Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[lay785]

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.

Huh show me a free credit card the gives 3% cashback which is not a set time or category promo.

Highest ive seen is 2.2% cashback. Certain rewards points are thought to be worth 5-15cents each eg. starwood amex points if you intend to stay at hotels and compare the price to what the hotel normally costs. Theres an annual fee on that card but some people get it waived. Was just giving an example of how depending on how you use your points you can get much more than 3%.

I know someone who has an amex gold and sells amex rewards points for like 5cents or so. although that has an annual fee as well. if you spend enough you negate the annual fee and can still get like 3.5-4%.

IF you spend enough and IF you want to stay in that specific hotel IF that hotel is available on that date IF your points don't expire ...  bottom line credit companies are for profit and are making money (lots of it) off transactions. There can be no argument that cutting them out is beneficial, to both merchants and their customers, a more valid argument should be how those savings should be split between two

unless part of the rewards come from people overspending and the interest they end up paying. paying in bitcoins even with discounts might not be able to compete with incentives credit card companies can afford to offer.

[lay785]

Do you truly believe all these bonus cashback, services, features, extra year warranty, purchase protection, and ability to charge-back are FREE? YOU are the one paying for all these crap, and even you don't want these you have no choice

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

What do you mean if I "dont want these" - why in the world would any sane person not want "cashback" and an "extra year warranty"........ wtf are you smoking.

Have you ever asked for a "cash price" before making a purchase? I do it all the time and when the merchant provides a cash discount it easily beats any cash back or other features I might receive from using a credit card.

So... your "totally free" credit card is costing you in the form of more expensive products across the board.

Although I don't do much shopping with Bitcoin, apparently there is a company (eGifter) offering 3% cash back when purchasing their gift cards with Bitcoin instead of traditional methods. I expect to see more companies take this approach as Bitcoin gains traction.

Oh really so walmart gives discounts for cash payments vs credit cards? what about amazon? what about newegg?
If you buy amazon gift cards from certain stores you can get 10% cashback. How can cash compete with that?

I get a minimum of 2% cashback on all my purchases, some stores get 5-10% off. Unless the store offers such large percentages off youre better off using a cc and getting a cashback + benefits.

Umm... no, those particular stores that you've mentioned do not give cash discounts. I'm mainly talking about local shops owned by local folks.

Of course I use a credit card with cash back when appropriate (such as when I shop at any of the stores you've mentioned). Yet, I've made several large purchases at other (local) stores where I was able to get a much better deal after the cash discount.

Perhaps you would like to share how to get 10% cash back on Amazon gift cards, as I am a frequent customer.

For a while amex was offering 10% off all purchases at officemax on "Amex Open" cards. You could just purchase gift cards and youd get 10% back. They recently changed the terms for the card and removed this. I havent checked for the new methods of doing this yet but Im sure there are certain cards that can be used to buy gift cards for large discounts at retail stores.

[lay785]

Credit cards are awful. Identity theft is awful. Chargebacks are awful. A whole industry being dedicated to credit card fraud is awful and unnecessary. Merchants being forbidden to pass the cost of the credit cards onto their consumers directly is awful.

Cash is easily lost, stolen, destroyed.

We need something much better. We have something much better.

Troll harder.

I was talking about what impact certain companies might have on the bitcoin price now that they accept payment via bitcoin.

I pointed out that without any discount in price there are no financial incentives to use bitcoins if you have a rewards credit card.

[lay785]

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

Not only will merchants begin to offer bitcoin discounts because of the lower overhead compared to cc's but as A. Antonopoulus explains once the rising (deflationary) value of bitcoin is recognized by merchants they will have as much incentive to obtain bitcoins vs. fiat as hoarders have and will discount bitcoin prices accordingly.

I hope you are correct. newegg are being "great greedy guts" for not offering any discounts yet saving substantially on fees.

To get a discount at the moment can you keep your items in cart and only checkout and pay when bitcoins rise for a few minutes above current pricing

[Searing]

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

Not only will merchants begin to offer bitcoin discounts because of the lower overhead compared to cc's but as A. Antonopoulus explains once the rising (deflationary) value of bitcoin is recognized by merchants they will have as much incentive to obtain bitcoins vs. fiat as hoarders have and will discount bitcoin prices accordingly.

I hope you are correct. newegg are being "great greedy guts" for not offering any discounts yet saving substantially on fees.

To get a discount at the moment can you keep your items in cart and only checkout and pay when bitcoins rise for a few minutes above current pricing

that is an idea.....buy bitcoin on coinbase...hope/wait for next rise (the usd you bought btc for at least mentally was for the old say laptop purchase on newegg) ...bide your time...

viola ..you have taken the usd you would have paid for the laptop on newegg.com but you waited..if really lucky btc goes up 1/3 on this set aside usd for a laptop..you make a killing

(too much planning)

but hey it is possilbe (if you are all like us and believe btc will go up ) kinda a btc 'faith/growth' kinda deal 'washing' your USD you'd use to buy laptop anyway in more valuable (hopefully) btc when you pull the trigger and get it from newegg...call it "get a coupon for ??>?  off via btc timing"

again I impulse buy so it won't work...for those of you with OCD it will work just grand......

Searing

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[bangersdad]

I have received a letter all the way from Japan this morning - informing me of the GOX bankruptcy proceedings.

But the funniest thing is that it gives Karpeles full name......Marie Mark Karpeles  

[yrtrnc]

Are we bullish yet?

[ErisDiscordia]

great post

This is the best post I have ever seen on BTCTalk. Quoting for posterirty. Aminorex, do you post in the economics sub-forum? I haven't spent much time there, but would like to have more discussions like the one above. Also do you recommend any reading sources (books or blogs)?

That's why I asked aminorex if he would consider having his own thread for his musings and the insights of his monkey. He declined citing his unwillingness to maintain it. I'd actually do that for him if he wanted to. He provides very complex and stimulating thoughts and models which are well worth considering.

On the other hand Jorges trust in the competence and good-will of the central planners is equal parts adorable and terrifying 

[lay785]

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

Not only will merchants begin to offer bitcoin discounts because of the lower overhead compared to cc's but as A. Antonopoulus explains once the rising (deflationary) value of bitcoin is recognized by merchants they will have as much incentive to obtain bitcoins vs. fiat as hoarders have and will discount bitcoin prices accordingly.

I hope you are correct. newegg are being "great greedy guts" for not offering any discounts yet saving substantially on fees.

To get a discount at the moment can you keep your items in cart and only checkout and pay when bitcoins rise for a few minutes above current pricing

that is an idea.....buy bitcoin on coinbase...hope/wait for next rise (the usd you bought btc for at least mentally was for the old say laptop purchase on newegg) ...bide your time...

viola ..you have taken the usd you would have paid for the laptop on newegg.com but you waited..if really lucky btc goes up 1/3 on this set aside usd for a laptop..you make a killing

(too much planning)

but hey it is possilbe (if you are all like us and believe btc will go up ) kinda a btc 'faith/growth' kinda deal 'washing' your USD you'd use to buy laptop anyway in more valuable (hopefully) btc when you pull the trigger and get it from newegg...call it "get a coupon for ??>?  off via btc timing"

again I impulse buy so it won't work...for those of you with OCD it will work just grand......

Searing

You are quite right. that would in all likelihood work. I impulse buy as well so I wouldnt have the patience necessary for this method :p

However you have potentially found a reason why bitcoin can be more financially beneficial for consumers even with no clear discounts. Good job!

[Erdogan]

So today we had two major retailers announce that they're taking bitcoin and we're now lower value than we were 24 hours ago. This market is brutal.

As many people have pointed out already, those major retailers announced that they are taking dollars -- that will come from the sale of bitcoins, mostly by bitcoin enthusiasts.  So those news may give bitcoin more visibility, but it is questionable whether they will expand the number of bitcoin owners, and they imply more coins moving from hoards into the market.

And, anyway, those news are irrelevant to the Chinese traders -- who seem to be leading the current drop.

Merchant adoption is the next step towards global acceptance after the initial investment / speculation phase. It's the next logical step and it's a good sign.

They are not taking dollars, they are taking Bitcoins. And not all of the merchants are selling 100% of the Bitcoins back to dollars by the way.

When people start to realize how easy crazy is to buy things in locally and the internet without the need of giving credit card or bank information to anyone acceptance is going to increase. It's the next natural / logical step, credit cards are a thing of the past and obsolete.

Interesting points. However I still cannot understand why someone would pay with bitcoins if rewards credit cards offer bonus cashback + services and features.
eg. many companies add an extra year warranty + some have purchase protection if item gets stolen/breaks within 90 days + protection from sellers who dont send quality goods and refuse to make good on the purchase and many more features.

Some of these benefits coupled with extra cash back (eg. I have a card that gives 2% cashback on all purchases) wont exactly make people flock to bitcoin unless they have something to hide or are paranoid and want to be "anonymous" (as if the nsa cant track you anyway...).

P.S. Of course there is a use for someone who cant get their hands on a credit card with features like those mentioned above (most people probably can though).

Some merchant have something for sale for 0.98 BTC: I see no reason why you can not pay 1 BTC, and seconds after get 0.02 BTC back from the merchant, if this is an offer and you agree. But what would be the point? It is so fun receiving money?

[spooderman]

[madmat]

You need to use your bitcoins to buy a new camera.

[Erdogan]

Inflation and hyperinflation are a big inconvenience, waste a lot of time, make things inefficient and stressful; but people can finda ways to adapt and survive, and the country continues to function without becoming a Mad Max world.

I suspect deflation will predominate for some time.  Presently the bankers and administration seek to undermine the dollar to boost exports and inflate risk assets, but collapsing productivity and debt expansion in Europe and Japan are making the U.S. look healthy in contrast, which is likely to push the dollar back up relative to other majors. These are not
mutually exclusive because all the majors are inflating their currencies massively, in tandem:  They all have far more debt than ithey can service, so money has to get cheaper and cheaper (within the domestic market no less than it needs to do the same) in Europe and Japan.  Thus bankers can carry incredible sums on their balance sheets, to bid up risk assets through a series of proxies.  Each rentier skimming from this chain drains off another fraction of the debt, which the public is obligated in theory to pay off one day.  The result is a class system in which 0.1% of the population gains the bulk of the benefit of economic productivity gains and public spending, A shrinking middle class carries a rapidly increasing tax burden and debt load, and a rapidly growing underclass is kept placid with government benefits. 

Things go on until they can't.  Exponentially increasing debt in the presence of declining economic growth, ultimately, economic retraction, will end catastrophically, if it is not managed.  Absent a change in energy technology, increasing productivity is not a long-term option.  The only way to manage this landing is calculated, systematic debt destruction.

The money is debt.  It is made of debt.  It is a token of debt.  It is debt which can only be repaid by creating more debt.  The money itself is the very root of the problem.
Either the system implodes catastrophically, or it reforms itself.  In either case, debt-based money will cease to exist as it does today.

The reason is because money (or bitcoin, or gold) is not real wealth, it is only a token that society will accept and exchange for real wealth.  The exchange is so smooth and universal that, for personal or corporate finances, it is justifiable to treat money the same as wealth.  But when considering a whole nation, or the world, one must ignore the money and focus only on the real wealth.

Real wealth being goods and services, command of labor, materials and supplies, energy.  But you are ignoring the bulk of the wealth held by society.  Most of the value in society is in the interconnections between people, the transactions, transfers, obligations and acquitals which they make.  Human capital is not just a matter of skills, but of relationships.   Many of those relationships, often the most economically important ones, are mediated by money.  Ignoring money would cause you to ignore much of the value in society.

No matter how much  money the government creates of derstroys, confiscates or gives away, the real weath of the country will not change.  Fiddling with the finacial system, the currency, and the money supply can only change the distribution of wealth among the citizens

If the government destroyed all currency and all balances on account, I think half the people in the U.S. would be dead in a month.  Supply chains would collapse, and under modern just-in-time inventory management practices, mass starvation, epidemics, and gang warfare would be pervasive.

The distribution of wealth among the citizens is obviously of crucial importance to the function of society.  If instead, the U.S. confiscated the currency and balances on account, and handed them all to Dennis Rodman,  the result would be indistinguishable from destroying them.
 

in a crisis most people need to take money out of investment funds and savings in order to survive; so the value of bitcoin is likely to drop, due to diminished demand, rather than increase.  

You''re not doing that right.  Circulating currency is worth more than reserve currency.

When we say that money is not wealth, we do not talk about the value of the money as a system. It is clear that the practicality of money in trade is of immense value, and yes, the relations between the traders may be more important than the goods.

We point out that the money itself is not wealth. It has value because it can be traded for things and services, which is wealth. The consequence is that the volume of the money supply does not matter. I think even the neo-keynesians understand this. The printing is to force and bend the actors to invest more and consumers to spend more, not save. They do not understand that forcing the free market like this reduces output, in addition to a plethora of other negative effects.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[ChrisML]

I guess we be going back to $660 

[Mervyn_Pumpkinhead]

lol...."simpleton billionaires" "Stupid criminals"....lol.....pretty sure every single billionaire and probably most criminals are a lot smarter than you are.

"Most of the bitcoin cultists don't understand the psychology of criminals."..... but you do right? You have a deep understanding, dammit you understand them better than they understand themselves don't you? It's because you are so smart right? And the only reason you are still poor, still wasting your time trolling blogs in your parents basement, is because you have been unlucky right? The world is full of morons who just don't understand the deep insights you have to offer. One day, everyone will acknowledge your brilliance, because you just know how much smarter than everyone else you are. And the fact that you are a broke loser does not at all change that fact.

I get it.

Could you please tell me some more of your brilliant insights into the criminal mind? Please?

Oh and thank you for coming here and so brilliantly pointing out all we had missed. What would we do without you?

Actually you can do it later, i think i hear mummy telling you to clean your room.

Well "simpleton billionaires" are the last hope for bitcoin fanatics. Bitcoin needs the billionaires, who are dim-witted enough to actually buy it as an investment. If you ask me, then I think that the entire quest for Wall Street will fail, and even if there are some simpletons who have inherited their wealth, then they probably have advisers to help them.
I don't think that I'm a much smarter then the majority here. I think that I'm a little less blinded by greed, then the majority here.
You seem to know it as a fact that I'm poor and living in my parents basement. Care to explain?
I think that there are a lot of fools who dream of riches but who aren't ready to do any hard work for it. They aren't able to comprehend that wealth is only generated by that actual hard work. And if you gain wealth without doing any hard work, then you are abusing the hard work of others. That is why I'm more interested in the industrial sector, not the financial sector. I think that the modern financial world is inefficient and full of crooks with low moral fiber. That thought brought me to bitcoin, because bitcoin brought forward the idea, that the financial world needs an upgrade. And I still believe in this idea, just I don't believe in bitcoin. Bitcoin is too simple to handle the complexity of modern global trade and economics. This idea needs something A LOT better then bitcoin to actually change things for the better. Bitcoin is just a gimmick that is the last hope for the uneducated and lazy to become rich. I'm waiting for something more advanced and I'm quite sure that I will see it in my lifetime. Till then, I'm not very fond that the cultists and fanatical fools of bitcoin are smearing this entire idea of financial evolution with their blind greed.

[Searing]

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

Not only will merchants begin to offer bitcoin discounts because of the lower overhead compared to cc's but as A. Antonopoulus explains once the rising (deflationary) value of bitcoin is recognized by merchants they will have as much incentive to obtain bitcoins vs. fiat as hoarders have and will discount bitcoin prices accordingly.

I hope you are correct. newegg are being "great greedy guts" for not offering any discounts yet saving substantially on fees.

To get a discount at the moment can you keep your items in cart and only checkout and pay when bitcoins rise for a few minutes above current pricing

that is an idea.....buy bitcoin on coinbase...hope/wait for next rise (the usd you bought btc for at least mentally was for the old say laptop purchase on newegg) ...bide your time...

viola ..you have taken the usd you would have paid for the laptop on newegg.com but you waited..if really lucky btc goes up 1/3 on this set aside usd for a laptop..you make a killing

(too much planning)

but hey it is possilbe (if you are all like us and believe btc will go up ) kinda a btc 'faith/growth' kinda deal 'washing' your USD you'd use to buy laptop anyway in more valuable (hopefully) btc when you pull the trigger and get it from newegg...call it "get a coupon for ??>?  off via btc timing"

again I impulse buy so it won't work...for those of you with OCD it will work just grand......

Searing

You are quite right. that would in all likelihood work. I impulse buy as well so I wouldnt have the patience necessary for this method :p

However you have potentially found a reason why bitcoin can be more financially beneficial for consumers even with no clear discounts. Good job!

er only works for us in the 'bitcoin cult' that have drunk the kool aid and are waiting for the 'bitcoin mothership" ie amazon and ebay to drink said kool aid

but yeah should probably make the equiv of a xmas fund and treat myself in this manner for xmas laptop ..if BTC stays flat I saved some USD for the laptop
if it goes up ....it will be hopefully like getting 1/2 price (knock wood)

silly hairless primate humans ...we are the reality tv of the universe likely watched in billion of alien worlds....we certainly would get the ratings!

(also explains why they stay far far away....)

Searing

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[ShroomsKit]

The train stopped moving. The auction gave it a small push up. Then it slightly crashed because oooommmg 1 winner. Now we're stuck. I might be wrong but i have the feeling people need a specific reason to buy more. Another deadline that turns out bullish. Obviously amazing news about big companies means nothing anymore.

I don't see anything bullish happening soon so my guess is we will go down again. A big dump followed by panic. Or a new round of hot steamy FUD. People soon will be looking hard for a reason to dump.
People are looking for a reason to sell. Not to buy. And that reason for selling can be almost anything. The reason for buying, almost nothing.
And i hate to sound like Tera so i hope i am completely wrong.