUD is going to cause a predictable and measureable price movement.
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April 22, 2014, 12:24:22 AM

Missing a pic of a bear?



(The Milnesium tardigradum is a bear, but a rather small one)

[ Edited from a Wikimedia Commons image ]
JorgeStolfi
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April 22, 2014, 12:31:57 AM

I think the idea is to buy when the price is going down and to sell when the price is going up..
Actually, the idea is to buy when the price is about to go up and to sell when it is about to go down.  Wink 

(But, admittedly, there are practical difficulties in the implementation of that theoretical principle.   Grin)
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April 22, 2014, 12:36:48 AM

is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
Bitcoin *IS* cash.

You seem to be getting caught up in some kind of definition issues and  a possibly getting caught up in a world that does NOT exist yet for a large majority of people. Most people, even in the bitcoin world, are NOT exclusively living on bitcoin, yet.

Also, as you likely realize, an investor realizes profits from an investment by converting to fiat or converting to some other assets such as luxury boats or whatever.. that is cashing out....  Hopefully, the cashing out comes when BTC prices go up...... 

Let's say, for example that I want to stay in fiat, but I invest in bitcoin to potentially increase my fiat.  accordingly, I acquire 100 bitcoins at $500 each, and then in two days the price of those BTC goes up to $1,000 each.  I may come to the conclusion that the price is going down again, so I decide to cash out all or.. Possibly, I will buy back some more bitcoins later or maybe i will just cash out half of them in order to get my fiat amount investment back. 

Cashing out may NOT be a wise idea, depending on the circumstances, but, people will come to different conclusions about how much, how often or when to cash out or even whether to ever cash out.
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April 22, 2014, 12:43:01 AM

I think the idea is to buy when the price is going down and to sell when the price is going up..
Actually, the idea is to buy when the price is about to go up and to sell when it is about to go down.  Wink 

(But, admittedly, there are practical difficulties in the implementation of that theoretical principle.   Grin)

YES... the practicality of real world prediction gets in the way.    Cheesy

In this regard, NO one really wants to sell at $500, for example, and then in the next few days the price goes up 50% (to $750) or some other large amount.  Also, NO one really wants to buy at $500 and then the price goes down to $250 in the next few days.. Therefore, a lot of people end up staggering their buys and their sells in order to approximate some kind of systematic skill in their best guesses... some guess better than others and some have more money than others to throw at the situation.
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April 22, 2014, 12:43:23 AM

is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
Bitcoin *IS* cash.

So much of this. Bitcoin is better cash than fiat even.
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April 22, 2014, 12:55:59 AM

is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
Bitcoin *IS* cash.
So much of this. Bitcoin is better cash than fiat even.
Come on folks, each one has his Ultimate Object of Desire, and "realizes the gains" when he gets hold of that.

If your goal is dollars, you have "realized" when you converted to dollars.  If your goal is gold, you "realized" whe you exchanged the dollars for gold.  If your goal is marriage, you "realized" when you exchanged the gold for marriage.  Cheesy
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April 22, 2014, 01:00:00 AM

is NOT realized until the asset is cashed out.
Bitcoin *IS* cash.
So much of this. Bitcoin is better cash than fiat even.
Come on folks, each one has his Ultimate Object of Desire, and "realizes the gains" when he gets hold of that.

If your goal is dollars, you have "realized" when you converted to dollars.  If your goal is gold, you "realized" whe you exchanged the dollars for gold.  If your goal is marriage, you "realized" when you exchanged the gold for marriage.  Cheesy

The ad said 4 oz gold for my new Hungarian wife
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April 22, 2014, 01:00:18 AM


Explanation
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April 22, 2014, 01:10:09 AM

My superstitious guess on Bitcoin price...


Figure 1


Figure 2

Before I start, if you haven't noticed, I know nothing about trading. I just thought it was fair to share my own superstitious guesses. I use terms like "wave" and "fractal" but I subscribe to no school of thought when it comes to trading, so take these terms at face value.

And I hope I'm wrong cuz I am mostly in BTC! DOH!

We all know "past performance is no guarantee of future results" however that's exactly what my erroneous guesses are based on. Why? Because of my frail human psyche. I am superstitious even though I know I shouldn't be. I'd like to think I am special and know something about the market that you don't. I like to look to the past to predict the future even when I know it is impossible. My momma just didn't love me enough.

Figure 1 is a 6-month view starting at the bubble which ran from ~$150 to ~@1100. Green arrows show dramatic rises; red shows severe dips.

Period A is the overarching rise and fall of that first monumental "pseudo-fractal". Period B shows the smaller rise/fall, and so on. I refer to a Period as "pseudo fractal" because I like to think there is some partially fractal essence to the way price reacts. This is a part of my superstition.

Period B is a more stretched out and flattened fractal of A. Period C is a shorter and flatter fractal of B. Which makes me wonder if Period D, which is 80% fantasy created by me and my friend Photoshop, will be another, flatter fractal of C.

The arrow coming off of D points to exactly where I began my fantasy price line. The addition is simply a trimmed copy of Period C pasted back in and flattened a bit more. I wasn't sure whether I should lengthen it or shorten it but I would assume it would be one or the other; either shorter because the market is reacting to each Period faster, or maybe longer because the market is so unsure whether it should buy or sell.

Anyway, from this guess concerning Period D, I would further reckon we'll see a slow downtrend until we get the sharper sell off ~May-June. I would think the extremes might be in the neighborhood of $300. I just hope it doesn't hit $266 cuz that could freak some old timers out enough to sell even further.

I would say it is then we would begin to see an extended flat period (my hand drawn Period E) because many speculators will be worn out. Folks who wanted to turn a quick buck will be gone. Folks who were new to Bitcoin and bought at $600-$1200 will be gone, unfortunately. Some businesses will have given up.

I would guess it'll be painfully slow during this time (as if it hasn't been low volume enough recently). Lots of doom and gloom, etc. People will no longer be screaming about losing money. Instead the laments will be "is it dead?" "How could it recover, there's no one using it."

I think there will be a "Period E" because of Figure 2. This shot is a 2-year period showing the long periods in between the $32 bubble to the $266 bubble to the $1100 bubble. The $32 bubble is off screen to the left a bit.

F2A (Figure 2, Period A) was about 15-16 months or so (you can't see all of it on the chart). F2B was about 6 months long.

How long will the flatline doldrums of F1E be (if it even occurs)?  One could argue it will be longer or shorter. It could be shorter because if we're talking fractals, each bubble has a shorter depression after it, therefore this next one could be 3 months or maybe 2. We could see ~$350-$450 until ~September.

...or one could argue it will be longer. The $32 crash suffered a long malaise period afterward because there just weren't very many people involved. Infrastructure was nearly non-existent with maybe 1 half decent exchange to even be able to buy them. The $266 crash got a LOT of exposure so we had more buy-in. The gloom after $266 was quickly washed away with all the incoming cash.

But this one, this $1100 crash, with Gox going under, has cost a lot of people a lot of money and faith. There are only so many adventurous types in the world. I wonder how many we brought in and lost in this last crash. The next influx will need to capture non-adventurous types. And that ain't easy.

I hope there is a short F1E Period which sets the stage for next rise which, if it comes, wouldn't be before July.

Programmable money is here to stay. I hope it's Bitcoin. We're constantly seeing good news, new apps, more ATMs and other infrastructure. I am truly stoked about it. Can Bitcoin create another wave that does not subside? Here's hoping my bearish guess is way off base and we see the moon next week!  Smiley
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April 22, 2014, 02:00:19 AM


Explanation
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April 22, 2014, 02:06:48 AM

My superstitious guess on Bitcoin price...
 

I thought that you were more bullish.. then you are seeming to evolve into something more bearish...

What's up like that?


I am glad that you proclaimed to have few technical analysis skills, so we may as well throw that part out.

In essence, we know that there have been a couple of negative news events this year.. and surely bitcoin had suffered other negative news before past bubbles...   ... but the fundamentals have NOT really changed.   Solutions for various problems are being worked out, and more and more of the public is becoming aware of bitcoin, yet the infrastructure may NOT be ready for the next bubble... accordingly we are dabbling in $500 and maybe we will dabble at prices below $500, such as $300s. 

Nonetheless, bitcoin is NOT dead and it is NOT dying.  There is NO reason to conclude that another bubble will NOT come - merely b/c the bubble may be delayed by a few months.

I think that you know the various uses of bitcoin that potentially give it value, so I should NOT have to go over any of those uses.... so the only question should be when and how much will be the next bubble rather than concluding that bitcoin has lost its momentum and accordingly is on a downward trajectory.  That's just NOT a very complete picture about what is going on with bitcoin and the bitcoin space.
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April 22, 2014, 02:25:43 AM

article was just mentioned on tradingview:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609971/Disturbing-new-internet-child-abuse-sees-toddlers-raped-burned-live-webcam-paedophiles-use-Bitcoin-stop-traced-warns-police-chief.html

really disturbing stuff, but i have to think of this at the same time:



let's see how much the media will cannibalise it...
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