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Author Topic: [OLD] Eligius: ASIC, no registration, no fee CPPSRB BTC + 105% PPS NMC, 877 #  (Read 447429 times)
organofcorti
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January 31, 2014, 12:41:08 AM
 #3981

Back on topic:
3 questions about Eligius.

1) When I look at the payment queue I see at number 1 "2 weeks, 5 days, 20 hours and 14 minutes"
Why is the payment for the miner so late? Or do I misunderstand something?

2) I see "+105% PPS NMC" but where is the option to fill in my NMC address?

3) I read: "Miners may suggest messages for payout coinbases." Can someone explain this?

Maybe the questions look silly in the eyes of an experienced miner, but answering helps me and maybe lot of other people.

Thanks in advance!
1. That user just exceeded their minimum payment threshold, so they just got added into the payment queue. They haven't been in the queue two weeks.
2. Under My Eligius


3. That's awesome! I didn't realise Eligius did this! The coinbase message is a message encoded in the coinbase. I know that doesn't help much, but rather than OT this whole page, just check this link:

https://blockchain.info/tx/289dc441a8a29749b7b1eacbd036b8a0f708f66c40a289f3babfcc3854b5f635

(make sure you have the "Hide scripts & coinbase" unchecked)

If you look at the section marked "Coinbase" you'll see a bunch of alphanumerics and below that:

Quote
(decoded) �R EligiusR���mm�| �k#�ոk'   �ҿ��������� �U/s0test/�{��f

That's the decoded coinbase message. What I understand from your quote is that Eligius is considering allowing miners to add to the coinbase message - fantastic! You can get your little bit of bitcoin immortality right here.

(wizkid - if I'm wrong please don't embarrass me Smiley  )

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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sconklin321
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January 31, 2014, 01:22:58 AM
 #3982

just look at the numbers and try to explain how everyone isn't getting screwed ? You Mad Bro cause you got EXPOSED!!!!!these are blocks paid a couple  days ago and today
I'm not sure what you find confusing about that. You're signed up for PPLNS, so your reward is proportional to the number of blocks found. Shifts 14480 to 14488 were periods of low luck so there were less blocks found per unit time and the equivalent PPS is lower. 14449 to 14453 comparatively found many more blocks per unit time, so they paid more per share.

If you want 0 variance, sign up for PPS.
Look at the PPS the numbers don't Lie 17 blocks found today paid for 53  min round .0000000128410 per share 16 blocks today paid .0000000119444 blocks found paid
The day before 16 blocks found per round  the other day paid .00000001549055 for 40 min round  now if that was a 53 min round there would be roughly 1400000 shares paid at that price as opposed too 115000 shares paid  which those extra shares are now being paid the block under @ 15 block price of .00000001452400 pps but this is obviously over some peoples heads numbers and the PPS don't Lie it says what we are getting paid right there but hey nobody is stopping anyone from mining there if you want to work for LESS go for it!!

First off, I know I'm still fairly new to this, but shifts under PPLNS are determined by the number of shares submitted, not the amount of time.  Therefore the length of a round is irrelevant.  Rounds get shorter as hashing power for the pool increases, as hashing power increases so do blocks found.  So, in the long run, say the course of a day, week, month, your income will over all be the same irrelevant of the length of time each shift lasts. 

Second, when you mine for any pool under PPLNS, you will experience variance.  This is due to the fact that sometimes the pool gets lucky and finds a block in 10 minutes and sometimes it takes several hours.  The one thing you have under PPLNS rather than purely a proportional system per block, is you get paid for your shares over the course of several blocks which will help lower the variance.

The moral of the story here is that you don't look at income per share, but income over a period of time.  The only time income per share matters is under a pure PPS system where you get x per share you submit, regardless of the blocks being found.  This is riskier for pools, so most charge a higher fee, like BTC Guild's 7% vs. 3% PPLNS because they agree to pay you the same even when the pool gets unlucky.  So if you don't want to experience variance, you should switch your workers to use PPS vs. PPLNS  because it is the only way you'll get paid the same each time you find a share.
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January 31, 2014, 01:31:09 AM
 #3983

Well thank god for that notice that just appeared about the "AUTO-NOTICE: The CPPSRB reward system appears to be in fail-safe mode."  I was just about to post about my stats seeming to be frozen.

I'm a fan of self control, but only in moderation.
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January 31, 2014, 01:34:33 AM
 #3984

First off, I know I'm still fairly new to this, but shifts under PPLNS are determined by the number of shares submitted, not the amount of time.  Therefore the length of a round is irrelevant.  Rounds get shorter as hashing power for the pool increases, as hashing power increases so do blocks found.  So, in the long run, say the course of a day, week, month, your income will over all be the same irrelevant of the length of time each shift lasts.  

Second, when you mine for any pool under PPLNS, you will experience variance.  This is due to the fact that sometimes the pool gets lucky and finds a block in 10 minutes and sometimes it takes several hours.  The one thing you have under PPLNS rather than purely a proportional system per block, is you get paid for your shares over the course of several blocks which will help lower the variance.

The moral of the story here is that you don't look at income per share, but income over a period of time.  The only time income per share matters is under a pure PPS system where you get x per share you submit, regardless of the blocks being found.  This is riskier for pools, so most charge a higher fee, like BTC Guild's 7% vs. 3% PPLNS because they agree to pay you the same even when the pool gets unlucky.  So if you don't want to experience variance, you should switch your workers to use PPS vs. PPLNS  because it is the only way you'll get paid the same each time you find a share.

Nice to see someone fairly new that actually has read up on these things and understands them.  What you've posted is extremely close to the explanation I gave on the forum and BTC Guild news post.  One tiny correction: the per share rate "does matter", in that BTC Guild's PPLNS system also provides you a number showing how much any given share was paid in that shift.  It does so because some people like to compare what they're earning on PPLNS directly against PPS.  Obviously the per share rate varies dramatically from shift to shift by luck, but it's just something people have requested to be visible.

The rest of your post is spot on though.  The length of shifts mean *nothing* in the long run.  They simply control the minimum and maximum expected values of a given shift.  Longer shifts = reduced maximum and increased minimum, squeezing the expected variance into a narrower band on the chart.  Longer shifts means the amount paid to each share when a block is solved goes down, but the length of the shift means you will likely see more blocks found before the shift is closed, which ends up being a wash.  Overall, the only thing that matters is pool luck during the time you're mining, the shifts are just an accounting method used to allocate + audit your fair share of the pool's blocks.
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January 31, 2014, 01:59:04 AM
 #3985

So, I realize that I've only got like -4 posts on these boards, and no cred  Cry, and I'm not sure that I understand PPLNSQWERTY system (actually, I can read and it's been explained a few times in this thread and in a few ways and to prove no grasp on rules of grammar, I just committed a run-on sentence infraction and omitted an article where it was technically needed), but can someone tell me - not that there's an obligation: When the fuck did this become the BTC Guild thread? lol

JewelTheif, or whatever you're called... Post that shit on the proper board, or at a different board where it doesn't belong. I'm cool with either. I want to read updates from WK about how I'm not losing any shares (I'm not, am I?*), and not read about your complaints with the dude who runs a pool I'm not even using. No offense BTC Guild guy. It's a lovely setup you have over there. And as for JewelryStore, I'm 99.99999999999999% you're not getting fucked over. Since we are talking about the world of BTC, I obviously can't say that it's 100% the case that you're not. Still, it's pretty fucking unlikely. Now, please go elsewhere while I wait on WK. Thank you, and may fortune smile upon you.


*Question meant as rhetorical tool for humor. Do not take seriously.
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January 31, 2014, 02:02:26 AM
 #3986

My apologies to wizkid.  I wouldn't have responded at all if this user's posts weren't pointed out in my thread.  This kind of derailment is why I had my thread converted to self-moderated, but I also won't let somebody hide in another thread spouting provably false information.
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January 31, 2014, 02:03:43 AM
 #3987

Easy guys

Well thank god for that notice that just appeared about the "AUTO-NOTICE: The CPPSRB reward system appears to be in fail-safe mode."  I was just about to post about my stats seeming to be frozen.

The notice disappeared but my stats still show the same balance, I guess it's processing the backlog now...

EDIT: it's all good now
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January 31, 2014, 02:04:37 AM
 #3988

Well thank god for that notice that just appeared about the "AUTO-NOTICE: The CPPSRB reward system appears to be in fail-safe mode."  I was just about to post about my stats seeming to be frozen.

Hmmm, the red message has gone away now but my stats are still frozen.
Never mind, it's time for bed.
I'm sure it will look better in the morning.
NNST.

If you think I deserve it - BTC always welcome - 14GkxT2xcpgvGVBgMjtGeFiXrxnttBSRRF
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January 31, 2014, 02:10:43 AM
 #3989

My apologies to wizkid.  I wouldn't have responded at all if this user's posts weren't pointed out in my thread.  This kind of derailment is why I had my thread converted to self-moderated, but I also won't let somebody hide in another thread spouting provably false information.

No, man, it's all good. You have a right to defend yourself the last I checked. I just want the dude to chill out with that noise. He was getting slammed down already for being windy. Points were made, tears were shed, hugs were given... The guy called you a scammer, or at least called your pool a scam (I'd love 0.0000001 BTC for every time that word, or any variation thereof, was used at this site), so you had to spell out why it's not. Nobody should should fault you for that. The other guy lit the flame.
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January 31, 2014, 02:40:27 AM
 #3990

This will be my last post on the subject but your under the assumption a miner would stay 24 Hours a day so therefor it doesnt make a difference? I and many other  miners don't stand 24 hours why would any miner want to stay during losing blocks times?lol  so the times mining there's more chance of finding blocks in 50 min and catching a good streak then 40 min just look at numbers today you never get 21 finds in a 40 min block and now shifts increase and it magically happens ! I rest my case...........

Your either part of THE SOLUTION?Or your part of THE PROBLEM!
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January 31, 2014, 02:51:04 AM
 #3991

This will be my last post on the subject but your under the assumption a miner would stay 24 Hours a day so therefor it doesnt make a difference? I and many other  miners don't stand 24 hours why would any miner want to stay during losing blocks times?lol  so the times mining there's more chance of finding blocks in 50 min and catching a good streak then 40 min just look at numbers today you never get 21 finds in a 40 min block and now shifts increase and it magically happens ! I rest my case...........

The expected value of your share is the same.  Always.  It doesn't matter what the shift settings are.  It doesn't matter what the pool speed is.  The expected value of a share never changes.  Pool luck is the ONLY thing that affects the realized value on your shares.  This is true on *EVERY* payment system except PPS, where the realized value is static regardless of pool luck.

Count the blocks BTC Guild solved yesterday.  Count the blocks it solved today.  It's a hell of a lot more, which is exactly why yesterday's payments sucked and todays have not.

Stay in school kids, otherwise you'll look like this moron.
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January 31, 2014, 03:11:00 AM
 #3992

My apologies to wizkid.  I wouldn't have responded at all if this user's posts weren't pointed out in my thread.  This kind of derailment is why I had my thread converted to self-moderated, but I also won't let somebody hide in another thread spouting provably false information.

No worries.  I hate people (even people without a clue) spreading false information period.  Feel free to jump in whenever needed.

---

Sorry for the lack of attention to the thread.  Been keeping busy with the pool, work, and other RL projects.

I'll try to address some things I see since I last posted.

---

That's awesome! I didn't realise Eligius did this! The coinbase message is a message encoded in the coinbase. I know that doesn't help much, but rather than OT this whole page, just check this link:
*snip*
What I understand from your quote is that Eligius is considering allowing miners to add to the coinbase message - fantastic! You can get your little bit of bitcoin immortality right here.

Eligius has always let people suggest text for the next block's coinbase text.  (Not many have recently)

Merged mining + 'Eligius' tag + extranonces take up a good chunk of the coinbase text, but, there is some room left. Smiley  I have been working on several different methods where the coinbase text for the next block can be chosen by miners in a more automated way, possibly some type of queue.  There has been some demand for it, so hopefully have some more details on that soon, since it should be fun.  On a side note, Eligius miners using GBT have been able to append the coinbase text using bfgminer's coinbase-sig option for any blocks they find.

---

The payout queue has nothing to do with luck directly.  Basically, when a block is found, miners are rewards for that block under CPPSRB.  At the same time, the system tries very hard every block to include payouts to miners who have reached the minimum payout as per the payout queue.  If every block were able to do this, the queue would almost never deviate from 1 block deep.  However, occasionally different fail-safes will prevent the system from including automatic payouts in the block directly and instead sends the block reward to the pool's offline wallet.  Miners are still rewarded for this block under CPPSRB as normal, but since no miners were actually paid yet the queue grows by about a block (depending on how many miners get pushed over the minimum payout by this block's rewards).

When the queue gets long I ask CPPSRB for a sendmany transaction to submit using the cold/offline wallet funds to pay off the payout queue, catching everything up instantly and getting us back to only 1 block or less of people in queue.  I do many checks on this data before submitting it to make sure that everything appears sane, so, I try to wait a bit between manual payouts because they are a little time consuming.

---

I didn't notice it in the FAQ, but does the Maximum Reward line in the graph represent the 100% PPS earnings? Should the pool go on a run of faster blocks and clear its payout queue, will the unpaid + everpaid line reach the max reward line?

Yes... And no.

Each time you submit a share, the pool records it in the share log, at it's straight PPS value. When a block is found, 25 BTC worth of shares (starting from the most recent) are paid.

If the pool is unlucky, and it took more shares than average to find the block, some of the shares submitted for that block cannot be paid (since the pool does not have the money to cover them). The pool "remembers" those shares; they are shelved.

If the pool gets lucky, and it took less shares than average to find a block, pool will have some BTC left after paying every share submitted for that block. It will therefore pay whats left to the most recent shelved shares.


However, paying everybody like that in every block would be a problem: First, small miners would only get micropayments in every block; and it would be dust that accumulates in their wallet (and increases their fees when they use the coins). Second, some clients have a bug in which that cannot support a too big amount of outputs per transaction. (Doing payments like that in Eligius would cause more than 5000 output per transaction)

Therefore, Eligius implements a sort of tradeoff. Instead of directly paying the shares when they are found; it internally computes which shares are to be paid, and which shares are not (yet), without actually sending the money to the miner. Instead, it holds onto them until a given amount is accumulated (chosen by the miner), at which time the pool will send the coins.

Therefore, it means that even if the pool were to empty it's payout queue, it does not mean that everybody's shares ever submitted have been paid. It does mean, however, that nobody has accumulated enough rewarded-but-unpaid shares to be paid. (In those cases, the pool sends the block reward to an offline wallet, from which the miners will be paid when the payout queue gets long enough.)


Thus, about the graphs and stats:
The everpaid line is amount of BTC the pool has ever sent to you.
The unpaid+everpaid line is that amount, plus the value of all the shares the pool has rewarded to you, but has not set the actual money yet, because you have not met your threshold. (the unpaid amount is the amount marked in the "unpaid balance" in the table above the graph)
The maximum reward line is the total value of all the shares you ever submitted to the pool, including those it does not have the funds to pay yet.

If the pool gets lucky, "unpaid+everpaid" will get closer to "maximum reward", and may even touch it. However, they would not "meet" at the same time for all users, depending when that user joined. Most recent shelved shares being paid first, the pool would have to be lucky a lot longer to pay all the way back to 2012, when the pool began, than to pay all the shares of somebody who started one month ago.


However, nobody's payment will ever go above "maximum reward": once all your shares have been paid, all the extra coins go to paying other who have to yet been fully paid. Finally even if the pool were to clear it's whole backlog, then it would hold onto the extra coins until less lucky times.

^ This is a pretty good explanation.  Thanks.  (Yes, I dropped the end part about initial pool-wide bad luck since it could be confusing/misleading without the proceeding post)

----

Side note, looking into doing that self moderated thread now. Cheesy

-wk

Tips: 1LDQrLr6dPVqNJmpZm82eZVKqDFRk7ERW8
Operator of the Eligius Mining Pool - 0% Fee, SAPPLNS, GBT, Stratum, IRC+Phone Support, Share Market (coming soon), Generation payouts, and more.
Don't feed the trolls. Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic (1)
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January 31, 2014, 03:21:34 AM
 #3993

This thread is now locked and replaced with the new Eligius thread which can be found here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441465.0

Tips: 1LDQrLr6dPVqNJmpZm82eZVKqDFRk7ERW8
Operator of the Eligius Mining Pool - 0% Fee, SAPPLNS, GBT, Stratum, IRC+Phone Support, Share Market (coming soon), Generation payouts, and more.
Don't feed the trolls. Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic (1)
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