VERITASEUM DISCUSSION THREAD

[toknormal]

Great to see the success this coin has had.

1. It's not a "coin". It's a token - huge difference.

2. It "would" be great if its success was based on quantifiable fundamentals as opposed to Clif High's fanbase buying it and Gliss complying with under-reporting the marketcap by a factor of 50

[swamps]

.^^ This dude is hilarious, so much so i won't add you to iggy land, just in the hope that i get to read one of your posts first thing in the morning.
Thanks buddy you're a real tonic.

[majestymage]

i really don't know how i missed this project. damn

[AltCity]

i really don't know how i missed this project. damn

Don't beat yourself up too much: a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concepts.
https://medium.com/@nickadamsjudge/no-ico-market-caps-are-not-crazy-the-reason-is-basic-economics-ae4f11ca0114
if you study the volatility when it is low you can enter. I track the Median price in my sig - it is a good start of where to enter or exit if you are trading.

[azmojo]

I don't mention other tokens on this forum.

Back to the #VERI topic. Enough about this other stuff.

You did mention other token. You mentioned Bitconnect when nobody else talked about it here. Bitconnect is obvious scam. If you feel good about making money on scam that will someday hurt many people, that is your decision. I will not touch it. Ponzi can collapse at any moment even when you are greedy and think it will keep go up.

I don't think Veritaseum is scamcoin but I didn't find value in it either. If someone feel different please explain the long term business.

Thanks.

Yes, I own BCC and have quadrupled my initial investment and recovered it, playing with house money. I see how you can rent out your BCC but I don't see any way for anyone who doesn't have any to rent it. I guess the reason to rent it is if you needed it for a master node or something. I know the bot uses the loaned BCC somehow. I don't see VERI using a scheme like that. I was looking for some other more legitimate purpose to setup a VERI lending pool which I am interested in doing if there is a real business opportunity there.

[JuanHungLo]

IMHO, these recent Reggie tweets are massive:

ReggieMiddleton‏ @ReggieMiddleton 29m29 minutes ago

ReggieMiddleton Retweeted Crypto Charles

Customer made large $VERI purchase, retaining us to "VERItize" medical biz, explore biz proceses thru blockchain

ReggieMiddleton‏ @ReggieMiddleton 27m27 minutes ago

ReggieMiddleton Retweeted Crypto Charles

This customer is VERI politically connected. We may reference our $VERI solution against Obama/Trumpcare plans

[toknormal]

.^^ This dude is hilarious

Here's some more 'hilarious' commentary for you:

Close Brothers plc Marketcap is around 2.6 Billion GBP. The UK monetary base (M0) is around 500 Billion GBP* which would put Close Brothers cap at just below half a percent of that. Close Brothers has 139 years of  trading and returns behind it. I cite it simply because it they are a going concern with a measurable value in terms of both marketcap and viability, a long history, comparable trading sectors to the "Clif High" pumps of VERI (securities exchange) and PPT (invoice factoring) and stable both in operation and valuation. They're not huge - they only employ 3000 people, so no Goldman Sachs (34,000 employees).

If you want a comparison at the absolute extreme, take British Petroleum: marketcap is around 114 Billion GBP = 20% of UK M0. (A more realistic monetary base for the UK is M4=around £2.1 Trillion, but being conservative in all appraisals).

Now lets consider the prospect for Token to Coin exchange rate of VERI in this context:

Veritasium marketcap calculated by the most conservative of means is currently around 1.8% of its monetary base (Ethereum) with another 98% of its actual value excluded from this calculation. If we (properly) take the "value contained in blockchain" cap against its native monetary base it's at 100% ! (The reason I use Token-to-Coin exchange rate is because as more fiat denominated capital moves into crypto, some will go to the monetary base and some will go to assets denominated in that monetary base. So the ratio gives us an early insight into whether a particular non-monetary asset is over or under valued by comparing it with its 'price-discovered' equivalents in the legacy sector).

Lets be generous. Let's take Veritasium's value as a proportion of ALL cryptocurrency market capitalisations, in which case Veritaseum's reported marketcap is still around 0.5% of ALL capitalisations. i.e. the same size as 139 year old Close Brothers proportionally. But remember, there's still that 98% of marketcap sitting in the issuer's wallet and is "in circulation" (being the wallet who's contents are currently being traded in OTC trades in order to capitalise the issuer's corporate equity with fiat). When we properly include that in the calculation, Veritaseum's marketcap arrives at a cool:

$21 Billion $USD

i.e. Around 10 times that of Close Brothers plc.

No doubt there is upside for Veritaseum in terms of its dollar value. The more significant question is, is there upside in terms of Bitcoin/Ether value ?

So Where is The growth ?

Growth is a very general term. It can mean size, value, market liquidity, subscribers, transactions, adoption - anything. It doesn't necessarily mean "Token to Coin exchange ratio" which happens to be the priority of most small Veritaseum investors. VERI will possibly grow in some of those aspects, the question is how and to which stakeholder's benefit ?. Here's my analysis of that:

 • liquidity will grow (more buyers will be found for the contents of Reggie's [company's] wallet) which will help any large holders wanting to cash out to fiat

 • the fiat denominated market capitalisation of Reggie's company will grow (because as those 98 Million tokens get distributed, all the fiat received goes straight into a bank account that does not back VERI's value but does increase the equity value of the "company that Reggie Middleton works for")

 • the ecosystem will grow (because as Reggie rightly points out..."Metcalfe's Law and all that")

 • the token to coin ratio with fall and VERI holders will lose value against crypto monetary bases like Ether and Bitcoin (because that ratio has to fall to pay for all of the above gains. The big one being liquidity. The next one being compensating for the the huge disparity between perceived marketcap and real marketcap)

 • there is a speculative offset to the falling exchange ratio which is revenue or asset gains from use of the token, however this is as yet unquantifiable and its sources unidentifiable in anything other than a very general sense

TL;DR Conclusion:

 • If you want to accumulate dollars using VERI as a vehicle, possibly hold as there is more mileage in all of crypto and VERI will be riding the wave
 • If you want to accumulate Bitcoin or Ether, take profits now cos this is as good as it gets according to history :-)

Sources:

BP Market Cap:
https://ycharts.com/companies/BP/market_cap

Monetary Base (UK)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MBM0UKM

Close Brothers:
https://ycharts.com/companies/CBGPY

Total Cryptocurrency Capitalisation:
http://coinmarketcap.com/charts/

Veritaseum full Marketcap by Blockchain Issued Tokens
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/views/market-cap-by-total-supply/

* The Bank of England stopped publishing M0 in 2006. The published M4 money supply is around £2 Trillion. (Source:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/Documents/bankstats/2017/jun/taba2.2.3.xls
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/pages/bankstats/current/default.aspx)

The FED's figure of £500 Billion as a nominal base is around 6 times the 'notes and coins' quantity often quoted as M0 in other places).

[azmojo]

2. It "would" be great if its success was based on quantifiable fundamentals as opposed to Clif High's fanbase buying it and Gliss complying with under-reporting the marketcap by a factor of 50

What does it matter what the market cap is reported at? Why the obsession?

[Dorky]

I have made my original deposit BACK from when I started in May. Throwing the "SCAM" word around when you have not tested a thing is foolish.

I don't mention other tokens on this forum. But, someone asked and I have an experienced example. I am three months in and have made profit on top. LOOK at their business model.
A bot that TRADES bitcoin and pays INTEREST back to me...DAILY. That is a really cool deal.

Back to the #VERI topic. Enough about this other stuff.

Did you make back your original deposit with the help of a bunch of people joining from your reference, or just on your own without reference?

[Dorky]

1. It's not a "coin". It's a token - huge difference.

2. It "would" be great if its success was based on quantifiable fundamentals as opposed to Clif High's fanbase buying it and Gliss complying with under-reporting the marketcap by a factor of 50

1. No, it's not even a token. "Token" is just a moniker.

2. Do you know "market cap" is an accounting-related term? Just the same as "authorized capital" and "paid-up capital" are accounting-related terms. Go look them up if you don't believe.

I would really like you to refer me a link whereby it talks about "authorized capital" and "share capital" being related strictly to corporate equity only.
Because as far I as know it, accounting involves considering "authorized capital" and "paid-up capital" in its financial reporting too.
I tried looking up "corporate equity" just to be sure and I don't want to appear like an idiot because formal education is already many years behind me just to be sure I don't miss out any updates, but I couldn't find anything related to your "corporate equity" term. Do you mean to say "corporate finance"? I strongly suspect you are just making things up from your self-studies.

What does it matter what the market cap is reported at? Why the obsession?

He wants to imply that VERI is extremely overpriced.

[Dorky]

TL;DR Conclusion:

 • If you want to accumulate dollars using VERI as a vehicle, possibly hold as there is more mileage in all of crypto and VERI will be riding the wave
 • If you want to accumulate Bitcoin or Ether, take profits now cos this is as good as it gets according to history :-)

Nope, wrong. And you are giving very bad advice.

Dollars are no longer part of any consideration going forward, unless you don't believe in inflation, or high inflation, or hyperinflation.

Dollars are also no longer part of any consideration unless you do not believe the blockchain + cryptocurrency industry is going to totally displace the current existing monetary system.

If I want to accumulate Bitcoin or Ether (Ether by the way is not a wise investment, even Vitalik Buterin implied the same, unless you intend to say he is not as smart as you, thus should not be part of the consideration), then I should seriously consider VERI all the more and continue to buy-n-hold.

But you have just made a big mistake saying it here advising people to "take profits now cos this is as good as it gets according to history" because months if not years from now, this statement of yours will be used against you.

Edit:
If a gullible person listened to your way of thinking and refrain from participating in VERI project even from the start, he would have missed out tons of opportunity now.
Your argument on the "market cap" isn't less valid back at the start of VERI as it is today, I am sure, which goes to mean if you started telling people to take profits now (relative to Bitcoin accumulation), you would be totally wrong all the way until now. But of course now being now and not the future, nobody can validate your advice until we reach the future, in which what you say today will be used against you.

[toknormal]

What does it matter what the market cap is reported at? Why the obsession?

Because marketcap is price.

Step 1. Imagine you were offered a 1000th share in a new Audi A3 for 8$. What would you do ?....you'd have no clue until you multiplied 8 x 1000 to determine what the seller valued their vehicle at, in this case $8000. The book value of an Audi A3 is $40k, so you'd conclude the deal was good and make the purchase.

Step 2. Now imagine there were actually 5000 shares and unknown to you the balance of 4000 were being sold to other buyers "under the counter". What would happen when this information became widely available ?

1. The value of the car would stay the same (Book value still = $40k)
2. The market (i.e. "you") would immediately revalue your unit share down by 80% to account for the newly reported unit liquidity

That's the recipe by which Veritaseum has gained such a high Token to Coin ratio at the moment.

Now consider the Audi A3 example in terms of "marketcaps" (i.e. we see the value of the car as the 'marketcap' of the issued shares. Never mind whether they're circulating or not, it's the 'issued' shares that we're interested in).

Go back to step 1. When you originally were offered the price of 8$ per share, if you now use the correct unit supply factor to calculate the price of the Audi A3 you'll arrive at the full $40k. (Your $8 unit price x 5000). You compare that to a VW Gold at $30k and decide it's a bad deal.

What swung your decision in each case was the marketcap of your asset (=price of the car). That's the only handle you had in each case on the value of what you were being offered. You calculated that in the first case you were being offered an asset at below market price, in the second case you were being offered an asset above market price.

This is why Ethereum blockchain issuers do this trick of "holding back" tokens. It's nothing to do with garnering network effect and everything to do with passing risk from the issuer to the investor because the issuer is left holding all the capital while the investor is left holding bags of worthless tokens that took the issuer about 2 minutes to create.

In a classic equity exchange this doesn't happen, because your invested capital is held by the company in which you own shares, so your shares are worth something even if the entrepreneurial idea is crap. In token investments however you don't get squat of the issuers equity, just a bunch of tokens backed by a few lines of code.

P.S. Mined coins are a whole different case which is why I made a distinction between "coins" and "tokens" in a previous post. With mined coins, issuance is decentralised and an ICO entity cannot determine the distribution.

[toknormal]

because months if not years from now, this statement of yours will be used against you.

Feel free to join the queue.

[Dorky]

because months if not years from now, this statement of yours will be used against you.

Feel free to join the queue.

It will be my pleasure.

[Dorky]

A car is not an asset, fyi.

This is why Ethereum blockchain issuers do this trick of "holding back" tokens. It's nothing to do with garnering network effect and everything to do with passing risk from the issuer to the investor because the issuer is left holding all the capital while the investor is left holding bags of worthless tokens that took the issuer about 2 minutes to create.

Your main concern is not about the market cap, and not about worthless tokens. Your main concern is your trust on Reggie.

In a classic equity exchange this doesn't happen, because your invested capital is held by the company in which you own shares, so your shares are worth something even if the entrepreneurial idea is crap. In token investments however you don't get squat of the issuers equity, just a bunch of tokens backed by a few lines of code.

How can your shares be worth something even if the entrepreneurial idea is crap? Do you know that being an investor means you are responsible for both the assets and liabilities? Your shares may be worth zero if the idea is crap. There is no token involved. "Token" is just a moniker. With shares, the investors may not get squat of the issuers' equity too. Go look up "common shares" and "preferred shares". Or do you mean to say, the issuers' share of profit? Indeed, I agree. This is why participating in Veritaseum's project is NOT an investment. And it was never marketed as such. But then that never stops you (who I think, should be a fact-based person) from continue to give opinion based on investment line of thought.

You try to imply a few lines of code has no utility value, which of course is wrong. The lines of code can be compiled into machine language to feed "on/off" signals into electronics to run machinery or to perform useful economic/utility functions.


Having half-knowledge of something and yet stubborn and strongly opinionated in the wrong way is very dangerous.

[toknormal]

How can your shares be worth something even if the entrepreneurial idea is crap?

 • Dorky buys a paper company for 10cents and renames it "Dorky VERI Defence League (DVDL) Inc"
 • £1000 of Dorky's hard earned money is exchanged for 1000 shares issued at $1 each, all in Dorky's name
 • DVDL Inc share capital is deposited in bank account in the name of DVLC

Lets now check the balance sheet at opening of trading:

Dorky Balance Sheet:


Assets:
Bank Account (Opening) = +£1000
Bank Account (Closing) = 0.00

Shares Account = +1000 Shares in DVDL

Liabilities: Zero

Net Assets:
===============
+1000 Shares in DVDL

DVDL Inc

Assets:
Bank Account = £1000

Liabilities:
Shareholders Equity (Dorky): £1000


*****************************************************************************
So, in the above example, you still had £1000, even after you'd invested in your shares and before trading had commenced because your shares are backed by the share capital you invested in them. DVDL Inc had £1000 in the bank but since it's all owned by shareholders there's no net assets at the commencement of trading. (How it should be because it didn't do anything to generate any revenue yet).

Compare that with the token offering "Wild West". When you pay money to Reggie for "tokens", you do not get shares in Reggie's company. What happens is:

 • the tokens acquire a market value
 • that in turn assigns an asset value to the other 98 Million that Reggie's company still holds
 • but *all* the investment from the ICO and *all* of the investment by Bank of Jamaica (fiat and crypto) is wholy owned by the issuer, not by the investors so none of it is available to back the token value as it is with the equity example above.

Which is why most of these ICO, made in 20 seconds, hot air token assets are going to....



...while their issuers are home and dry already, sitting on millions of "donated" monetary assets not owed back to their contributors as they would be in an equity issuing scenario.

[Dorky]

So Where is The growth ?

Growth is a very general term. It can mean size, value, market liquidity, subscribers, transactions, adoption - anything. It doesn't necessarily mean "Token to Coin exchange ratio" which happens to be the priority of most small Veritaseum investors. VERI will possibly grow in some of those aspects, the question is how and to which stakeholder's benefit ?. Here's my analysis of that:

 • liquidity will grow (more buyers will be found for the contents of Reggie's [company's] wallet) which will help any large holders wanting to cash out to fiat - nope, wrong

 • the fiat denominated market capitalisation of Reggie's company will grow (because as those 98 Million tokens get distributed, all the fiat received goes straight into a bank account that does not back VERI's value but does increase the equity value of the "company that Reggie Middleton works for") - nope, wrong, you have no proof

 • the ecosystem will grow (because as Reggie rightly points out..."Metcalfe's Law and all that")

 • the token to coin ratio with fall and VERI holders will lose value against crypto monetary bases like Ether and Bitcoin (because that ratio has to fall to pay for all of the above gains. The big one being liquidity. The next one being compensating for the the huge disparity between perceived marketcap and real marketcap) - nope, wrong. wrong on referring to ether bitcoin being a monetary base. wrong on implying VERI is a competitor to ether/bitcoin just as it is wrong to say ether is competitor to bitcoin.

 • there is a speculative offset to the falling exchange ratio which is revenue or asset gains from use of the token, however this is as yet unquantifiable and its sources unidentifiable in anything other than a very general sense - simply your personal opinion parlayed as "fact"

[Dorky]

DVDL Inc

Assets:
Bank Account = +£1000

Liabilities:
Owed to shareholders (Dorky): £1000 Share capital

Net Assets (DVDL):
===============
Zero

I truly LOL in this...



1. There is something wrong with your balance sheet accounting. I am not going to tell you where it is wrong because you are strongly opinionated in the wrong way and you won't believe nor agree with what I say. I suggest you to refer your fictional DVDL Inc accounting to a certified accountant to point out the mistake. You are truly making a total idiot out of yourself.

2. I am not investing in any shares or companies. I am only participating/contributing in Veritaseum because I believe its project can improve existing economic structure tremendously by incorporating the blockchain technology.

[Dorky]

• but *all* the investment from the ICO and *all* of the investment by Bank of Jamaica (fiat and crypto) is wholy owned by the issuer, not by the investors so none of it is available to back the token value as it is with the equity example above.

1. This isn't an investment.
2. The token bought is not an investment, but to access the Veritaseum platform to commit to productive economic functions that displace traditional middlemen structure.


You can say Veri is an investment just as I can say you are a playboy and an adulterer.

[Dorky]

It is a source of happiness that I participated only in Veritaseum, Populous, and Rialto.ai, and EtherDelta's top 3 trading happens to be also the same tokens that I participated in, i.e. VERI, PPT, XRL.

And the best part is, I identified XRL in my own merit without the help of Clif High's report or any 3rd-party analysis, and despite not being as heavily promoted as VERI and PPT (not even close, as in no bitcointalk topic and no slack channel, yet sold out within several days of pre-ICO) that it still manage to get to the top 3, if not top 5, for days.

XRL tops many other heavily-promoted, hot/popular ICO tokens in trading volume.

Check Rialto.ai out and learn what they do. You may be impressed.