Stunna (OP)
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Primedice.com, Stake.com
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June 29, 2015, 04:10:11 AM
Last edit: June 29, 2015, 04:33:01 AM by Stunna |
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The hufflepuff report as promised: https://medium.com/@Stunna/breaking-the-house-63f1021a3e6dDefinitely not the most interesting PD story, but probably the most expensive. It's proof of our naivety but also proof that we chose to play fair and lose a significant amount of money rather than attempt to cheat. |
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Quickseller
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June 29, 2015, 04:32:02 AM |
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Breaking the house How Primedice was exploited for $1M in Bitcoin This is the story of how we lost around $1 million worth of bitcoin to a hacker who exploited our online casino’s RNG system. This happened last year, but we’ve decided to share our experience for transparency and so that others can learn from our mistakes. August 2014 Shortly after the launch of the third version of Primedice, our team faced an adversary that challenged the existence of our website. Our team had nearly two years of experience building bitcoin gaming sites, however none of our founders had any coding ability. We were under heavy pressure to avoid further delays and released after a short week of closed beta testing. The heist began immediately after launch with two unusual players, Nappa & Kane. We noticed unusual betting patterns from both those accounts. Kane was automatically cashed out, we reviewed Nappa’s bets and thought they were highly unusual but could find no wrong-doing and cashed him out after a delay and a brief email exchange September 2014 After getting spooked by his delayed cashout on Nappa, the exploiter waited a few weeks and created a new account named “Hufflepuff”. Hufflepuff was the largest bettor Primedice had ever seen, he was often seen betting upwards of $8000 worth of bitcoin every second for hours on end. Our entire team was shocked that Hufflepuff continued to beat the house edge (1%) and stack up more and more profit over time. We were highly skeptical of his winnings and were forced to hold his cashouts time and time again to investigate and each time our developers could not find any wrong-doing. We heavily explored what we thought was every possibility, ran simulations and did the math and came to the conclusion that he was just incredibly lucky. The Discovery About two days after sending his final withdrawal placing him above 2037 profit on the Hufflepuff account alone, our main developer detected the exploit after we found a handful of accounts sharing the same server seed. To understand how Hufflepuff beat our system, one must understand how our provably fair system (RNG) works. A user is shown an encrypted random value (the server seed) before they bet and they must also submit their own random value (the client seed). These two random values are combined and used to determine win or lose. The random encrypted random value used for the bet then is shown to the user after the bet so that they can be guaranteed that their bet is not rigged. You can find the detailed and in-depth explanations of provably fair here: https://primedice.com/verify and http://dicesites.com/provably-fairPart of the functionality of our site is that we have to give out decrypted server seeds (to assure users no bet manipulation has occurred) and put a new random seed in place, essentially trashing the old revealed seed. Hufflepuff found a way to “confuse” our server, and made it give out a decrypted server seed that was also an active seed. This was done by sending it more requests than it could handle in a small time period, think hundreds of requests in under a second. The result of this is that he knew all the information required to corroborate the outcomes of his bets. He knew whether if he would win or lose, and could wager accordingly. We figured this out after frantically checking our servers after a eureka moment. We suspected something could have been going on and eventually realized the possibility of a timing attack described above. Our database had seeds that were both inactive and in use at the same time all connected to Hufflepuff. Along these “Schrödinger” seeds existed many seemingly unused seeds connected to the same accounts, indicative of the rapid fire of requests needed to obtain these. Déjà vu Unfortunately we detected this exploit after cashing out Hufflepuff and his handful of accounts 2400+ coins (roughly $1M at the time). Given the nature of Bitcoin there wasn’t much we could do but take it on the chin. We reached out to Hufflepuff via his bitcointalk forum account and demanded the return of the coins, however this backfired unbelievably hard. It turned out that our developer had improperly patched the glitch. In response to our message, Hufflepuff created a new account named Robbinhood and proceeded to rapidly win 2000+ additional bitcoins using a work-around to the patch. He was unable to cashout more than 50 or 60 coins this time around as our site hot-wallet was drained. Shortly after he privately sent us this message which was preceded with the dox of a primedice employee: “Your offer is declined. Your demands are laughable. I’m happy to walk away and leave you be, but if you’re going to take this further, then so will I. I don’t think you want this to go further. I actually enjoy this shit. Your move. Oh, and by the way, there are some pending withdrawals that you need to process.” And that was the day the house didn’t win… Evidence for transparency and investigative purposes Hufflepuff’s deposit address: https://blockchain.info/address/1BiPXmDrHm7VXZnWy6NnW1ZbPc4dcpfkH5His primary withdrawal address: https://blockchain.info/address/14iS2UvcLK33xkC1K1qL1dhEbp49aiNfNpEmail: hufflepuff@anonymousspeech.comRobbinHood withdrawals: https://blockchain.info/address/14HQ67ZhmATviHi9RdYhbUriAGSFmJpYoB— Note — : Nappa/Kane were two other usernames used early on, amongst many others. Kane’s Withdrawal address: https://blockchain.info/address/18dMBap634aESPTeD3FGcAgJ2S9n4qtBTZNappa Deposit address: https://blockchain.info/address/16h9ggSzUWdvagEJdNvWVYiUkytw6SJgiBNappa email: kritonian@outlook.comSome IP’s used between accounts: 184.75.221.106, 184.75.223.34 , 151.224.50.156 , 76.179.22.16 Any information that leads to the return of the coins from this incident will be greatly rewarded. We invite you to analyze the above bitcoin addresses and find out where the bulk of the coins ended up if you have the skills. It’s also important to note that this incident is proof of the strength of our integrity and provably fair system. If at any point we attempted to rig Hufflepuff’s bets (skip nonces etc) we would have instantly realized he was cheating and we would have 2400+ more bitcoins. Hufflepuff only took a brief break from playing after we halved our max bet, I believe he would have cleaned us had we never discovered what was going on. Sorry for the long read, Stunna & Primedice Very interesting. Although it is too bad that more technical details were not revealed, and that it is too bad that he made away with so much money, it is nice to see that at least one bitcoin related casino is operating honestly. I would be curious to know if such an exploit would have been possible on PD2. If not then do you think it might have been better to have never "upgraded" to PD3, and simply added additional features to PD2? Although it is really not anyone's business, I am sure that many people are very curious as to what the overall profitability is of both PD overall, and PD3. One thing that was notably missing from the report was the bitcointalk account names that you are aware of for the people in question. I have noticed that you apparently have not left any negative trust ratings referencing what could be concluded to be this incident (although to be fair, a single negative rating is far from worth a million plus dollars). I would also be curious to know if you have any leads as to who you think the perpetrator might be or any other related leads regarding him. |
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Stunna (OP)
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Primedice.com, Stake.com
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June 29, 2015, 04:35:37 AM
Last edit: June 29, 2015, 04:50:45 AM by Stunna |
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Very interesting. Although it is too bad that more technical details were not revealed, and that it is too bad that he made away with so much money, it is nice to see that at least one bitcoin related casino is operating honestly. I would be curious to know if such an exploit would have been possible on PD2. If not then do you think it might have been better to have never "upgraded" to PD3, and simply added additional features to PD2? Although it is really not anyone's business, I am sure that many people are very curious as to what the overall profitability is of both PD overall, and PD3. One thing that was notably missing from the report was the bitcointalk account names that you are aware of for the people in question. I have noticed that you apparently have not left any negative trust ratings referencing what could be concluded to be this incident (although to be fair, a single negative rating is far from worth a million plus dollars). I would also be curious to know if you have any leads as to who you think the perpetrator might be or any other related leads regarding him. PD2 used a weaker provably fair system that featured a daily secret thus making it impossible to perform this on there. The simple fix was making it so no two accounts could have the same server seed hash. Also, I had a decent idea of who it was but honestly I wasn't able to 100% confirm it and there is pretty much nothing non-violent I could do to recover the funds. I haven't quite reached my mob boss potential. If someone has the ability to figure out where the coins went, that would be cool. He probably mixed decently well though. |
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Quickseller
Copper Member
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Activity: 2870
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June 29, 2015, 05:02:32 AM |
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Breaking the house How Primedice was exploited for $1M in Bitcoin This is the story of how we lost around $1 million worth of bitcoin to a hacker who exploited our online casino’s RNG system. This happened last year, but we’ve decided to share our experience for transparency and so that others can learn from our mistakes. August 2014 Shortly after the launch of the third version of Primedice, our team faced an adversary that challenged the existence of our website. Our team had nearly two years of experience building bitcoin gaming sites, however none of our founders had any coding ability. We were under heavy pressure to avoid further delays and released after a short week of closed beta testing. The heist began immediately after launch with two unusual players, Nappa & Kane. We noticed unusual betting patterns from both those accounts. Kane was automatically cashed out, we reviewed Nappa’s bets and thought they were highly unusual but could find no wrong-doing and cashed him out after a delay and a brief email exchange September 2014 After getting spooked by his delayed cashout on Nappa, the exploiter waited a few weeks and created a new account named “Hufflepuff”. Hufflepuff was the largest bettor Primedice had ever seen, he was often seen betting upwards of $8000 worth of bitcoin every second for hours on end. Our entire team was shocked that Hufflepuff continued to beat the house edge (1%) and stack up more and more profit over time. We were highly skeptical of his winnings and were forced to hold his cashouts time and time again to investigate and each time our developers could not find any wrong-doing. We heavily explored what we thought was every possibility, ran simulations and did the math and came to the conclusion that he was just incredibly lucky. The Discovery About two days after sending his final withdrawal placing him above 2037 profit on the Hufflepuff account alone, our main developer detected the exploit after we found a handful of accounts sharing the same server seed. To understand how Hufflepuff beat our system, one must understand how our provably fair system (RNG) works. A user is shown an encrypted random value (the server seed) before they bet and they must also submit their own random value (the client seed). These two random values are combined and used to determine win or lose. The random encrypted random value used for the bet then is shown to the user after the bet so that they can be guaranteed that their bet is not rigged. You can find the detailed and in-depth explanations of provably fair here: https://primedice.com/verify and http://dicesites.com/provably-fairPart of the functionality of our site is that we have to give out decrypted server seeds (to assure users no bet manipulation has occurred) and put a new random seed in place, essentially trashing the old revealed seed. Hufflepuff found a way to “confuse” our server, and made it give out a decrypted server seed that was also an active seed. This was done by sending it more requests than it could handle in a small time period, think hundreds of requests in under a second. The result of this is that he knew all the information required to corroborate the outcomes of his bets. He knew whether if he would win or lose, and could wager accordingly. We figured this out after frantically checking our servers after a eureka moment. We suspected something could have been going on and eventually realized the possibility of a timing attack described above. Our database had seeds that were both inactive and in use at the same time all connected to Hufflepuff. Along these “Schrödinger” seeds existed many seemingly unused seeds connected to the same accounts, indicative of the rapid fire of requests needed to obtain these. Déjà vu Unfortunately we detected this exploit after cashing out Hufflepuff and his handful of accounts 2400+ coins (roughly $1M at the time). Given the nature of Bitcoin there wasn’t much we could do but take it on the chin. We reached out to Hufflepuff via his bitcointalk forum account and demanded the return of the coins, however this backfired unbelievably hard. It turned out that our developer had improperly patched the glitch. In response to our message, Hufflepuff created a new account named Robbinhood and proceeded to rapidly win 2000+ additional bitcoins using a work-around to the patch. He was unable to cashout more than 50 or 60 coins this time around as our site hot-wallet was drained. Shortly after he privately sent us this message which was preceded with the dox of a primedice employee: “Your offer is declined. Your demands are laughable. I’m happy to walk away and leave you be, but if you’re going to take this further, then so will I. I don’t think you want this to go further. I actually enjoy this shit. Your move. Oh, and by the way, there are some pending withdrawals that you need to process.” And that was the day the house didn’t win… Evidence for transparency and investigative purposes Hufflepuff’s deposit address: https://blockchain.info/address/1BiPXmDrHm7VXZnWy6NnW1ZbPc4dcpfkH5His primary withdrawal address: https://blockchain.info/address/14iS2UvcLK33xkC1K1qL1dhEbp49aiNfNpEmail: hufflepuff@anonymousspeech.comRobbinHood withdrawals: https://blockchain.info/address/14HQ67ZhmATviHi9RdYhbUriAGSFmJpYoB— Note — : Nappa/Kane were two other usernames used early on, amongst many others. Kane’s Withdrawal address: https://blockchain.info/address/18dMBap634aESPTeD3FGcAgJ2S9n4qtBTZNappa Deposit address: https://blockchain.info/address/16h9ggSzUWdvagEJdNvWVYiUkytw6SJgiBNappa email: kritonian@outlook.comSome IP’s used between accounts: 184.75.221.106, 184.75.223.34 , 151.224.50.156 , 76.179.22.16 Any information that leads to the return of the coins from this incident will be greatly rewarded. We invite you to analyze the above bitcoin addresses and find out where the bulk of the coins ended up if you have the skills. It’s also important to note that this incident is proof of the strength of our integrity and provably fair system. If at any point we attempted to rig Hufflepuff’s bets (skip nonces etc) we would have instantly realized he was cheating and we would have 2400+ more bitcoins. Hufflepuff only took a brief break from playing after we halved our max bet, I believe he would have cleaned us had we never discovered what was going on. Sorry for the long read, Stunna & Primedice Very interesting. Although it is too bad that more technical details were not revealed, and that it is too bad that he made away with so much money, it is nice to see that at least one bitcoin related casino is operating honestly. I would be curious to know if such an exploit would have been possible on PD2. If not then do you think it might have been better to have never "upgraded" to PD3, and simply added additional features to PD2? Although it is really not anyone's business, I am sure that many people are very curious as to what the overall profitability is of both PD overall, and PD3. One thing that was notably missing from the report was the bitcointalk account names that you are aware of for the people in question. I have noticed that you apparently have not left any negative trust ratings referencing what could be concluded to be this incident (although to be fair, a single negative rating is far from worth a million plus dollars). I would also be curious to know if you have any leads as to who you think the perpetrator might be or any other related leads regarding him. PD2 used a weaker provable fair system that featured a daily secret thus making it impossible to perform this on there. The simple fix was making it so no two accounts could have the same server seed hash. Also, I had a decent idea of who it was but honestly I wasn't able to 100% confirm it and there is pretty much nothing non-violent I could do to recover the funds. I haven't quite reached my mob boss potential I am no expert on provable fairness, however I think that players would probably be more comfortable with a daily secret, as opposed to a unique server seed. I think this would make it much easier for people to both understand and check that they are not being cheated after an " unlikely" loosing streak - all they would need to save is their client seed, and others could quickly vouch for what the server seed was on a particular day. I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that PD is cheating anyone, however I think a daily secret would allow the extortionists who try to claim that you are cheating to be more quickly be proven wrong, even without your involvement. If you have a good idea as to who it was, you could file a civil lawsuit in their jurisdiction against them. If you have sufficient evidence against them to allow for discovery, then you could possibly find additional information that supports your theory. Also it is very rare that someone will scam/steal only one time/from only one person, so if you go public as to who you think it was, along with more detailed facts as to why you think it was them, then it is possible that others may come forward similarly linking that person to other similar crimes which would only strengthen your case. If you are confident that this person in fact cashed out into fiat then I would say with a good amount of certainty that they used their RL identity to receive the fiat. It may have been possible to use a fake identity to receive smaller amounts of money, however I think the risk would be too great of not being able to ultimately access the fiat for amounts of a million dollars. |
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ranlo
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June 29, 2015, 05:29:39 AM |
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Not going to quote the story but... man, that was a great read (and it's long!). It amazes me that people even know how to do exploits like this. It's like the "double-spending" on Bitcoin and altcoins that has happened in the past. I understand WHAT's happening but wouldn't even know where to start in terms of making it happen (and therefore don't know how to stop it).
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arallmuus
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June 29, 2015, 05:49:20 AM |
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our main developer detected the exploit after we found a handful of accounts sharing the same server seed. It seems Dooglus guess was right on the nail ( as expected of him )https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=843892.msg11090891#msg11090891 If you have a good idea as to who it was, you could file a civil lawsuit in their jurisdiction against them. Judging from the several IP that is used throughout the process, it seems like this guy is no jokes at all and is prepared to take down the house. Filing a civil lawsuit isnt going to be a good idea as going into the legal way will eventually be a backfire to PrimeDice as well. This could cause the site to be inspected and of course it will be discovered as an illegal site (?) Im no expert in tracking blockchain, if it hits exchanger then Stunna could work secretly with the exchanger to get this Hufflepuff identity or such since Bitdice.me did the same way before ( they asked btc-e to hold the hacker withdrawal )
@Stunna : any estimation on how many BTC was lost ? I suspect that it is not hufflepuff and his alt alone that exploited this as there could be several fry that take advantages by withdrawing the small amount to make it less suspected. |
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Pony789
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June 29, 2015, 08:04:41 AM |
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Finally the official report is out. Thanks Stunna.
I got a problem after checking those addresses used by Hufflepuff and alts.
Kane’s Withdrawal address is 18dMBap634aESPTeD3FGcAgJ2S9n4qtBTZ, which according to walletexplorer.com, belongs to "MtGoxAndOthers". But how is that possible? Didn't Mtgox stop working long ago in Feb 2014?
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siwakotisaurav
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June 29, 2015, 08:12:56 AM |
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Finally the official report is out. Thanks Stunna.
I got a problem after checking those addresses used by Hufflepuff and alts.
Kane’s Withdrawal address is 18dMBap634aESPTeD3FGcAgJ2S9n4qtBTZ, which according to walletexplorer.com, belongs to "MtGoxAndOthers". But how is that possible? Didn't Mtgox stop working long ago in Feb 2014?
Maybe Mt. Gox is having his revenge after the hack  . JK , by the way thanks for the awesome report you(Primedice team) provided on the hack. Many of the other dice sites will now be aware of it , and patch it in time. |
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Gervais
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June 29, 2015, 11:53:30 AM
Last edit: June 29, 2015, 01:10:23 PM by Gervais |
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our main developer detected the exploit after we found a handful of accounts sharing the same server seed. It seems Dooglus guess was right on the nail ( as expected of him )https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=843892.msg11090891#msg11090891 If you have a good idea as to who it was, you could file a civil lawsuit in their jurisdiction against them. Judging from the several IP that is used throughout the process, it seems like this guy is no jokes at all and is prepared to take down the house. Filing a civil lawsuit isnt going to be a good idea as going into the legal way will eventually be a backfire to PrimeDice as well. This could cause the site to be inspected and of course it will be discovered as an illegal site (?) Yeah, PD probably already operates in a legal grey area as it's unregulated and probably doesn't have the appropriate gambling licensees. If you have information on who he might be it's worth investigating or getting someone to investigate for you. If caught and there's a good chance of him getting in trouble with the law or fears for his safety the he might return all or some of the funds. Im no expert in tracking blockchain, if it hits exchanger then Stunna could work secretly with the exchanger to get this Hufflepuff identity or such since Bitdice.me did the same way before ( they asked btc-e to hold the hacker withdrawal ) I doubt they know where the coins went after they were mixed either but if they do they should provide the info and maybe offer a bounty for potential leads. Edit: Just read the article above. addresses he cashed out to are linked at the bottom. I'm sure he mixed the coins before they went to their final destination, though. |
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unamis76
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June 29, 2015, 11:09:41 PM |
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The hufflepuff report as promised: https://medium.com/@Stunna/breaking-the-house-63f1021a3e6dDefinitely not the most interesting PD story, but probably the most expensive. It's proof of our naivety but also proof that we chose to play fair and lose a significant amount of money rather than attempt to cheat. Pretty interesting story, thank you for sharing! |
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Zaih
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June 30, 2015, 06:31:04 AM |
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Very interesting read, sorry about the loss Stunna. Hopefully someone comes forward with information in relation to the article.
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vennali
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#SWGT CERTIK Audited
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June 30, 2015, 06:44:06 AM |
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Judging from the several IP that is used throughout the process, it seems like this guy is no jokes at all and is prepared to take down the house. Filing a civil lawsuit isnt going to be a good idea as going into the legal way will eventually be a backfire to PrimeDice as well. This could cause the site to be inspected and of course it will be discovered as an illegal site (?)
Even if they are able to find out the person behind all this, wouldn't it potentially not stand in court because the person could deny everything and deny knowing anything about the same seeds on multiple acconts ? |
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FanEagle
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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
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June 30, 2015, 07:13:33 AM |
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Moreover, if they bring that man on court for that, it will even be re-examined the fact of bitcoin case, making it more denied by the government, and making it prohibited to play on sites like this one.
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arallmuus
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June 30, 2015, 07:18:32 AM |
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Judging from the several IP that is used throughout the process, it seems like this guy is no jokes at all and is prepared to take down the house. Filing a civil lawsuit isnt going to be a good idea as going into the legal way will eventually be a backfire to PrimeDice as well. This could cause the site to be inspected and of course it will be discovered as an illegal site (?)
Even if they are able to find out the person behind all this, wouldn't it potentially not stand in court because the person could deny everything and deny knowing anything about the same seeds on multiple acconts ? There's no point on bringing this to court or file a lawsuit as I believe most BTC gambling sites are now on the "dark sides" so bringing this matter into court will only bring much more damage to the site as that will be the same as exposing an "illegal site" to the court . Everything will be fine if Stunna will be able to locate the coins and get it back though however this is highly unlikely if the coins will be staying in a wallet instead of going through an exchanger Moreover, if they bring that man on court for that, it will even be re-examined the fact of bitcoin case, making it more denied by the government, and making it prohibited to play on sites like this one.
Much more damage to the sites than a benefit from it, yes |
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xadsa418
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June 30, 2015, 10:51:10 AM |
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prime dice is the best dice game
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DJ Crypto
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June 30, 2015, 10:56:23 AM
Last edit: June 30, 2015, 11:52:33 AM by DJ Crypto |
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Can someone explain me how is it possible that in a timeframe of 8 hours I got not one but two stricks of 20 high bets when I was betting low?
I repeat, 2 stricks of reds in over 20 bets placed busting my dice rolls!
How is it random rolls and how is it fair?
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arallmuus
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June 30, 2015, 11:04:05 AM |
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I repeat, 2 stricks streak of reds in over 20 bets placed busting my dice rolls! That is pretty common thing to have in PrimeDice actually How is it random rolls and how is it fair?
You need to know about provably fair. Basically provably fair prevent / make it harder for the house to cheat the rolls. The rolls number are generated randomly with a combination of server seed and client seed so Algorithm(Server seed + client seed) << Client seed will be whatever you wish to put in there and that means each time you change your client seed the roll number will be different For more knowledge about this visit http://dicesites.com/provably-fair and if you think you are being cheated you can verify the number here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier |
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LEVERAGE | │ | COMPETITIVE
FEES | │ | INSTANT
EXECUTION | │ | .
TRADE NOW |
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DJ Crypto
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June 30, 2015, 11:22:28 AM |
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I repeat, 2 stricks streak of reds in over 20 bets placed busting my dice rolls! That is pretty common thing to have in PrimeDice actually How is it random rolls and how is it fair?
Pretty common? So I am rolling with 49.50% chance to get that roll right on a low bet and you say its pretty common to have 20 rolls rolling above 49.50 on a 100 provability chance? |
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arallmuus
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June 30, 2015, 11:31:01 AM |
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you say its pretty common to have 20 rolls rolling above 49.50 on a 100 provability chance?
Indeed it is, this is not the first time someone posted here about 20 + loss streak and as a matter of fact alot of people has posted the same things over and over again so for me it is pretty common here ( you can check few posts back ). There is nothing wrong with it and you are just not "lucky" with your rolls . You will need to learn about provably fair ( I gave you the link above ) and you can always check wether your rolls are rigged or not . Simply follow the steps on the website to verify your rolls Here another link for you http://dicesites.com/tools and from the sites you can check that the probability to get 20x loss streak is about 0.00011637% . The number is close to zero but it is not impossible so with that being said, conclusion is that you are unlucky to have 20 + loss streak |
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FUTURES | | | | | | | │ | 1,000x
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FEES | │ | INSTANT
EXECUTION | │ | .
TRADE NOW |
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waterpile
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June 30, 2015, 11:40:57 AM |
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Can someone explain me how is it posddible that in a timeframe of 8 hours I got not one but two stricks of 20 high bets when I was betting low?
I repeat, 2 stricks of reds in over 20 bets placed busting my dice rolls!
How is it random rolls and how is it fair?
just verify your bets if you feel that you're being cheated because that is common to happen even if you play at other dice sites you will still experience the same thing.. it wouldn't be called gambling if you always expect to win. |
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